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The most dissapointed with Poland are those who have Polish origins.


zetigrek
14 Dec 2010 #1
I've noticed by reading this forum that (it seems that) the biggest complainers of life in Poland/Polish culture/Polish people and generally everything Polish are expats who actually have Polish origins. I just wonder is it true (or maybe false) observation? Is it because those people have in mind the idealised view of Poland seeded in them by their parents/grandparents? Or maybe they need to challenge their old country with the new one, that's why they constantly compere the two with each other?

What are your thoughts about it?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
14 Dec 2010 #2
What are your thoughts about it?

Well, it's certainly true that the American Polonia have this very idealised view of what Poland should be, often complaining that Poland "isn't right". You can find enough of them online, whining and moaning because Poland is changing and isn't the 1920's country that "Busha" claimed it was. It's usually the ones that claim to be "100% Polish" that are guilty of that.

It's the same reason they voted for Kaczynski rather than Komorowski - they know nothing about real life here, but they are seduced by the POLSKA POLSKA NASZA POLSKA talk.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
14 Dec 2010 #3
I decided about 5 years ago that I wanted to live/work outside the US for a while and I chose Poland only because I have Polish roots.

Am I disappointed in Poland? No. That wouldn't be fair to say. Was I hoping for something different? Yes, but that's nobody's fault but my own. I chose to live here. Now I know what it's like.

That's really it.
OP zetigrek
14 Dec 2010 #4
Delphi I agree with you but note that this type of people is rather pro-polish culture and everything Polish.

Since I'm on this board I've noticed 2 users who excelled in complaining about Poland. I won't name them because I don't want to be rude (but we probably all know who I mean).

One guy was a Brit. A proud Brit. The second guy is American and untill this very day I even haven't got a clue that he is of Polish origins! So I shockingly discovered that those two guys have something in common besides complaining... their origins! I know that complainng is a Polish trait but they probably don't complain so much in their natives countries.

That's why I started to wonder is it some kind of standard...

Am I disappointed in Poland? No. That wouldn't be fair to say. Was I hoping for something different? Yes, but that's nobody's fault but my own. I chose to live here. Now I know what it's like.

Oh, Fuzzy I was meaning exactly you. You became my inspiration ;)

I wouldn't be suprised if Harry was of Polish origins... he fits the description of complainer ;) So there would be a Yank, a Brit and an Ozzie ;D
Seanus 15 | 19,674
14 Dec 2010 #5
It seems to be that way, yes. It does linger within some expats that they have failed in some way by living abroad for a long time. There is a tendency towards romanticism of their home country but the grass is always greener on the other side.

The person that enjoys Poland the most is he/she who sees the good around them and isn't afraid to enjoy themself. Too many are repressed and look for the negative. Old people, naturally, are the masters in this dept.

Zeti, based on what I've seen here, it seems to be that they are more disgruntled.
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
14 Dec 2010 #6
zetigrek wrote:

I know that complainng is a Polish trait but they probably don't complain so much in their natives countries.

that's a common response here but i'd say i complain just as much about the USA, just about different things. different countries, different issues.

zetigrek wrote:

Oh, Fuzzy I was meaning exactly you. You became my inspiration ;)

prosze bardzo. czesto mam taki "efekt" ;)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
14 Dec 2010 #7
Delphi I agree with you but note that this type of people is rather pro-polish culture and everything Polish.

They're funny - they seem to celebrate all things Polish and proudly wave "kielbasas and pierogies" in the air - but they also seem to be fiercely critical of anything that they perceive as "anti-Polish". Really, they remind me of Giertych and Lepper in their behaviour. They're also prone to seeing problems that aren't problems (such as Poland modernising).

Actually, the only thing that I really detest here is the NYE culture. Seanus will understand ;)
OP zetigrek
14 Dec 2010 #8
NYE culture

New Years Eve? No Young Elegants??
skysoulmate 14 | 1,294
14 Dec 2010 #10
What are your thoughts about it?

Are you serious?
How many times have those of us who joined this forum been belittled for not being "real" Poles but merely "Plastic" Poles? A while back I remember a new person joined this forum and he wrote something like: "hi, I'm new here, I'm third generation Pole and am very proud of my Polish heritage, do you know where I could learn some Polish?" (I'm paraphrasing as I can't remember his entire post verbatim)

Within minutes there were several post pointing out that this person was not a real Pole as he couldn't even speak Polish. I've seen it numerous times. On one hand you see those who're disappointed that Polonia has "forgotten" their roots yet when some of us try to reconnect we're immediately reminded that we're only half-Poles, at best. You're damned if you do and you're damned if you don't.

I visit a few Scandinavian forums too and whenever there's an American of Swedish or Norwegian descent who wants to proclaim his heritage and maybe to learn a few words in the language of his ancestors the replies are usually something like "welcome home", "you're one of us", "glad you wanna learn your grandparent's language", etc. Very little sarcasm and disdain and instead a much more welcoming attitude.

Also, we're all extra sensitive to issues that affect us but often oblivious to things that are important to others. Case in point - you feel like there's a lot of complaining about Poland here on PF, I really haven't noticed that. I've noticed some racism and tons of sexism but not so many anti-Polish comments. Instead, from my perspective I see a lot of complaining about the US and to certain extent about the UK. So the irony is that although this is a "Polish" forum we seldom (from my perspective) ***** and moan about Poland but almost every day about the "evilness" of the US, it feels like PF is a cesspool of anti-American conspiracies. In fact, on few occasions I felt like the cold war was still in full swing and a large portion of PF members were free-lancing as the mouthpiece of the USSR (was it ZSRR?).

Maybe your knowledge and your understanding of us, the "plastic-Poles" is as incomplete and as inaccurate as our knowledge and understanding of you - the "real-Poles"??
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,879
14 Dec 2010 #11
because Poland is a cranky, depressing country.

:O
OP zetigrek
14 Dec 2010 #12
skysoulmate

Oh, I'm sorry I forgot about you. You are the positive example :)

I visit a few Scandinavian forums too and whenever there's an American of Swedish or Norwegian descent who wants to proclaim his heritage and maybe to learn a few words in the language of his ancestors the replies are usually something like "welcome home", "you're one of us", "glad you wanna learn your grandparent's language", etc.

My answer is: I can help you.
How many times I translated a text or expained Polish grammar for some random people who wants to learn Polish? And yes, I give them MY time to help them.

The only time when I exclude American Poles from Polish society is when they start to say things like: "In Poland people are smart becasue they did not believed in PC and beat the homos and the blacks on the streets and believe in God." Such people are anoying so my answer is that they don't live in Poland, they did not born in Poland and they weren't raised there so they have no right to say anything on behalf of Poland. If they wanna act like racist then they should stress the country which upbring them to be racist/homophobes/bigots not claim Poland which they probably in many case haven't even seen on their own eyes.

But it's an offtopic. I absolutely didn't mean that issue. I rather mean those people who came to Poland with great expectations and then fall in a trap of complaining on every small thing (bad songs on the radio).

Maybe your knowledge and your understanding of us, the "plastic-Poles" is as incomplete and as inaccurate as our knowledge and understanding of you - the "real-Poles"??

Delphi is a Scotman and he is the first one to scream and yell on "Plastic Poles" and Americans generally.

To dlaczego te pretensje kierowane są do mnie? Poza tym wg moich standardów jeśli urodziłeś się w Polsce to jesteś Polakiem a nie osobą Polskiego pochodzenia.
Paulina 16 | 4,211
14 Dec 2010 #13
Within minutes there were several post pointing out that this person was not a real Pole as he couldn't even speak Polish. I've seen it numerous times.

Were those posts written by Poles? I don't think so. I've noticed that it's usually foreigners who ridicule "Plastic Poles" (you won't even here such expression in Poland, Poles who live abroad are simply called "Polonia").

There's this thread created by delphiandomine:

[urlc=hhttps://polishforums.com/usa-canada/polack-american-polonia-plastic-pole-culture-47480/2/]Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture"[/url]

who's asking:

Seriously, why do real Poles put up with them?

And what that "real Pole" answers?

We like people of Polish descent who are interested in Polish culture, history, etc. Unlike you, we are not that critical about the small stuff. Relax, and start a cool thread instead of this nonsense.

Is delphiandomine a Pole?
No, he isn't, fortunately.
OP zetigrek
14 Dec 2010 #14
Were those posts written by Poles?

and I add that many Brits here are anti-american oriented. Poles who live in USA almost always say good thing about USA.
nunczka 8 | 458
14 Dec 2010 #15
maybe false) observation? Is it because those people have in mind the idealised view of Poland seeded in them by their parents/grandparents?

You hit the nail right on the head Zeti. We American Poles especially the first generation, only have what we were told by our parents.Most of us looked at the Poland that our parents described. We grew up living that life in America.. We went to polish Parochial schools taugh by Nuns. We were taught the Polish language, all of the ethnic holidays, we celebrated Wigilia

with our wujas and ciotkas and sang Kolendy.. We had the oplatek and all of the trappings that went along with Wielkanoc.. This is the Poland that we remember. Even our Polish American music goes back to yesteryear.. We intend to keep it that way.

Its true, things have changed, even here in America, our children have lost the ability to speak Polish. I blame it all on Globalization, MTV, Rap music, and the general decline of morals. I remember the day that when we married, we could be assured that our wifes were virgins. That is true here in America too. With the influx of foriegners you can expect more of a decline.

I think that Yescze Polska nie zgynila, is a thing of the past. ( Polska ist Kaput.. AMEN!
skysoulmate 14 | 1,294
14 Dec 2010 #16
skysoulmate
Oh, I'm sorry I forgot about you. You are the positive example :)

I'm crashed you forgot about me... Where's Prozac when you need it!? ;)

My answer is: I can help you.
How many times I translated a text or expained Polish grammar for some random people who wants to learn Polish? And yes, I give them MY time to help them.

...and my answer is that I have noticed that. If you remember I even sent you a message to reconsider your decision to "retire" from PF as I thought you had a positive influence.

Those things upset you that much? Remember that many of the posts are written by jokesters who only pretend to be Americans, Brits, etc., and simply want to stir the pot. Look at it from my perspective, recently a moron basically posted that he was ok with the Stockholm terrorist attack because it wasn't in Poland. My parents happen to live just few blocks away and I was upset. I would be upset even if they didn't live there. It's Poland's neighbor so i figured someone from Poland would show more respect but nope, it's not Poland so it's ok.

But it's an offtopic. I absolutely didn't mean that issue. I rather mean those people who came to Poland with great expectations and then fall in a trap of complaining on every small thing (bad songs on the radio).

I see your point Zeti but you also need to understand that they should be able to vent their frustrations. It's human nature you know.

Well, some of the UK Poles left Poland fairly recently so they might have more knowledge about Poland than I do, in fact I know that they do. I left as a child and haven't been back ever since. More than three decades. Yet, I studied and learned about Poland because I wanted to. So somewhat off the subject - my mom said that my Polish has greatly improved since I joined PF so maybe your and others' translations here have had more of a positive effect on PF members than you think.

Nie pretensje Zeti ale argumenty. Twój "thread?" - i dlatego odpowiadam do Ciebie. XOXOXO :)

---------

Were those posts written by Poles? I don't think so. I've noticed that it's usually foreigners who ridicule "Plastic Poles" (you won't even here such expression in Poland, Poles who live abroad are simply called "Polonia").

The few I'm thinking of actually were (at least that was my understanding). My main point was that we often see what we like to see based on our own biases, our own perceptions. In pilot lingo we call it "parallax error" or error in reading an instrument employing a scale and pointer because the observer's eye and pointer are not in a line perpendicular to the plane of the scale. In plain English if you look at your watch from above the needles will not be in the same position as if you look at it from the side.
alexw68
14 Dec 2010 #17
From my experience (not confined to PF) - very simply the biggest whingers I had working for me back in the day here were the ones who weren't comfortable in their own skin. Y'know, erect this barrier of indifference, pseudo-enigma, etc, etc towards everything and everyone as if we'd take 'em seriously. Truth is, if it hadn't been Poland it would have been something else.

Also true - compared to eg. UK Poland is a place where you have to go find whatever floats your boat. It isn't just there, wrapped up on a shop shelf, to be consumed like so much chewing gum. Which makes the pleasure more heartfelt when you do in fact chance upon whatever it is you may have been looking for.
Paulina 16 | 4,211
14 Dec 2010 #18
The few I'm thinking of actually were (at least that was my understanding).

So you're not sure? Were they living in Poland? I have an impression there are very little "real Poles" on this forum.

My main point was that we often see what we like to see based on our own biases, our own perceptions.

True, I can see this in your comment:

I've noticed a lot of complaining about Poland here on PF (that's the main topic of most threads about Poland, or at least those most popular ones), complaining about Poles (especially Polish women) and anti-Polish comments too :)

I didn't read delphiandomine's thread "Polack/American Polonia/Plastic Pole "culture"" because the word "Polack" put me off, I just thought reading it would be a waste of time. So I don't know who wrote what on those 18 pages. But I know delphiandomine isn't a Pole, jola1 is.

Have you read that thread?
THE HITMAN - | 236
14 Dec 2010 #19
The forests, countryside and cities of Poland are second to none, absolutely the best in the world. Unfortunately the same cannot be said of the people.

The modern Pole has changed for the worse, self-righteous, manipulative and greedy.
The thread can go on and on, comparing the old Poland with the new. I for one, regard the old ways, the best ways. Freedom, modernization and capitalism is, or already has ruined Poland. My fore-fathers would turn in their graves if they saw what was happening to the country for which they sacrificed their lives.

Only since the changes, have I denied my Polish roots and will renounce the traditions for my children and grand-children, to save them from utter shame.
OP zetigrek
14 Dec 2010 #20
THE HITMAN

Where do you live now?
Zed - | 195
14 Dec 2010 #21
I sense a bit of goodwill in this thread, here and there, after having read preceding posts .... That's good as we're approaching Xmas :-). Let it last beyond Christmas as well! And yes, I am a native polish guy and I do embrace all plastic, foreign, half-bred, quarter-bred and black Poles, even if they barely speak our vernacular.
Ironside 53 | 12,493
14 Dec 2010 #22
they know nothing about real life here, but they are seduced by the POLSKA POLSKA NASZA POLSKA talk.

OH why don't you shut up your international mug delph, commie and fighters for tolerance are the worst pest on the face of the earth, whats wrong with a little of national pride, no harm to anyone .......rag you are associated with is also tribal when it comes to its personnel policy, I wonder delp what kind of Scot you are :)

that's a common response here but i'd say i complain just as much about the USA, just about different things. different countries, different issues.

Well, I knew that you are a grumpy fukker !nothing new there :)
Zed - | 195
14 Dec 2010 #23
OK. the so called goodwill has just diminished. Thanx Ironside.
Ironside 53 | 12,493
14 Dec 2010 #24
Thanx Ironside.

your welcome !
Seanus 15 | 19,674
14 Dec 2010 #25
It could be that hard times in America have forced them to rethink their options and explore Poland instead. However, it's not always easy to get into positions here and that may turn people sour. The most important think is to judge Poland against reliable yardsticks and not against America when it was in its heyday. That would just be unfair!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
14 Dec 2010 #26
The modern Pole has changed for the worse, self-righteous, manipulative and greedy.

I wonder what kind of circles you move in? I know many kind, generous Poles who are fundamentally good people - indeed, many of them don't feel the need to boast or indeed say anything about their activities.

Then again, if you hang around with materialist people, I'm not surprised that you see such actions. But I choose to associate with good people.

Only since the changes, have I denied my Polish roots and will renounce the traditions for my children and grand-children, to save them from utter shame.

Ah, those proud totalitarian tendencies.
Seanus 15 | 19,674
14 Dec 2010 #27
There's truth in both and sometimes we just need to meditate and stop commenting as it always comes back to the same thing. Some are and some aren't (in a nutshell).

Renouncing is also not good as it's usually based on one fragment of the broader whole. It must be remembered that Poles have made great inroads in 21 years and heed must be paid to the stifling effect of communism. Why renounce when many here are moving forward?
Havok 10 | 903
14 Dec 2010 #28
I would like someone to define what Poland is and why would anyone miss it. I visited a few times and I couldn’t wait to get the hell outta there.

I’ve met a lot plastic Pollocks who shared my experiences and observations. It’s nice to visit but live there, no way.

Frankly I think Poland is a sh1thole in comparison with the US. Things I like about Poland are the food, and other plastic Pollocks like myself and that’s it. polish heritage is bunch of communistic crap anyways.

Oh and btw, I would rather live in Siberia by myself than with you two in Poland… and I’m talking to you Delph and ZY.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,177
14 Dec 2010 #29
Oh and btw, I would rather live in Siberia by myself than with you two in Poland… and I’m talking to you Delph and ZY.

I doubt our paths would cross - while we're outside making our way in the world, you'd be stuck inside complaining constantly on PF about the place.

Stay away!
Seanus 15 | 19,674
14 Dec 2010 #30
I think that the difference needs to be drawn between the food and the food options. America wins hands down. Even in Scotland, we have MUCH more variety that in Poland. Many Pol-Ams may like the food here in winter. It's stodgy and filling. I love eating pierogi here right about now. As for summer, Poland comes up short but there are always salads to be made :)


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