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Differences in Polish, American and British mentality


puella 4 | 172
10 Mar 2011  #91
Havok don't you think that your generation might be completely different than young Poles generation? The problems you are talking about are somewhat incomprehensible for recent generation. Recent generation is not so complex ridden as you were.

Will Poland collapse just because he has chosen a life in a country he likes

I think Poland will collapse if Harry decides to leave Poland ;D

Personally, this forum helps me understand things about me. Seriously AJ i have nothing to prove to you. It's about me, me, me more than about you.

Sometimes if feels like I'm arguing with myself Polish-self here... if you know what i mean.

complxes.
Pinching Pete - | 559
10 Mar 2011  #92
People in Poland think you get off the plane and they throw dollars at you, you gotta work hard in school and later at work to get things here.

Bingo brother.. Not just Poland though; lots of countries think like this. WTF, a lot of Americans think they can and should have a free ride.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
10 Mar 2011  #93
See what i mean Havok?

He was made "kierownik" after half a year in a military factory, after getting a degree and experience in East Germany?

Sunshine, you might not like to hear this - but that kind of opportunity was only going to be given to those who had proven themselves to the Party. I know your father has probably denied the lot - but you really should wake up and smell the coffee. He almost certainly would have been a member of the youth organisations - and he wouldn't have got there so fast if it wasn't for having reliable parents, too.

The Communist system was fantastic in the sense of allowing people to embark on a very steep career path if they wanted it. Your father sounds like he was rather well known and trusted by the Party -situations like that just didn't happen if someone wasn't politically reliable and very well connected.

Sorry PennBoy, but your father almost certainly was a collaborationist rat.
shown - | 1
10 Mar 2011  #94
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puella 4 | 172
10 Mar 2011  #95
Like i said before they asked you to join but could never force you to

True and Harry knows that but sorry to say that you are obviously not smart enough to see that they are just teasing you...

as for being a kierownik after half a year, not many people in mid 70's had engineering degrees and job training in East Germany.

many did have. Not sure about the training in Easter Germany though. Nevertheless how many kierowniks was in this factory? Cetainly not only one - so don't insist that yout dad was something extraoridinary.

SO next time ask before making up assumptions that appeal to your liking.

Do you really think that he didn't know that?

in Warsaw

I was in Warsaw in 2004 and in 2008 - and I saw big difference. I couldn't believe it's the same city.

I apologize Martynka, and to you Puella, yea you girl ;)

ok. Could you apologies for the racist and antisemitic statements and slurs you've used before as well?
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,445
10 Mar 2011  #96
very "constructive" thread for a change.
delphiandomine 85 | 17,823
10 Mar 2011  #97
True and Harry knows that but sorry to say that you are obviously not smart enough to see that they are just teasing you...

It's true, but to get such opportunities screams "Party".

I was in Warsaw in 2004 and in 2008 - and I saw big difference. I couldn't believe it's the same city.

Me too - I was there in 2006 and then 2010, what a shock. I remembered in particular one really horrible supermarket in the Dom Towarowy place - even that had been cleaned up dramatically and brightened up.
puella 4 | 172
10 Mar 2011  #98
Btw, there seems to be a whole crowd of people here on PF pretending not to be Polish, which speaks for itself.

such as?

Would people in Poland say yes or no to that question?

no because they are not brainwashed with that counselling psychology books yet ;)
Teffle 22 | 1,321
10 Mar 2011  #99
Jugding by comments of Americans here:
Polish male Americans (including you)

Er...not me - Havok?
ItsAllAboutME 3 | 270
10 Mar 2011  #100
Havok don't you think that your generation might be completely different than young Poles generation?

the supposed "different generation" statement is factually inaccurate, but nevertheless, almost every thread on PF confirms that those "complexes" persist. Differences of opinion are met with hostility; neutral statements get dissected and become the basis for wild speculations, obviously a lot of people here seem to have the need to prove that they're not any worse than other nationalities.

And yes, people here do pretend not to be Polish. I won't point fingers but if one has a Polish nickname and yet you say you're not only NOT from Poland, but you don't even speak Polish, there is something to think about. If people claim that English is their native language but their sentence structure or their vocabulary doesn't reflect that, there's something to think about.

I would still like to get people's opinion regarding my interview question. Btw, saying that someone's "brainwashed by psychology" doesn't make sense. Yes, Americans contributed a lot to the field of psychology, but you can't be brainwashed by psychology, any more than physics or biology... I'm guessing they meant "self-help" books. Yes, plenty of them are silly, I agree. But the question was not about psychology. It's a job interview, not a shrink session and the objective of an interview is to make the best impression on your potential future employer, not to reveal the inner workings of your psyche or expose your deeply-held religious views.
alexw68
10 Mar 2011  #101
the supposed "different generation" statement is factually inaccurate

It categorically isn't.

Take a sample of 100 Poles born 1970 or earlier. Then another of those born 1985 or later. The hopes, fears, expectations, mental elasticity, attitude to risk-taking etc are a world apart - in fact, there's a significant difference even between 1970 and about 1972 - the latter having at least 2 years of matura-level education, no restrictions on travel to eg Germany after 1989 and before big life-changing decisions had to be made.

PS; I am talking about Poles still in Europe. Granted, the effects of long-term emigration to America may well be different. I don't honestly know much about that.
ItsAllAboutME 3 | 270
10 Mar 2011  #102
true, there are generational differences with respect to any large population. I was questioning P's assumption that Havok belongs to a different generation... Anyway, you can't apply generational categories to individuals. There is a lot more that defines an individual than their date of birth. I know people in their 60's that are more open-minded and adaptable than some people in their 20s and 30s. But let's assume that people here on PF are indeed from a spectrum of generations - I can't seem to find the group that's siginificantly more open to different views or welcoming to people from different countries, so perhaps while other things change, that part remains the same.
PennBoy 76 | 2,438
10 Mar 2011  #103
True and Harry knows that but sorry to say that you are obviously not smart enough to see that they are just teasing you...

puella pllz, i'm not someone after gimnazjum ok? i of course know what he's doing but other people might buy what he's saying (believe him) and i can't have that, so i kinda must go along with it.

many did have. Not sure about the training in Easter Germany though. Nevertheless how many kierowniks was in this factory?

NOT many did have experience in East Germany. How many kierowniks? many after Nowa Huta in Krakow Huta Stalowa WOla was the largest in Poland some 30,000 people worked in 3 shifts (zmiany) are area it covered was enormous, the armament division (tanks, armored transports, artillery, rocket launchers etc) was the largest in Poland. My father said just a few years after he came in the late 70s it got much harder to become a kierownik more and more qualified people.

He was made "kierownik" after half a year in a military factory, after getting a degree and experience in East Germany?

Sunshine, you might not like to hear this - but that kind of opportunity was only going to be given to those who had proven themselves to the Party.

HAHA anybody with a higher education and who did their military service could have went. Out of the men who went to East Germany only a few went back home most stayed there married German girls and had a family. Like i've explained to you here he was never a commie, you can believe it or not i don't care. Like i said don't say lies about him.
Harry
10 Mar 2011  #104
Out of the men who went to East Germany only a few went back home most stayed there married German girls and had a family.

Interesting that the people of East Germany were nice enough to host your father and train him, helping his career greatly. And to repay them he went back to their country and built the weapons that the regime there used to oppress them. Pure class.
puella 4 | 172
10 Mar 2011  #105
Er...not me - Havok?

yes, of course I meant Havok :)

And yes, people here do pretend not to be Polish. I won't point fingers but if one has a Polish nickname and yet you say you're not only NOT from Poland,

You should point fingers because I'm here for so many months, and I feel I really know most frequent PF users and I can't think of any person who could pretend to be not Polish (except that troll POLENEGGG but he actually wasn't pretend to be not Polish, he just didn't mention that too early).

I find people who behave like that (I mean those who are ashamed of their roots or despise it) as being very immature.

if one has a Polish nickname and yet you say you're not only NOT from Poland, but you don't even speak Polish, there is something to think about.

Many people here have Polish wifes and families or friends. Why do you think it's so hard to think of Polish nickname? I can think of English one, that's not a problem - does it mean I'm English?

Actually I still can't think of many users who have Polish nicknames and possibly could be Poles.

Btw, saying that someone's "brainwashed by psychology" doesn't make sense.

Yes it makes sense. I've read many of those positive affirmation books, how to make my life better etc. and I think it's a pure business. Note that Daniel Goleman wrote something like 3-4 books about the same thing (Emotional Intelligence, Emotional Intelligence in Practice, Social Intelligence... and even Ecological Intelligence! ;). They are sometimes intresting to read but many critise it as another fashion whitout real effect.

I'm guessing they meant "self-help" books.

Yes, exacly. I was missing this word :)

It's a job interview, not a shrink session and the objective of an interview

But it's a way of thinking connected with that "self-help fashion". What is the main messege in those books? Think possitive, believe in yourself, you are a master of your fate, you are able to achieve everything etc.

More realistic is to think that of course you have to be active in your life, work hard if you want to be sucessful but you can't expect too much because future is unknown and there are limits. There may happen unexpected thing (e.i. a promising sportman breaks his neck) which probably you could nothing do with.

best impression on your potential future employer, not to reveal the inner workings of your psyche or expose your deeply-held religious views.

So the only wrong thing they made is that they were honest...

I was questioning P's assumption that Havok belongs to a different generation

I just can't relate the problems he brings up here with myself.

Anyway, you can't apply generational categories to individuals.

I think suprisingly we can. I always laught out about those all socjological names for generations: yuppie, X, etc. but when I found the description of current generation I was astonished how many things pointed in the description fit well me and my friends...
ItsAllAboutME 3 | 270
10 Mar 2011  #106
built the weapons that the regime there used to oppress them

you can't be serious, dude... Polish tanks and rocket launchers oppressing East German civilians, LOL!!! what a drama queen!

what is wrong with you, why are you assuming that Penn is lying? what is so unbelievable about an educated and experienced guy being promoted to a manager? or what is so despicable about a father who got a promotion and provide for his family? You have no right of judging people you never met and have no idea about their circumstances.
puella 4 | 172
10 Mar 2011  #107
puella pllz, i'm not someone after gimnazjum ok? i of course know what he's doing but other people might buy what he's saying (believe him) and i can't have that, so i kinda must go along with it.

Everything he writes about you will land in trash bin eventually so don't worry. PF users already know the case and see what is happening.

If you ignore them they will get bored soon, but you heat the atmosphere by discussing with them, by explaining yourself and by calling people names.

Another thing is that you should make apologies for your racist and antisemitic remarks because that's the reason they are teasing you. And they probably stop if you make appologies and try to post your views in more acceptable way next time.
Harry
10 Mar 2011  #108
you can't be serious, dude... Polish tanks and rocket launchers oppressing East German civilians, LOL!!! what a drama queen!

Actually the daddy in question built armored personnel carriers in Poland and East Germany. The very same type which were used against demonstrators in both countries.

what is so unbelievable about an educated and experienced guy being promoted to a manager?

People who were promoted rapidly in key industries were selected on ability and reliablity (i.e. loyalty to the party).

what is so despicable about a father who got a promotion and provide for his family?

If he put his family beyond all other things, it might be understandable. But if he'd really been interested in his family, he wouldn't have abandoned them for years when he fled the fall of communism.

Another thing is that you should make apologies for your racist and antisemitic remarks because that's the reason they are teasing you. And they probably stop if you make appologies and try to post your views in more acceptable way next time.

Nail and head my dear, nail and head.
PennBoy 76 | 2,438
10 Mar 2011  #109
Actually the daddy in question built armored personnel carriers in Poland and East Germany. The very same type which were used against demonstrators in both countries.

Job training in Germany, as for Poland everything they built in HSW went for export to the Middle East, Iraq, Syria, Libya I double checked with him it was all for foreign customers (at least during those 5 years here was there)(Poland's last major armor purchase happened in 81'/82' tanks made in Gliwice, armored transports near Warsaw).

ability and reliablity

education, job training, qualification

teasing you

To be really teasing me they'd have to be face to face with me, and they'd never do it in person.
Mr Grunwald 19 | 1,543
10 Mar 2011  #110
culture, upbringing... It's 100% sure people got different mentality!
OP Havok 10 | 912
10 Mar 2011  #111
Harry, you're quite skilful instigator but your argument is really weak. I don't think anyone is gonna bite
PennBoy 76 | 2,438
10 Mar 2011  #112
culture, upbringing.

Back to topic,......
ItsAllAboutME 3 | 270
10 Mar 2011  #113
People who were promoted rapidly in key industries were selected on ability and reliablity (i.e. loyalty to the party).

I would like to know what makes you an expert on the realities of living in Poland in the 80s.
puella 4 | 172
10 Mar 2011  #114
Job training in Germany, as for Poland everything they built in HSW went for export to the Middle East, Iraq, Syria, Libya I double checked with him it was all for foreign customers (at least during those 5 years here was there)(Poland's last major armor purchase happened in 81'/82' tanks made in Gliwice, armored transports near Warsaw).

Ok PennBoy I see you enjoy your discussion with Harry. Zatem powodzenia!
enkidu 7 | 623
10 Mar 2011  #115
what is wrong with you, why are you assuming that Penn is lying? what is so unbelievable about an educated and experienced guy being promoted to a manager? or what is so despicable about a father who got a promotion and provide for his family? You have no right of judging people you never met and have no idea about their circumstances.

I don't think that the PeennyBoy is lying.
I think that he just believes in the story that his father has told him.
There are a lot of older-generation Poles who insisted that they made their carrier on the basis of the professionalism and the education. Some of them even trying to convince themselves that they were freedom fighters actually.

Now let's talk about the realities of the People's Republic of Poland.
Wast majority of factories, shops etc were owned by the State. In every factory there was an official Party cell. The party was paranoid, the didn't trust anyone, even themselves. Every employee was constantly observed and checked. Every promotion (even to the level of mere shoe factory foreman) has to be approved by the Party cell. And only trusted people get green light.

To be "trusted" one have to prove themselves as a loyal Comrade. Being neutral and keeping the head down was not enough.
How can one prove himself worthy? In two ways. First - the obvious was to become a Party member or a member of various pro-Party organisations. And by being an active member.

Other way was to work "undercover". The Party needs a spies in every factory. Their role was to listen to the people talking and report.

This is an average factory.

In the military factory - there was absolutely, totally no way for somebody who was not willing to collaborate to get a job. Even as a floor sweeper.
puella 4 | 172
10 Mar 2011  #116
And by being an active member.

being an active member meant to give speeches on 1st May. Nothing more.

And yes they were paranoid because it was a chain of corruption among party members. Poland wasn't Eastern Germany and it was never about ideology. Just about "układy"...
pgtx 29 | 3,160
10 Mar 2011  #117
Just about "układy"...

....which engraved in Polish mentality to these days...
Marynka11 4 | 675
10 Mar 2011  #119
I don't think that the PeennyBoy is lying.
I think that he just believes in the story that his father has told him.
There are a lot of older-generation Poles who insisted that they made their carrier on the basis of the professionalism and the education. Some of them even trying to convince themselves that they were freedom fighters actually.

Well said Enkidu.

Edit
However I wanted to add a true story from my past: it was the year eighty something. My older brother was about to take his entry exam to secondary school. It was a somewhat competitive school. It was also the year of elections. The normal course of events was to ignore the whole thing. However, my mother was very worried about my brother getting into the school. My parents were fighting the whole morning over going to the elections, and in the afternoon my mother went to vote. She said, she wouldn't forgive herself if my brother didn't get to the school because of her failing to vote. My father stayed home.

Only nowadays I see under what kind of pressure the generation of our parents was. Some people had to cave in, and it wasn't because they were evil. There was life that had to be lived, kids that had to raised and fed. We have only a vague idea how it was like to be in their shoes.
ItsAllAboutME 3 | 270
10 Mar 2011  #120
So, in effect, what you're saying is, in the 80s, everyone in Poland with a respectable position was an incompetent party loyalist? That there was no point in getting education and being smart and working hard? That an "engineer" would get hired regardless of their qualifications? Following that line of thinking, the whole "educated" class was just a bunch of incompetent idiots. Obviously, you won't agree with that statement, and you will promptly give an example of someone you know or someone from your family who did well, got educated, etc. and was not an active communist, or socialist, or whatever there was. So, in essence, you can't apply a generalization to every individual out there. As I said, you don't know anything about Penn's father and yet you claim to know him better than his own son.

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