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I'm from Polish descent. CAN YOU GUYS EXPLAIN THE EU TO ME?


skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
12 Mar 2010 #62
@amn
I agree with your summary...
Bzibzioh
12 Mar 2010 #63
I do not think that the Poles in power really understood the bit about secular values, and democratic political accountability, about human rights and equal rights for minorities and the rule of law

The rule of law? Are you saying that between 1989 and accession to the EU there was a total lawlessness in Poland? Sure, there was an urgent need to change the communist times laws but bad or good they were still the laws. And speaking of lack of secular values you made it sound like Poland is ruled by the church, like in Israel or Iran. Or do you mean that Poland is so backward as to not accept gay marriages, gay adoptions, state-sponsored abortion, euthanasia etc with open arms because it is such a brilliant idea and beneficial to us all?
Peter KRK
12 Mar 2010 #64
My impression is that Poland joined the EU in order to

The truth is far more complicated. There are civilization, cultural, economical, family, personal, sentimental, political, historical, military, etc. arguments pro and against EU. Different people could have separate opinions about each of them.

To describe it in the simple words: the most important thing is that foreigners absolutely do not realize how strong and deep divisions are in the Polish society. That is why they can not understand Polish policy, behaviour, etc. so often. Sometimes Poles tell jokes about two countries Pol and Ska here. As I wrote it is a simplification, but there is a part of "europeans" who have no problem with modern civilization values, acceptation of other cultures, minorities and Europe as a kind of big homeland. They are deeply attached to "our western" style of life, culture, values regardless of their age or material favours. Unfortunately you can't find them among this Polish sink managers or hopfer pickers you like to laugh at. The other group composes a strange zoo where the post-soviet style of live is blended with the catholic values, obsolete nationalism, xenophobia, soap-opera education level and pride of XII century victorias. Poles owe to them a lot of stupid stereotypes you can find on this forum too. There is a huge gap between this two mentioned societies. In fact they don't communicate each other. So when you are writing about for instance: "Polish attitude towards EU" you should choose first: Pol or Ish.
skysoulmate 14 | 1,296
12 Mar 2010 #65
So when you are writing about for instance: "Polish attitude towards EU" you should choose first: Pol or Ish.

Vars or Sava? ;)
kondzior 12 | 1,242
12 Mar 2010 #66
My impression is that Poland joined the EU in order to benefit financially from the EU: from its investment projects, from having a wider market to both buy and sell in, and from the employment opportunities.

Are you telling me that it is something bad? Why else should we join? Why else shoud we sacrifice part of our independence?
I dont mind equal rights for minorities and the rule of law and so on, these are, at large, the good things, but one do not need the EU to have it.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
12 Mar 2010 #67
My impression is that Poland joined the EU in order to benefit financially from the EU: from its investment projects, from having a wider market to both buy and sell in, and from the employment opportunities.

And all that time I thought Poles, just like all other Europeans, joined EU to suffer financially, to reject any possible investments and to narrow their choices of buying and selling.

Do you have any more of these deep and shocking thoughts to share?

I do not think that the Poles in power really understood the bit about secular values, and democratic political accountability, about human rights and equal rights for minorities and the rule of law, or if they did, they did not want them,

I'm not sure why you are bringing up policies of GW Bush and Tony Blair. Or did you mean Reagan and Thatcher?
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
12 Mar 2010 #68
I honestly don't think that this is what the OP meant Bzibzi.
Are you saying that between 1989 and accession to the EU there was a total lawlessness in Poland? with the EU membership Poles can appeal to the Human Rights Court if they are wrongly treated by their domestic law. That is a great opportunity for those, who for the lack of better option have a chance to find the justice.

And speaking of lack of secular values you made it sound like Poland is ruled by the church

to a certain degree. Catholic church has put a lot of effort to dominate the lives of Polish citizens once the communist was no longer in power. There was a vacuum and CC filled the space, at least it tried.

There are secular values in Poland, but the question is to what degree.
Or do you mean that Poland is so backward as to not accept gay marriages, gay adoptions, state-sponsored abortion, euthanasia etc with open arms because it is such a brilliant idea and beneficial to us all?

not backward, less tolerant in comparison to other new members of EU.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
12 Mar 2010 #69
Or do you mean that Poland is so backward as to not accept gay marriages, gay adoptions, state-

Isn't the whole so called gay movement is "backwards" by definition?
enkidu 7 | 623
12 Mar 2010 #70
This is simple explanation - EU is a Soviet Union coming back in the great style.

We have got unelected president (nobody never voted for him):
youtube.com/watch?v=lqovTGjYjM4

We have got EU High Commission which rule and is not responsible to anyone. (Of course EU Commission members are not elected - they are granted the right to sit there. The can not be removed)

We have got an EU Foreign Office minister - highest paid female politician in the word. That Lady was NEVER in her life to be elected to any office.

EU was a beautiful dream. Right now it becoming an nightmare.
Bzibzioh
12 Mar 2010 #71
to a certain degree. Catholic church has put a lot of effort to dominate the lives of Polish citizens once the communist was no longer in power.

I would agree that CC has influence but is not ruling. That's the huge difference. In the vacuum situation it's better to have church reminding people about moral code and responsible behavior than letting people go wild.
Varsovian 92 | 634
12 Mar 2010 #72
I am amazed to find that anyone sentient feels the EU is functioning along democratic lines except on paper. Or indeed in accordance with the rule of law - see my reference to the fact that its own auditors have refused to sign off the accounts for over 10 years due to poor accounting and fraud ... and get ignored. Theft and lying, according to Bratwurst, is perfectly acceptable for the greater goal of tight central control of a unified Europe.

Some people simply won't listen.

And some people simply won't play by the rules. The UK medical authorities cannot check the English skills of any EU nationals - but they have to check the English skills of Australian doctors! Might be funny except a German doctor killed a patient recently because of language problems. The right injection - but ten times the strength. But it's OK, he's promised not to do it again.

The French, meanwhile, always check. They're not in the same EU, you see.

Teaching qualifications from EU Member States are valid in the UK, but no other EU Member State that I know of reciprocates. Totally illegal, but the French, Germans, Italians etc live in a different EU.

The Standing Committee on Operational Cooperation on Internal Security (COSI) is planning massive incursions into privacy - it will start amassing large quantities of data on individuals from schools and universities "in order to prevent young people from turning to crime." EU Big Brother
convex 20 | 3,978
12 Mar 2010 #73
Isn't the whole so called gay movement is "backwards" by definition?

Why do you think that?

In the vacuum situation it's better to have church reminding people about moral code and responsible behavior than letting people go wild.

Yes, people went completely apeshit in countries like the Czech Republic without the church being there to remind people the difference between right and wrong....
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
12 Mar 2010 #74
Isn't the whole so called gay movement is "backwards" by definition?

not in my books, nor in any inclusive society.

I would agree that CC has influence but is not ruling. That's the huge difference.

that is another topic all together.

In the vacuum situation it's better to have church reminding people about moral code and responsible behavior than letting people go wild.

I did not make a judgement, just an observation. I agree that there are certain values instilled by CC which benefit the society and keep it cohesive. However, if that said CC values do not allow to include whole society, I see a problem.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
12 Mar 2010 #75
Why do you think that?

Don't they use back doors by choice?

not in my books, nor in any inclusive society

Thankfully, there are a lot of books to choose from.
convex 20 | 3,978
12 Mar 2010 #76
Don't they use back doors by choice?

I prefer using front doors by choice, I'm frontwards?
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,442
12 Mar 2010 #77
Thankfully, there are a lot of books to choose from.

I agree. I was raised in a tolerant home (in Poland and my parents were not hippies- just decent folks who worked hard and understood that tolerance makes you life hell lot better), so I keep thanking my mother for it.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
12 Mar 2010 #78
Teaching qualifications from EU Member States are valid in the UK, but no other EU Member State that I know of reciprocates.

Poland certainly is happy to accept UK teaching qualifications - the only clause is that teachers must have a Masters degree as well as a recognised teaching component. The fact that this rules out many UK teachers is simply a failing of the UK system as opposed to it being any fault of Poland's.

The UK medical authorities cannot check the English skills of any EU nationals - but they have to check the English skills of Australian doctors!

Why not? Nothing in EU law stops them from demanding minimum qualifications/abilities in English. And it's the fault of UK law to bother checking Australian doctors!

The UK has always had a weird relationship with the EU - she's bitterly against it at times, yet she always over-interprets EU directives to the point of insanity.
Harry
12 Mar 2010 #79
The fact that this rules out many UK teachers is simply a failing of the UK system as opposed to it being any fault of Poland's.

I'll call bullsh!t on that one. The fact that the Poland considers a course which can be done in four years of post-school education (or five years of post-school education when done every other weekend!) as superior to combination of qualification which are done in a minimum of six and more usually seven years of post-school education is most certainly not a failing of the UK system: it is very much the fault of Poland.

Personally I'd like to see the UK stick two fingers up at the EU by adding a third year to A levels (thus making Uni a minimum of two years instead of the current three) and then describing A levels as first cycle Bologna process qualification and making the standard British BA a second cycle qualification!
RevokeNice 15 | 1,859
12 Mar 2010 #80
Melting pot EU

That cant be right. Ireland(4m people) has received nearly the same amount of immigrants of the USA(300m) in 2006?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
12 Mar 2010 #81
Harry, you would do well in some of these institutions. I can't look at it in such a linear fashion. There is some need for classification of course but I dislike excessive bracketing. More important is finding sufficient outlets for applying that which you have learned.
voice of reason - | 32
18 Mar 2010 #82
delphiandomine

Maybe so but UK hasn't benefitted from the EU in any way.
jwojcie 2 | 763
18 Mar 2010 #83
@FUZZYWICKETS
Whatever CNBC is telling, Germans didn't bail-out Greeks yet. Many people in media seems to trying make an impression that Germans are pushed to the wall, well they aren't. There is no law which can force them to pay, there is even no law which can allow them to pay. What is more, Germans are quite comfortable with weaker Euro. In the end, maybe Germans will pay, but probably only if it will be convenient to them. BTW. certainly weak Euro is not USA or UK dream what partially can explain Anglo-saxon media attiutude. Currently there is big world competition named "who can weaken currency more" in hope for export trade profits, because internal markets in developed world are weak.

In Germany, the Germans have only been able to afford to subsidize French farming because they stick their defense tab to the Americans

As for this defense argument it is for many years USA choice. Nobody is forcing USA to have all this forces in Europe.
convex 20 | 3,978
18 Mar 2010 #84
Currently there is big world competition named "who can weaken currency more" in hope for export trade profits

Especially for the countries, like Germany, who are huge exporters. For the US and the UK, it's a near catastrophe...they don't produce enough to see benefit vs. the inflation that devaluation causes. It just ends up hurting the citizens rather than helping them.

As for this defense argument it is for many years USA choice. Nobody is forcing USA to have all this forces in Europe.

It was mutually beneficial for a number of years, now that the situation has changed, it no longer makes sense.
Crow 149 | 9,405
18 Mar 2010 #85
when we are on topic

What we have in Greece is (among else) actualy little rebbelion against German financial domination in EU. Greaks are traders and they want more for their role in EU.

Before that, events in case with dissolution of former Yugoslavia and partition of Serbia, were also connected with German ambitions to impose its dominance. So, front of resistance to Germany increasing with time and form of that resistance diverse from zone to zone. `Greak case`, particulary, affecting situation in Evro zone. `Serbian case` affecting situation in case with German expansion (well know `drang nach osten`) on area that belong to Slavic civilization.

But, let no be mistake. That what are Serbs for Slavic world- traditionaly first defensive line, those are Germans for so called west (for anglo-Germanic world)- traditionaly first attacking line. Serbia (or to say Serbians- term is of much wider sense then just Serbia) would be in troubles as long as Slavic civilization retreat but, if (rather when) things change, Serbs would turn from defansive into first offansive line (in any sense) and, Germany would found itself in troubles. Then and just then, Germany would learn true menaing of `Great Serbia`- term that is too often used in anti-Serbian propaganda in false accusations of Serbians.
king polkagamon
18 Mar 2010 #86
The Greek problem has many aspects.Simply the country cannot stand in international competition despite the immigrants\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\' black labour and the inflows from the EU.Why it cannot compete stems from a variety of factors let\\\\\\\\\\\\\\\'s say there are 1000 reasons under that which cause a waste of human and material resources.

Now the incompetent govern completely.I hope that the crisis will accelerate their fall.I really was surprised some years ago how much easier it was to make money in Greece in comparison to Germany and now we see the reasons.

You see people without any knowledge becoming professors etc others getting paid for scratching their testes all day long,the worst students getting all the rewards.Of course all this happens everywhere the difference is that Greece lacks a mechanism and an ethics system to make the competent work.There are also lots of lazy people in Germany who get high salaries but the ones who are put in the crucial positions really work and there is always the eye of social control to watch them how much they produce.

All this social control,pressure and social contract system does not exist in Greece the country simply lives by inflows of EU,tourism and ships.Before the crisis it did not matter but now the lenders have been drawn off they don\\\'t have cash to give.
convex 20 | 3,978
18 Mar 2010 #87
The Greek government promised more than they could deliver, and now they're being called out on it. Not too difficult too comprehend.
king polkagamon
18 Mar 2010 #88
Yes,because there is an estimated critical mass.For example how much you can reduce the wages without risking a social breakdown.Is 20% decrease in living standards acceptable?Or is it 30%?For example if the government tells the Germans 20% will not be tolerated the Germans will answer you lie to us or it is your problem,sorry mate you did the sh1t you have to eat it now.
jwojcie 2 | 763
18 Mar 2010 #89
For the US and the UK, it's a near catastrophe...they don't produce enough to see benefit vs. the inflation that devaluation causes

Well, I'm not sure about that. Certainly that is what they are trying to do lately. Whether by choice or by no other choice both US and UK are producing accounting entries on their central banks books with great volume and speed. The goal obviously is to stay afloat and stop deflation before all this excess homes fall on their heads and topple banking system. I would say they are definitely trying to inflate but so far they failed. If they finally will succeed and trigger some internal inflation then externally it would mean currency devaluation, well it would if others wouldn't do the same. As for production it is kind of cliche that US or UK don't produce anything anymore. They are and still have quite big industrial base.

It was mutually beneficial for a number of years, now that the situation has changed, it no longer makes sense.

Old habits die hard ;-)

What we have in Greece is (among else) actualy little rebbelion against German financial domination in EU. Greaks are traders and they want more for their role in EU.

You mean going broke is a sign of rebellion and getting better position? What a great idea!
Bail us out so we can get our 13-th and 14-th pay or we do, hm... what exactly?
convex 20 | 3,978
29 Mar 2010 #90
delphiandomine: The problem is that without the EU having the power to dictate, we would never see things like Open Skies in the EU.

Holland signed up for a bilateral open skies agreement in '92 despite huge objections by the EU.

delphiandomine: It actually does make things significantly better in many areas - the EU should be more efficient now

How's that working out?

delphiandomine: Remeber, people voted for national parliaments

Which is why we know that the majority of people in the UK supported the war Iraq :)

So what is the EU endgame? To have parallel governments? Does that make sense?

jwojcie: As for production it is kind of cliche that US or UK don't produce anything anymore. They are and still have quite big industrial base.

It's a service based economy that consists primarily around consumption.


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