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Freedom of religion v animal rights in Poland?


Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
28 May 2013 #1
The issue of re-legalising ritual slaughter (demadned by Jews and Muslims) is diving Poland's ruiling colaiton, with the PSL in favour and most PO MPs opposed. This is a delicate controversy pitting freedom of religion against humane treatment of animals. Where do you stand on this. I am undecided.

In Poland, the ritual slaughter was allowed to the previous year-end. The Constitutional Court challenged the rules , recognizing that they are internally contradictory. For the re- legalization of slaughter opted directed by PSL Ministry of Agriculture .

- For the coalition affair slaughter does not matter . Do not look for the strength of the points of contention - says former Minister of Agriculture Marek Sawicki from the PSL . But unofficially members of the party say otherwise . They believe that the Party can not afford to fail in this case, since so openly stood on the side of meat producers .

jon357 63 | 15,175
28 May 2013 #2
There's no reason nowadays to kill any animal in order to steal their protein. No such thing as 'humane slaughter' no matter how nice lamb chops taste.
smurf 39 | 1,981
28 May 2013 #3
I am undecided.

Why post about something you have no opinion about?
Poor attempt at trolling.
Ant63 11 | 403
28 May 2013 #4
The issue of re-legalising ritual slaughter (demadned by Jews and Muslims)

Back to this again. Making it illegal was simply just a protest by supreme court judges against their loss of control. This is just a platform, using an emotive subject, for protesting against losing control of Polish law to Europe. There is nothing that can be changed, the deals been done.

I'm sure you are aware that Poland is a major exporter of H and K meat. What damage would be done to this industry?
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
28 May 2013 #5
It matters how they live, not how they die.
You have to ask yourself as to what conditions the animals you eat lived in and then compare that to what conditions halaal or kosher slaughtered animals lived in. Proceed from there.
newpip - | 140
28 May 2013 #6
both how they live and die is a concern.

I am not a meat eater anymore but animals killed in factory slaughterhouses are killed under extreme duress causing massive stress to the animal which actually alters the taste of the meat.

If all meat was reared in responsible farming conditions, not pumped with massive hormones, steroids and antibiotics then our food chain would be different. But factory meat is manufactured to fast food companies and the like. So the foods the animals eat are poison, the animals are poison---everything is toxic in factory meat. It never used to be this way.
jon357 63 | 15,175
28 May 2013 #7
You have to ask yourself as to what conditions the animals you eat lived in

Very true. That seal of quality or whatever they call it to justify charging more for chickens just means that they 'promise' to pick them up by two legs rather than one when they throw them live into the dumpster.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
29 May 2013 #8
I am against is personally, and this should not be re-legalised. Ritual slaughter is the key. They way some of these poor animals are killed in the Islamic faith [as an example], is horrendous. Of course Poland is now a secular country right, so they have to consider this stuff. If it embraced Catholicism more, this type of stuff would be out of the question. Don't want to start this argument again though so, moving on.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
29 May 2013 #9
Of course Poland is now a secular country right, so they have to consider this stuff.

You do realise that the 1921 Constitution was secular too?

If it embraced Catholicism more, this type of stuff would be out of the question.

Catholicism has nothing to do with it. It has everything to do with huge, lucrative export markets.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
29 May 2013 #10
I knew mentioning Catholicism would kick up a storm. To think, calling Poland a Catholic, okay fine, let's just go with, Christian country, could draw such a reaction. Oh the world must be ending soon.

Back to the question though. Exports? Money? So what? you ever heard of a crime against nature? That's what these slaughters are.
Lenka 3 | 2,069
29 May 2013 #11
Delph- take WP comment that it's not the place for it. 2 thread goes into that topic. I like this discussion but I would prefer it in some special thread
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
29 May 2013 #12
Ritual slaughter is the key. They way some of these poor animals are killed in the Islamic faith [as an example], is horrendous.

Interesting point you raise. Again, for what it's worth, I believe that how animals live (up to the point of death for those of you who want to nitpick) is a more important issue overall but homing in on that key word does make me wonder about a future variable.

What would happen if it became a religious issue as to who did the slaughtering? Could that angle be used to "force" slaughter houses which took on this practice to employ only those who follow a specific faith?

I've seen some pretty far out interpretations of faith coming from both Muslims and Jews regarding Goyim and/or Infidels. I wonder how far some of those interpretations would make it in an E.U. court.

I'm sure that'll p*ss off some of you but it's an honest question so if anyone has any insight into the do's and dont's of ritual slaughter, feel free to contribute.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
29 May 2013 #13
Dunno about the Arabs, but Kosher slaughter as far as I know is actually quite humnae. The animal is drained of its blood, I assume the way we do when we prepare czernina. The duck or goose feels only a pin prick and as it is bled it gradually grows weak and sleepy and that's it. There is nothing violent like an electric shock or a blow to the head.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
29 May 2013 #14
If you had to choose one of those three options for yourself, which would it be?
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
29 May 2013 #15
The gradual fading-out option.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
29 May 2013 #16
I'll make a note of it; )
Thank you for your honesty: )
Ant63 11 | 403
29 May 2013 #17
It's a pity that most peoples supposed knowledge of such processes is gleaned from articles with an agenda. It's also a pity that populations have ever distanced themselves from the realities of farming animals. Most people are now so out of touch with the realities of meat production, their comments are worthless.

I once worked a turkey farm, while still at school, for some extra cash one christmas. The turkeys, while fully alive, were hung by their feet on a conveyor which lowered their heads into a tank of water which was electrified. Unfortunately some turkeys were able to raise their heads enough to avoid the water and subsequently hit the plucking machine alive and fully conscious. Really not nice.

The gradual fading out option is my preference.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
29 May 2013 #18
@Polonius

I am not sure about it being humane to drain an animal of it's blood. Imagine getting cut open and left to bleed to death. That can't be pleasant. I think an instant kill must be more humane.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
29 May 2013 #19
Well, unless one entirely eschews meat, there is really no humane way to slaughter livestock.
Ant63 11 | 403
29 May 2013 #20
I think

They don't think on the same level as you or I. From experience of slaughter houses, I am sure they are aware that something significant is about to happen. Maybe they smell death.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
29 May 2013 #21
A few years ago there was a documnetary on TV about abbatoirs in Poland. It showed that live pigs on the conveyor belt getting jittery at the smell of blood and the squealing of their fellows being butchered. Probably if it were repeatedly screened there'd be a lot more vegetarians.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
29 May 2013 #22
I did not see that but I saw a different program about slaughter of pigs and since that, it is the one meat I don't eat. One might reply, just that, why not other meat? Well I am a meat eater. I'd like to think that in most places, chickens, lambs or cows don't get brutally butchered, but this documentary I saw about pigs was horrible. It showed them cut open, still alive, being dragged across the floor squealing. It was horrible to watch. Later they did an interview with a guy who said he gets away with murder 100 times a day. I have not looked in to other animals as of yet, but I have a feeling that the pig is one animal that doesn't get killed in a very humane way, if there is such a thing.

I am not an animal rights activist and am not particularly in to animal issues, but something needs to be done to make sure, that if they are going to be killed and used as food, it is done in a way that gives them the least pain and trauma [I am sure that many animals can very easily suffer trauma]. An electric shock that kills a cow, or one quick sharp axe to the neck of a chicken is acceptable [to me, although even that might be unacceptable to some]. A long death is not.

Like I said, I was not interested in any type of animal rights activism in the past, but some of the stuff I have seen recently, has opened my eyes to just how barbaric some people can be, and this is not always for food, but is always for profit. A couple of examples would be the poisoning of street dogs in Ukraine, or the bashing in of seals heads. [I remember seeing a clip of a guy walk up to a seal, who just sat there, assuming he was friendly, then wham! He took out his hammer and smashed it over the seals head! It was hard to watch. It is not surprising so many animals run away when they see a person, you can't trust them.
OP Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
30 May 2013 #23
Among other things, PF can help you learn new things you are not too familar with.
jon357 63 | 15,175
31 May 2013 #24
Dunno about the Arabs, but Kosher slaughter as far as I know is actually quite humane

Both methods are probably as humane or more so than those used in Europe.
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
31 May 2013 #25
Draining an animal of its blood while it is alive, is more humane than a quick kill. What are you smoking?
jon357 63 | 15,175
31 May 2013 #26
a quick kill

You think abbatoirs are quick?
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
31 May 2013 #27
never heard of that method, so explain please, then tell me who does it, and how often this method is used. The Islamic way to kill the animals, is used widely, pretty much throughout Islamic countries [and not just].
jon357 63 | 15,175
31 May 2013 #28
If you need to ask, why comment?
WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
31 May 2013 #29
Because you are mentioning a method that you seem to claim [by the 'tone of you post] is a lot worse than the Islamic ritual way. So why not describe so I can judge it for myself. I ask where it is used, since, if it is very rarely used, and only done by a select few people, then it is hardly methods in Europe, as you broadly generalised, that are less humane than the Islamic methods.
jon357 63 | 15,175
31 May 2013 #30
The European and American way is much less humane. Killing on an industrial scale. BTW, I've seen both methods practised.

Why not check these out:

nysdelight.com/what-is-halal-food/


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