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Ideas for constructive Immigration methods for Poland.


Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
14 May 2011  #1
Well, I am Pro-Humanist and immigration always, but it is only reasonable to have some rules for such matters. Do you not judge a person before making friends? Do you not investigate before getting into a marriage? Do you not read properly before coming into a business deal? I think we all should do it.

There cannot be room for shady people. Sorry. No, not being unfair, but I say the same for the hooligan and frauds of my own country who are disturbing Poles or citizens of other countries where they immigrate and should respect their laws and also common human decency.

I think immigration is positive, but with proper streamlining of the rules, such as:

The best solution is to have better working immigration policy when it comes to Poland. As I repeatedly say, it should be students who are brought in, along with skilled workers and investors (if they wish).

1. The focus on "certain amount of money in the bank" must be repealed, as this only takes away focus from other stuff.

2. Medical checkup of infectious and incurable diseases such as HIV and others must be done without delay. However, physical disabilities should not be judged unfairly, unless there is someone with enough potential to take care of that person.

3. Students must be given full priority (even welcomed with open arms), while skilled workers can come if they get employment, and investors may stay in Poland if they invest in acceptable manners and margins.

4. Student recruiting "agents" from abroad must be BANNED. Students who can use their own intelligence to contact Universities in our countries and then get accepted can come! Also, our Universities must get in contact with Universities from other Eastern or America or any other nation (you name it) through affiliations, exchange programs etc ... so that valid/genuine students can make efforts themselves to try and enroll here if they wish to live here or work or study.


etc ...

In this way we get genuine students. These people are must more capable and integrate absolutely easily to the host country, and make it home (only if they prefer to do so).

I can tell you that out of a few foreign students I remember, only 6 of them preferred to stay in Poland and got married to Poles, and have children and are doing quite fine. With their talent, I believe they would do just as well in any other country in the world, including theirs. This is because in their country there is enough opportunity for people with their education ... also they can buy all luxuries in their home. However, in special reasons (e.g. taste to live in Poland, a special liking developed for Poland, or a relationship they fell into while in Poland) they actually prefer to live in this country. As a result, it is very natural.

There was an Egyptian friend among these genuine students, who returned to Egypt after his course was over. Didn't even try to stay back.

There were a few others who moved to UK. They were not really serious students, and entered showing money and through AGENTS.

I know and befriended those six who are really good people ... but there are more I have an idea of, who have done well in Poland or returned to their countries as they are quite capable anywhere.

NOW THIS IS NORMAL AND NATURAL. It is WE who often start the problem with our policies. Why come into contract with foreign student recruiting agents? Why not come in contact with REAL UNIVERSITIES and leave it to capable students who can find their way into our Universities themselves? I can tell you that those who can do that, are truly refined people with good brains.

After these measures ... the unskilled, trouble maker (we have our hooligans, same way they have theirs ... and both are loads on any nation), useless and fake folks can stay out.

Plus, our law and order situation must constantly be updated.

This way ... we are not racist, we are only being responsible.

In this new world, Poland needs to integrate to the world aswell. No we cannot SIMPLE CANNOT afford or need a shut down.

Our Universities must allow better Scholarships and keep seats for foreign students, specially from developing nations.

Open borders is my ultimate wish ... but no border or nation or society can be open for crime. Open borders for those who are genuine and worthy. The world is closed to hooligans (from both sides).

IF YOU THINK YOU CAN ADD ANY "REASONABLE" NON-RACIST and NON-CHAOTIC/XENOPHOBIC IDEAS TO THE POLICIES, PLEASE DO. I THINK I CAN WHOLEHEARTEDLY WELCOME MY FRIENDS FROM OTHER NATIONALITIES SUCH AS INDIA, CHINA, KOREA, BANGLADESH, IRAN, EGYPT, SOUTH AMERICA, USA ... ETC (SORRY IF I MISSED ANY) CAN CONTRIBUTE POSITIVELY TOO, BECAUSE I KNOW I HAVE NOT BEEN UNFAIR AGAINST THEM. ITS FAIR FOR ALL THAT GOOD PEOPLE ENSURE THEIR VALIDITY AND SAFETY :).
Polsyr 6 | 771
14 Oct 2011  #2
Very well said!

Some promotions wouldn't hurt. American, Canadian and British (not to mention Australian and even French and German) universities send educational missions all over the world to introduce people (particularly from developing nations) to their educational systems and opportunities...

You gain immensely when an intelligent human being comes to your country to learn and then becomes an active part of your society.

People tend to underestimate how far this goes towards helping their own nations develop and prosper.
hythorn 3 | 580
14 Oct 2011  #3
a good topic

there ought to be a points system
education, ability to speak the language, lack of criminal record, money in the bank count for you

what gets my goat is asylum seekers claiming that they have to leave their home country for fear of
being killed but then six months later return to that country to go on holiday.

does nobody think that this is a bit odd?

expanding on Lodz's original theme it would be good for the universities to work in closer cooperation with
local employers and build links

the employer gains by getting some free low level consultancy and can get the pick of the litter by hiring the brightest students
and the student actually does something practical for once

I know it happens in Warsaw with the university and some of the more enlightened employers but they are mainly just after interns
PWEI 3 | 612
14 Oct 2011  #4
I'd like to see the same standards being used for students on the Polish language and the English language programs.
legend 3 | 669
14 Oct 2011  #5
A liberals ideas:
If it doesnt fit their agenda its racist/xenophobic.

Europe needs to close the damn borders.

Why are white countries the only ones in this world that allow mass immigration from third world hell holes?
White guilt.

Why are homogeneous countries like Japan doing just fine?
No immigration.
Cornelius
14 Oct 2011  #6
Actually Japan is expected to have problems since not enough young people are going to fill the positions of retired workers. It's why they're considering ways to encourage immigration.
hythorn 3 | 580
14 Oct 2011  #7
Why are white countries the only ones in this world that allow mass immigration from third world hell holes?
White guilt.

what is the name of tarnation do Poles have to feel guilty about?
did Poles wipe out American Indian tribes... erm nope
did Poles have colonies in Africa... erm another resounding no

Why are homogeneous countries like Japan doing just fine?
No immigration.

oh they are doing just dandy
their economy tanked in the early 90s and still has not recovered

rather than spending billions of euros trying to keep immigrants out, why not spend some of that money trying to
create stability in their home countries?
half the people from Sierre Leone in Europe would not be there if it were not for the fact that they would have had their hands

chopped off if they had stayed at home.
Better an emigree than an amputee, I always say

and what when they have kids? the kids won't know if they are Polish or African or Tupac Shakur

Europe is filling up with immigrants but we are not being selective in the ones we are taking and are doing nothing
to stem the flow by trying to stabilise their home countries
Polsyr 6 | 771
14 Oct 2011  #8
And Canada was not built by immigrants? You just gotta love the rednecks on web forums EH.
Trevek 26 | 1,703
16 Oct 2011  #9
Why are homogeneous countries like Japan doing just fine?
No immigration.

Funny, I heard they had a lot of filipino migrant workers.
JonnyM 11 | 2,622
16 Oct 2011  #10
I heard they had a lot

Yes. There's a huge number of foreigners who've settled in Japan.
OP Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
18 Aug 2012  #11
youtube.com/watch?v=NK0Y9j_CGgM

It is an interesting link to study. I would recommend it.

I think we in Poland are not aiming for following the American model, rather we would benefit from the experiences of other nations for our development. It is important that we forecast our future labor shortage, and need of intellect and skills and take the advantage from pools of talent across the globe.

feel guilty

Its not about guilt or anything. Its about strategising and using ones own sovereignty to shape the destiny of ones own country. As a global community we would love to share experiences, but eventually take our own decisions.

Educated Poles in their majority wish the country would be a little more diverse :) ... but more important, benefit from the Global pool of intellectual capacity.
rankalee 2 | 56
18 Aug 2012  #12
I guess, in Germany, when there wasnt internet, some worldopened students thought the same like you .

Today we got that here.

80 Million inhabitants, 20 Million with foreign roots ... Common German has got 0-1 children, common foreigner 3-4 .. there are studys for that.

So ... lets really think about it, how to bring foreigners to Poland! Very good idea!! :D:D

PS: Foreign students in Poland ... they live in hotels for free, they have free education, while young Poles have to work for cheap salary in KFC or drive in their holidays to work in the Netherlands in a factory, to earn money for study??
OP Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
18 Aug 2012  #13
I guess, in Germany

Germany has many immigrants who are not students. I will not accept your argument because I've made some wonderful friends who are doing excellent in Poland, and one recently had success in his business and now creates jobs in which he employs a few Poles in RELEVANT fields of their study (which is rare these days for job seekers in Poland).

If someone get a scholarship, they deserve the facilities you mentioned. This can go with Polish students too, if they do well in their studies. A higher level of competition can do benefit to our community, not harm.

To get a scholarship is not something a hooligan can get. Its a tough thing.

Poles still have a better chance with our education system. Study our system before making a comment.
rankalee 2 | 56
18 Aug 2012  #14
I know, that every bum ... EVERYBODY is able to study in Poland and thats the reason, many craft enterprises etc. have to close ...

But you are just a student,you think you are a rebel, you got your ass kicked by some LKS or Widzew lads or you have been for vacation in a west country and now you have some dreams .. nothing will change in Poland and you know it most, or you wouldnt start this thread.
Bieganski 17 | 906
18 Aug 2012  #15
The call for immigration to fill whatever gaps exist in Polish society fails to address why such gaps exist in the first place. If Polish schools are not turning out educated students with the right skill set or if Poles are put off from starting families or are having fewer children then there is a more deep rooted problem and bringing in immigrants will not solve it. Immigrants to Poland are very likely to have or want to start their own families. If the schools in Poland are bad then how will the immigrant children benefit? They won't. If immigrants are more willing to do any work at lower wages this will not spur economic growth but keep it flat.

The quick but short-term fix approach is simply to bring in even more immigrants and thus ignore the issues that are disincentivizing indigenous Poles from reaching their own maximum potential in life and at home in Poland. Even the video about the H-1B visa in America (a densely populated, multi-cultural, multi-racial country) demonstrates that theirs is a policy of treading water. It is an admission that they can't or won't develop enough home grown talent but instead continuously rely on the rest of the world to provide it. Such an approach reminds of the expression of having "brains on tap not on top".

Furthermore, since Poland is part of the EU any labor shortages should have been filled by citizens from other EU states. But the OP overlooks this and instead advocates immigration from non-EU countries instead. Why? The OP has admitted elsewhere on PF that his wife is Korean so he does not come to this topic from an unbiased viewpoint.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
18 Aug 2012  #16
The call for immigration to fill whatever gaps exist in Polish society fails to address why such gaps exist in the first place.

I would be very interested to hear how you would propose to fill the gaps found when the local workers simply don't want to do the jobs?

The amount of Ukrainians that have found work in Poland would be a good place to start.
Bieganski 17 | 906
18 Aug 2012  #17
I would be very interested to hear how you would propose to fill the gaps found when the local workers simply don't want to do the jobs?

This is the routine script parroted by those with a race to the bottom mentality which was forged generations ago by those who ran British sweatshops and American plantations.

Local workers often decline jobs because the wages are too low. Locals want to stay in their community and grow along with it. This can't happen on slave wages. This is why in your example you mention Ukrainians finding work in Poland but not locals or citizens from elsewhere in the EU. A low wage in Poland is still higher than many found in Ukraine or other non-EU countries. And exchange rates definitely make up for any hardships endured. Furthermore, it can't be the nature of the jobs because otherwise the Ukrainians and other foreigners would be back home doing the same line of work at comparative wages and there would be no need for them to go all the way to Poland to do it.

Therefore Polish politicians should be finding more ways to lower costs for companies in Poland (such as tax levels or regulations) while at the same time denying them easy access to cheap non-EU labor. If any businesses decide to close or leave Poland over this then it is only cutting to the chase. Wage increase demands are inevitable so Poland should not bother with companies whose only motive is short term profits. There are companies leaving or avoiding China entirely to set up shop in places like Viet Nam and the Philippines because they regard China as too expensive now. Who would have thought that just a few years ago? Ah yes but you would argue the companies had no choice but to leave since the locals didn't want to do the jobs and the Chinese have too strict of an immigration policy. Yeah, sure.

Another reality about locals not wanting to do the jobs is that many times they are locked out from doing them. Yes the employers are ultimately to blame but so too are the existing employees since many vacancies are inside knowledge and are still passed word of mouth so it is no surprise you see certain nationalities or ethnic groups dominating certain sectors in any economy around the world. This aspect has nothing to do with skill level or willingness to work at lower wages. It's called hiring your own kind.
OP Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
18 Aug 2012  #18
But you are just a student

I used to be... once. A good one at that.

I have my own business, a wife and a daughter now. I think I've travelled and I've lived in my own country since long enough to propose such a change. Every change is very much possible.

If you read the first post (topic post), then you will find it easier to understand that I am talking about an immigration rule which will bring "good" immigration and keep out the bad. The bad ones far outnumber the good. It controls the whole process and tries to make it easier for the goods to come to Poland if they wish.

The call for immigration to fill whatever gaps exist in Polish society fails to address why such gaps exist in the first place.

We will go the way nature goes, but in the best possible way. Whether we put better laws or not, immigration will happen. Its the law of nature and the way mankind always progressed. Thus, our best chances for future is to have a good system in place for the best chances to have the best immigrants possible.

Most who immigrated to Poland have married among Poles. This makes me feel that eventually all will be Polonized :)
Bieganski 17 | 906
18 Aug 2012  #19
I think I've travelled and I've lived in my own country since long enough to propose such a change.

Yes, but you still speak for yourself not the other 38 million Poles.

I am talking about an immigration rule which will bring "good" immigration and keep out the bad.

You assume "good" immigrants will always be that way. Not so. For instance, you don't want proof that they have enough funds to support themselves so where should the money come from if they become indebted and cannot pay their own way? Don't say Poles will need to have their taxes raised to accommodate them. Also, did you know that many homeless people used to be working middle class professionals? As far as incurable diseases being used to screen out the "bad" from the "good" are you suggesting immigrants should be deported if they contract HIV or a terminal form of cancer while residing in Poland? Some come down with these diseases and don't realize it until many months after they are infected. What is your time window?

We will go the way nature goes,

You say immigration is natural but want it regulated by your own made-up manmade rules. Listen, I imagine being an immigrant can be a very lonely experience and that is why it comes as no surprise to see immigrants and immigrant families push for more of it. You simply want affirmation from the rest of society that your own personal lifestyle choice was correct. You have doubts and that's OK. You should just admit that you do.

Most who immigrated to Poland have married among Poles. This makes me feel that eventually all will be Polonized :)

The whole premise of your argument is that Poles are lacking and so there needs to be more immigrants to change the landscape. So why bother with the notion of Polonization if Poles themselves have such innate failings? If you are to be believed then Polonization can't be good for anyone.

Anyway, what's your take on Korea? Too homogenous? Facing its own demographic time bomb and therefore in desperate and immediate need of immigration from the third world? Frankly, this may be polishforms but Poland can't be the only nation on Earth to be constantly singled out on here for some genocidal social experiment while other nations and cultures are kept under a glass case.
OP Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
18 Aug 2012  #20
Yes, but you still speak for yourself not the other 38 million Poles.

I know more Poles than you do. To begin with, I am one. More? My forefathers have fought for this land and its freedom.

Even more is that I belong to a family which has been involved with the way Poland moves forward with time since a long period of time.

I've been involved with many student associations throughout my student life, and found that the few international students we had would find ways to earn a living. They do manage funds from home too, however, to disclose record amounts of money does not ensure anything, but only gives scope to the rougue and not to a true student who is not supposed to have such alarming amount of money at that stage of life. Certainly, I believe that to disclose so much fund is useless, rather a better law enforcement and more opportunities is the key. This also opens the door of cooperation between Poles and the international students. This widens the horizons of knowledge and understanding.

Some come down with these diseases and don't realize it until many months after they are infected

I mentioned that before getting a VISA, they must get cleared on the critical illness/disease check. After coming to Poland if they contract those diseases here, then they should get medical attention like any other Pole. But before entering, they need to be cleared. Thats all.

regulated

By this we can make an attempt to secure the best from the rest. It is worth a try.

The whole premise of your argument is that Poles are lacking

Absolutely wrong. Thus the rest of the things you wrote after this is null.
rankalee 2 | 56
18 Aug 2012  #21
You talk about students and to be honest ... most students are some weird people, who think, they can change the world .. but please wake up .. you can not change anything .. and there are millions of people who are not intrested in any student . multicultural stuff .. let them live. They live a harder life than in the west, most of them are full of debts etc. .. do they leave the country because they feel so good in Poland or what??

And then should come some foreigners, because they are students?? Egypt, Arabian or African students are not even the same level as German "Hauptsch├╝ler" .. (Hauptschule is the worst school in Germany ... btw full of Arabs .. ) Why these foreigners deserve a better life standard then Polish inhabitants?? Why they should live for free in some of the best hotels, why they are getting free education in a post-communistic country??

I am glad, most people there dont think like you .. what not means, they think the opposite .. they just care about their own life ..

Poland is ready for foreigners and multculturism, when at the marsz niepodleglosci are less than 60 000 people .. cause in similar German marches are not even more than 200 people ..

Patriotism and Multiculturism dont fit together and there are too many patriots in Poland.
Bieganski 17 | 906
18 Aug 2012  #22
Absolutely wrong. Thus the rest of the things you wrote after this is null.

I'm not wrong at all. It's very clear what you wrote and it is no surprise that you don't like being challenged by anyone regarding it. This explains why you avoided responding to nearly all of the points I raised and asked you to answer.

Like I stated before you do not have a neutral position on this topic. You are biased for very personal reasons and you absolutely fail to understand that because of this you do not speak on behalf or in the interest of other Poles. Your generalities about your own unremarkable experiences in life and the supposed accomplishments of your ancestors mean nothing. And why should they when considering you are such an advocate for social change? You can't have it both ways.

Your position on how Poland should "move forward" along with the high regard you have for your own self-importance remind me of the communist era: totally discredited social engineering forced fed by personality cult party members who were the only ones to reap any benefits while proclaiming their programs were for the good of the whole of the society even while society was suffering because of it. Well, we all know how that ended.

Poland already has mechanisms to attract workers and students from fellow EU states. Poland needs to make this work since it is the established legal process. Poland doesn't need to throw open its borders to the rest of the world simply because you decided to marry a woman from Korea. That's your personal business and it is arrogant of you to believe it should now become the template for all other Poles to start following.

If you really are so pro-immigration like you claim then you should go spend the rest of your life in Korea with your family. You can set up an immigration assistance and settlement program over there. But you won't because doing so wouldn't fit into your agenda.

You are living in denial if you think others don't see that the "pro-humanist" label you carry is very small indeed.
OP Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
18 Aug 2012  #23
why they are getting free education in a post-communistic country??

They are not. But Scholarships go to deserving student, and we have very few of them even, This must increase. Your hotel stuff goes over my head. I don't know what you are talking about.

If you really are so pro-immigration like you claim then you should go spend the rest of your life in Korea

Where are you from Bieganski? USA or UK?

By the way, I am a Polish and this reason is enough for me to think of Poland and its future. S Korea is a much developed nation, more than many in Europe including us Poles. It has its own immigration policies, and it benefits with a model of massive scholarship schemes to genuine and intellectual students. Please check the policies on education of the Asian Tigers (Korea is one of them).

I am not biased. Had I been, I would echo the opening of all borders without rules or regulations like many of my pro immigration POLISH friends ask for. Yes, they are just as Polish as I am or any other so called ETHNIC Pole is.

My family is my bloodline, and they have been such that I can remember and be proud of. This is perfectly normal, and should be something to treasure. Something that people with family and roots understand.

I mentioned in my Topic that only reasonable comments can make itself worthy. Comments fueled with other racist or primitive mentality issues is really not even worth a pity since the Norway shooting incident.

Every country benefits from highly skilled and diverse minds as part of their community. We Poles would want the same. Incase you, from your computer in USA, didn't know .... Poland historically have been a very welcoming country, and that is a part of our culture. In the modern world, we would like to build on it with new settlers who are willing to add to our values and build our intellectual capacity.

EU does not just comprise of whites, there are many ethnicities which are a part of modern day Europe. This is a reality which cannot be denied by any sane human. This is the reality of tomorrow's world and Europe.

While I mention immigration, I include not only Egyptian, Indian, or Asians ... but also other nationalities from Americas to Oceania. ANYONE. Even from outer space :).

If your agenda is a far right agenda, this is certainly not your thread. Its a thread which is pro immigration but discussing ways to make it more valuable for Poland. Anti Imigration sentiments are out of its framework. There are hundreds of threads in PF about those agendas, and you can very well post in them. However, if you have anything that can add value to an immigration policy common to the whole world for Poland (and not apartheid type, of segregationalistic kind of thing), you may mention in a good structured manner. Everyone would be delighted to read and analyse. BUT IT SEEMS YOU DONT.
RevokeNice 15 | 1,860
18 Aug 2012  #24
But Scholarships go to deserving student, and we have very few of them even, This must increase

Must it, indeed. Typical lefty nonsense. Why don't you sponsor a student? Pay for it yourself.

Where do the three million citizens who have left your country since 2004 come in all this?
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
18 Aug 2012  #25
Local workers often decline jobs because the wages are too low.

So they claim. The reality is often far different, as anyone who remembers Britain in 2003 knows. Then, middle class women would never dream of applying for part time jobs in local supermarkets - but when the crisis hit, suddenly they were swamped with applicants. It is a sad, uncomfortable truth that there will always be a part of society that simply doesn't want to work. It doesn't matter what wages are on offer, unless they really have no other choice. And Poland is not such a poor country that the parents can't subsidise layabout children.

Locals want to stay in their community and grow along with it.

What gives them the right to stay in their community by accident of birth? I have to move to where the work is, so why shouldn't they?

And if Polish companies benefit from reduced costs, do you think they're really going to pass this on to the workers? The only way to ensure this would be to introduce a law demanding that workers receive a certain percentage of profits - which would scream of socialism and wouldn't go down well in today's capitalist Poland. Not to mention that no company is going to invest in a country where workers have such an arrangement.

Another reality about locals not wanting to do the jobs is that many times they are locked out from doing them.

I will return to the issue of Warsaw. There are many, many Ukrainians doing jobs there that the Poles simply don't want to do - why do you think, for instance, that Ukrainian cleaners are preferred over Poles? The only Poles that want to do that kind of job there are the kind that you don't want inside your house.

At the end of the day, there will always be people in society who simply don't want to work.
Bieganski 17 | 906
18 Aug 2012  #26
@Lodz_The_Boat

You should take the time to read and comprehend my posts before simply reacting to them.

So I'll try again in this simplified response:

Poland is a member of the EU. Do you understand? OK.

The EU has laws in place for its citizens to legally resettle and work anywhere within its member states. Still following or do I need to start over?

If Poland needs immigrants like you advocate there are millions of them already within the EU to draw upon. Many are even unemployed at the moment and looking for work. They are in Spain, Greece, Italy, the UK, France, Germany, Romania, etc., etc. etc.

They are young too and even highly diverse in their heritage especially in places like France and Britain. You even have older workers with a lot of education and experience already within the EU who can legally come to Poland to live and work.

But is this enough for you? Of course not. That's because you have an agenda.

Poland has valid laws on the books regarding immigration. You not liking them is your own problem. You should vote with your feet.

By the way, you can claim all day long that you are Polish and even from Poland but the more you write the more this becomes doubtful.
OP Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
19 Aug 2012  #27
Poland is a member of the EU. Do you understand? OK.

I understand where you are coming from Bieganski. But that is a place Poland will not go to.

Students will come through scholarships, it is something which is a wide debate in the Polish society, and its mostly in favor of scholarship.

As for me voting from my feet ... don't worry, my hand is still ok. I see you joined on march this year, that makes you a new comer unless its your fake ID in here. I presume you will join that dead and ever decaying group of racists who think that are the only people on this planet, and thus have been given the privilege to represent society. Even when they come from a country no where near Poland. Maybe some grand pa of yours was from Poland ... but thats another story.

What you are trying to say is that unemployed people from other EU countries should come in. But who is stopping those people? Do you know?

We have our unemployment issues too. The value that skilled and intellectual immigrant can add to society is far more than what your shortsighted perspective can see I feel. Its not just about the labor, but about the diversity and depth of knowledge that can drive a nations success story.

Yes, I do have an agenda. But that agenda is balanced and progressive. Not just a right wing rant which is not heart meets the others with bullets and bombs, cares less about the age of sex of the people they kill. I am someone who prefers logic and a belief that the world is one and man in all its forms are one race. We need to share and do the best we can to give our future generations a better planet to live in.
Bieganski 17 | 906
19 Aug 2012  #28
Congratulations Lodz_The_Boat! You won today's prize for the most incoherent, rambling post on PF! It's a given you are very proud of yourself.

For others who are reading, my consistent position in response to this thread is that if Poland has educational problems or labor skill shortages then politicians, teachers, businesses and community leaders need to see what can be done internally to fix this to help and benefit Polish citizens. This is common sense. This is how many other societies work together to make their own countries successful. If persons like Lodz_The_Boat are against seeing Poland develop home grown talent then this is a result of short-term thinking and outright disdain for real Poles. It's not logical; it's snobbery.

If there is an immediate demand for a specialized ability that cannot be achieved within Poland in a timely manner then Poland as part of the EU already has a vast pool of talent to draw upon. Other EU states have millions of citizens who are already assimilated and legal in terms of settlement and right to work. There are EU citizens who have gone to some of the best schools within the EU and even elsewhere. EU citizens also have a good range of experiences. The EU has huge numbers of people from different background and ethnicities. Not just those unique to each country but their own large immigrant communities. You need Turks, Gemany has them. You need Asians, Britain has them. You need Arab/North Africans, France has them. And on and on. It's up to Poland to attract them.

And it allows the market place for labor to work legally.

But Lodz_The_Boat cannot grasp this and doesn't want to. Instead he screams and lies that somehow I am a racist. This is because he has repeated a preference (more like a fetish) to see Poland bring in young foreign born students only; preferably from outside the EU. This position of his doesn't make me or anyone else a racist but it does expose Lodz_The_Boat as quite creepy especially when you take into consideration that he claims to be a married man with children.

Lodz_The_Boat is entitled to believe (foolishly) that only right-wing extremists reach for bullets and bombs. But I encourage him to read the news sometime. People are fond here on PF of singling out Poles engaging in bad behavior as if to suggest that is how all Poles behave. So conversely let's take a look at Lodz_The_Boat's citing America as a model to follow for liberal immigration policies. Let's also include his desire for young immigrant students. Ever hear about Seung-Hui Cho? Ever hear about the Virginia Tech massacre? Yes, just a few years ago 33 students were killed and 23 injured by Seung-Hui Cho a young immigrant student in America who held a grudge. What was his politics? Unknown. He didn't come off as right or left wing. But he did suffer from mental illness. The other mass murderer Anders Brevik did hold extremist political views but he was also found to be criminally insane.

So I refute your pathetic attempt to tie extremism and violence to others when they don't agree with your own biased views on immigration.

But I actually do hope you get your wish of seeing Poland bring in more young foreigners. You even said previously "Educated Poles in their majority wish the country would be a little more diverse :) ... but more important, benefit from the Global pool of intellectual capacity." Fantastic! I also hope you feel the effects personally. Not just by seeing them take up jobs that other Poles can be doing. I hope you get to compete directly with them and they end up putting you out of business. I also hope your family and friends lose their jobs in preference to these foreign immigrants. And why not? There are 7 billion people in the world at the moment. There are millions if not billions of foreigners who can outwit you, your family and friends. They can do things 10x better and at a fraction of the price. You and those you know are already obsolete. It's only logical that you get displaced. You need to give up your place for them. The sooner the better.
OP Lodz_The_Boat 32 | 1,535
19 Aug 2012  #29
Congratulations Lodz_The_Boat! You won today's prize

Thank you for it.

If you can highlight your points in bullet form ... that is, what you would wish the Polish immigration system to include. It would be better.

And if you wish to add more explanations, add them under your bullet points in a paragraph. That would be better.
Buggsy 8 | 98
19 Aug 2012  #30
What i have learned about such sensitive topics is this: If u read too much about what they say in a media that has certain interests or against certain things they can always deceive u into believing their ideas. Some of us would give Japan as a good example of a country that has managed immigration well but if u have lived there u will realise that it is far from the truth. I wouldn't blame people who read about such things in a media that wants u to believe in that. Having lived in Tokyo also as an immigrant or expat, whatever you wanna call it, i saw a country struggling with such issues just like any other. There are many illegals from other Asian countries like The Philippines and Thailand living in Japan.

As to what is good for Poland: unfortunately they might just have to do with anything that comes here just to have people working for the pensioners.

Most young people have left and are still leaving for other countries and it has helped Poland very well. Just go to the airports and shopping malls towards Christmas or look at the new houses being built around your neighbourhood u will see what i am talking about.


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