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Expats in Poland - would you fight for your new country?


delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
2 Dec 2010  #31
What if you became a Polish citizen, or had a child who was Polish of Scottish descent? Would that change your loyalties and the way in which you expressed those loyalties in reality?

It's hypothetical. You cannot compare this to the situation where someone actually has joined a foreign military and signed up to attack their own homeland if needs be.

For what it's worth, Polish citizenship to me would be a piece of paper that makes life easier. Nothing more, nothing less. It can be renounced easily. And I think anyone with a child in such circumstances would do the sensible thing and go somewhere else. I seem to recall that many mixed Serb/Croat/Bosniak couples did exactly that.

Anyway, my opinion is that you cannot be a traitor to a country, but rather to one's people. I'm not Polish and never will be.

He doesn't know me, yet he is easily found. How stupid can one be?

Got you penciled in in my calendar, Harry. Sometimes people have to learn the hard way.

Somehow, I doubt you'll do a thing. He's already invited you on countless occasions. I'm still curious what's taking you so long - you live in the same city, surely it's not that difficult to turn up and fight?

Then again, what can you expect from someone who signed up to kill his own people?

By the way, Ozi Dan - what do you know about IT security? You would be surprised about how remarkably easy it is to find out someone's identity online. Certainly in Poland, it's a formality with the right contacts to get someone's details - data protection laws are somewhat pathetic here. All unofficial, of course - but the old principle of "money talks" easily applies.

Of course, knowing someone's details is one thing, but doing something with it is a whole different story.
POLENGGGs 2 | 150
2 Dec 2010  #32
I would fight for America because it is there that I was born. Also I would fight for any country in which have lived/used resources of for a period of 15 years or more

The fact that I can speak the polish language, and my ancestry is mostly polish does not make a lot of sense to be fighting for Poland - it has it own people and foreign residents who maybe see it as home.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
2 Dec 2010  #33
The fact that I can speak the polish language, and my ancestry is mostly polish does not make a lot of sense to be fighting for Poland - it has it own people and foreign residents who maybe see it as home.

Blimey.

Honourable :)
poland_
2 Dec 2010  #34
expats would heed the call up themselves and physically fight for Poland

The expats in PL ( contributors) are fighting for PL on a daily basis, we go to work pay our taxes, consume goods in PL and pay VAT, we train people, educate people and create jobs. Our life is a grind coming up against bureacracy and energy sapping rules, yet we fight on. We are contributing to help create a new PL, that is worthy of her place in Europe.
smurf 39 | 1,982
2 Dec 2010  #35
no way jose, if a war broke out, I'd be waving my Irish (neutral) passport & I'd be out of her quicker a teenagers first attempt at riding a hooker.

Call me a coward but I'd rather be alive than cannon fodder.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
2 Dec 2010  #36
Would you die for your country? would you kill for your country?

Always the same inane ridiculous questions.

How about, would you live for your country?
Teffle 22 | 1,321
2 Dec 2010  #37
Christ I wouldn't even necessarily fight for my own country never mind anyone elses.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
2 Dec 2010  #38
warszawski wrote:

The expats in PL ( contributors) are fighting for PL on a daily basis, we go to work pay our taxes, consume goods in PL and pay VAT, we train people, educate people and create jobs. Our life is a grind coming up against bureacracy and energy sapping rules, yet we fight on. We are contributing to help create a new PL, that is worthy of her place in Europe.

I have a similar feeling.

it's also worth mentioning the amount of money we pay into Poland's pathetic social medicine/security system and how we will never see a dime of it.

Zbigniew Kowalski has been collecting checks every month for kielbasa and bread all while living in a government paid flat for many many years......when I leave Poland, Zbigniew won't even bother to call me to say thanks.

Poland loves foreigners like me. I come, work and provide a service in Poland, all the while paying taxes and pumping money into a socialized system that will never pay me back.

just in ZUS, I pump 9600zl into the system every year.
zetigrek
2 Dec 2010  #39
The fact that I can speak the polish language, and my ancestry is mostly polish does not make a lot of sense to be fighting for Poland - it has it own people and foreign residents who maybe see it as home.

Ok so you are completely cut off from your polish heritage. What else are you doing here? why are you wasteing your time on disccusions about country you don't feel any connection with?

Would you die for your country? would you kill for your country?

I would fight as my grandfather did. I mean I would defend it from enemies. Nothing wrong with that.

But if I were living somewhere else I would not fight for any other country. But I would help to defend the place where I live if there was such need wherever it would be.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
2 Dec 2010  #40
It would depend on the situation of the conflict. If it was against UK, then no... in fact UK-expats would probably be rounded up anyway. If it was an attack on Polish soil then I would be prepared to, however if it was something like Iraq etc, where Poland have business being, then no.

Even if you serve in the French Foreign Legion you do not have to serve against your motherland.

If it was a NATO conflict, then I was, until recently, a member of UK reserve forces, so I'd probably have been enlisted somehow.

As I understand it, US citizens can lose their citizenship if they fight for another country as a mercenary etc (unless it is OK with US govt).
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
2 Dec 2010  #41
But if I were living somewhere else I would not fight for any other country. But I would help to defend the place where I live if there was such need wherever it would be.

My point is that people on here speak very tough, I would kill... I would die... for my country but they don't live it.

Why would they die and kill for Poland but not live for it, too difficult?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
2 Dec 2010  #42
Zbigniew Kowalski has been collecting checks every month for kielbasa and bread all while living in a government paid flat for many many years......when I leave Poland, Zbigniew won't even bother to call me to say thanks.

And herein lies one of the biggest problems in Poland - there is no will on the part of the people to force people like him to give up the booze and start working instead. Let's not forget that even if he's retired, he's probably on a far bigger pension than he ever paid for. Some of the pensions handed out are astounding - look at how much we subsidise miners, for instance!

just in ZUS, I pump 9600zl into the system every year.

I'm of the opinion that paying the high rate of ZUS only makes sense for those who have wives who are similarly self employed. 425zl each a month isn't bad, but 850zl for a single person is just ridiculous and a barrier to self employment!
Trevek 26 | 1,702
2 Dec 2010  #43
You know nothing about Polish expats. You are judging by your coward/sissy/nihilistic British standards.

Well, we have a fine example. The Polish anthropologist, Bronisław Malinowski and his friend Witkacy were in Australia when WW1 was declared. Malinowski was an Austrian citizen, whereas Witkacy was a Russian citizen. Malinowski was to be detained in a camp for 'enemy citizens' but he had a few high ranking friends amongst Commonwealth academia, who wrote a few letters. Malinowski was allowed to sit out the war on the Trobriand Isalnds, where he did a lot of research, wrote career defining books and made his reputation. Witkacy went to fight in the war.

Later, Malinowski took British citizenship and took a giant step away from Poland, whereas Witkacy embraced the new republic.

By the way, Dan, interesting thread. Has brought up some interesting replies. Just hope it doesn't descend into the usual name calling.
Bzibzioh
2 Dec 2010  #44
Later, Malinowski took British citizenship and took a giant step away from Poland, whereas Witkacy embraced the new republic.

Lovely story. It's about personal choices. As a free people we can make them.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
2 Dec 2010  #45
Indeed. Witkacy didn't really forgive Malinowski for becoming "anglicised" and wrote a play with a character who parodied Malinowski.

Interesting thing is that Malinowski considered himself the "Conrad" of anthropology, with his writing. Conrad also took British citizenship (although there wasn't an independent Poland at that time) but turned down a British knighthood as he already held a hereditary Polish one.
poland_
2 Dec 2010  #46
How about, would you live for your country?

Very good point, when you have a Polish spouse and choose to have children in Poland, you want the best for your children, whether it be education or a safe and secure country to live in. The talk of fighting I find quite juvenile, life in Poland can be frustrating and many a weaker man has legged it off to the land he came from (a beaten man). If someone can put in 4 years + in Poland and carve out a living for him/herself. then this shows strength of character.

Ask yourself a question "Ozi Dan" when someone comes to invade the space you call home, wherever it may be in the world, are you going to roll over and die, or will you stand up for what is yours?
ukpolska
2 Dec 2010  #47
It is quite simple really as I would fight for the protection of my family and friends wherever I live.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
2 Dec 2010  #48
Very good point, when you have a Polish spouse and choose to have children in Poland, you want the best for your children, whether it be education or a safe and secure country to live in.

And something that is often unappreciated is just how safe Poland is. Alas, as the country gets richer, the social problems will increase :(
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
2 Dec 2010  #49
Alas, as the country gets richer, the social problems will increase :(

Somehow it was not the case when entire country was dirt poor and everyone suffered, then again everyone was in the same boat but would not bet on it.
bimber94 7 | 254
2 Dec 2010  #50
On UK TV, it was once stated that no two countries which have branches of McDonald's go to war with each other. That can't be true...can it? Nothing would surprise me these days.
convex 20 | 3,978
2 Dec 2010  #51
The golden arches theory, it's unfortunately been disproven over the last couple of years :(
Maybe 12 | 409
2 Dec 2010  #52
On UK TV, it was once stated that no two countries which have branches of McDonald's go to war with each other. That can't be true...can it? Nothing would surprise me these days.

This theory is now defunct
jonni 16 | 2,485
2 Dec 2010  #53
it's unfortunately been disproven over the last couple of years :(

Really?
Harry
2 Dec 2010  #54
It is quite simple really as I would fight for the protection of my family and friends wherever I live.

Which is pretty much what I said: fight for people not for countries.
Wroclaw Boy
2 Dec 2010  #55
many a weaker man has legged it off to the land he came from (a beaten man). If someone can put in 4 years + in Poland and carve out a living for him/herself. then this shows strength of character.

or perhaps he may just not like living in Poland.
poland_
2 Dec 2010  #56
Somehow it was not the case when entire country was dirt poor and everyone suffered, then again everyone was in the same boat but would not bet on it

SHT, I am not quite sure this is true, PL pre 89, people still had good lives in PL, you just had to be part of the intelligentsia. Not everyone was in the same boat, in fact most Poles will tell you they were better off, especially the farmers and military workers.

he may just not like living in Poland.

Based on your experience WB, I understand you have young kid(s), would you choose the UK over PL, for your family to live?

I personally would not, I know PL can be frustrating, but the benefits for my family are worth the frustration I have to endure. Also if it all gets too much I can find myself a cheap Wizzair ticket and go and have a blowout, watch some football and come back all refreshed, after a long weekend. I just feel it is worth putting in the time to make something happen in PL, and not to give up or become dissalusioned. A big positive we can go skiing every weekend for the next few months, how good is that, its only a few hours away even if you live in Warsaw, you can still go and come back on the same day if you want to.
1jola 14 | 1,879
2 Dec 2010  #57
Which is pretty much what I said: fight for people not for countries.

Who are the people you would "fight" for? Who are your people? Do your people have a flag or a banner?

Dupamine and I were talking about you on this thread earlier but mods moved my post to random. Of course, I don't start threads how good the mods are.
Harry
2 Dec 2010  #58
Who are the people you would "fight" for? Who are your people?

'Defend' would be a better word than 'fight'. And those people are not from any one group or nation. I certainly would never fight for any country.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
2 Dec 2010  #59
I am not quite sure this is true, PL pre 89, people still had good lives in PL, you just had to be part of the intelligentsia. Not everyone was in the same boat, in fact most Poles will tell you they were better off, especially the farmers and military workers.

The good times in PL ended when the first shortages started, that was in 76 when the sugar rations were first issued, 80’s - well it would be hard for any foreigner to understand unless they themselves lived through it all. Perhaps I misunderstood his statement but Delphi’s theory is that the violence and other social problems plaguing the west are due to the social divide and wealth distribution which will rear its ugly head in Poland as soon as that divide is more evident. Social standing or social economic background of individuals in Poland at that time really made no difference except for the type of work one did. Everyone was in the same boat for almost everyone had to cope with reality just the same, except for the very few at the very top. Even those that did have the access to the goods through their connections still had to jump through hoops in order to get them but it’s precisely the lack of those goods that brought everyone even closer. The need for the change was equally expressed by intelligentsia, farmers, workers and even the lower class bureaucrats in the communist party. The lack of wealth or even the goods was not enough to turn the people against each other to compete for those resources, so if by some chance Poland will be a more dangerous place to live in the near future, it will be other factors than simple competition or wealth distribution that will bring that about.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
2 Dec 2010  #60
Hypothetically speaking? I don't do hypotheticals ;)

I would under the right circumstances, yes. However, I would use my judgement in all cases.


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