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Why are Polish so conservative and religious?


johnny reb 16 | 3,400
23 May 2015  #181
You claim to be Catholic

No such claim was ever made Harry so you are wrong AGAIN.

If you want to be a Catholic, you have to go to church every Sunday.

Missing a sunday of church DOES NOT disqualify you from being a Catholic.
What if you are sick, what if your job requires you to work, what if you have an infant ?
What did your read say Harry ? So you are wrong AGAIN.
Missing a sunday of church DOES NOT disqualify you from being a Catholic.
It is just considered a "grave sin" is what I read. Quite simple.
And since mass is now being said on Saturday evenings which exempts you from attending on sunday, if you really want to split hairs.
Now please............back on thread.
jestesidiotka
23 May 2015  #182
I think Johnny Reb is right. It would be a sin, but not an excommunicable one.
there have been services on Sat evenings for those who cannot make it on sunday for many years.
Harry
23 May 2015  #183
Missing a sunday of church DOES NOT disqualify you from being a Catholic.

No, it just means that you are not doing the very minimum required by your religion. How religious is a person who doesn't even bother to do the very minimum required by his religion? Not very!

Do feel very free to read what the Vatican say about that

"If because of lack of a sacred minister or for other grave cause participation in the celebration of the Eucharist is impossible, it is specially recommended that the faithful take part in the Liturgy of the Word if it is celebrated in the parish church or in another sacred place according to the prescriptions of the diocesan bishop, or engage in prayer for an appropriate amount of time personally or in a family or, as occasion offers, in groups of families.

So, in short, none of the things you mention are a free pass.

And since mass is now being said on Saturday evenings which exempts you from attending on sunday,

No, attending mass on Saturday does not exempt a person from the need to go to Sunday mass, read what the Vatican says.
Atch 17 | 2,743
23 May 2015  #184
Harry, the simple truth is that like most things in life, the theory and the actual practise of Catholicism are two very different things. First of all the average Catholic knows nothing at all about Canon law or what the Vatican says and wouldn't be visiting the Vatican website to check on it either I can tell you! Going to mass on a Saturday evening instead of a Sunday has become common practice and no sensible person, even of limited mental capacity would consider themselves to be committing a sin of any kind in doing so. Most Catholics learn their religion in primary school and from whatever practices are observed in their own home during their childhood with such practises varying from family to family. And that relatively simple form of religion is the one they practise for the remainder of their lives.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467
23 May 2015  #185
Saturday worship has the full approval of the Vatican. Remember the commndment bids: Keep holy the Sabbath which amongst Jews was Saturday and after Vsatican II the Saturday option was added for Cahtlolics.
Atch 17 | 2,743
23 May 2015  #186
Harry, just to let you know I checked it out and apparently the Saturday evening mass is actually the Sunday mass. It's a bit loosely defined but it's generally agreed within the church that if mass takes place from 5pm onwards on Saturday evening, it is classified as Sunday mass. As Father Ted said 'that's the great thing about Catholicism, it's all so vague and nobody really knows what it's all about'.

Just to add, when you go to mass on a weekday it only takes about half an hour, but the Sunday mass takes around forty five mins because you get the sermon and a few little extras. So Sunday mass is a different more elaborate one than an ordinary one. So if you go on Saturday evening and get the sermon you're sorted.
johnny reb 16 | 3,400
23 May 2015  #187
quote by Harry

If you want to be a Catholic, you have to go to church every Sunday. It really is that simple.

quote by the Reb

Missing a sunday of church DOES NOT disqualify you from being a Catholic.

quote by Harry

No, it just means that you are not doing the very minimum required by your religion

Harry you can't have it both ways.
quote by The Reb

What if you are sick, what if your job requires you to work, what if you have an infant ?

quote by Harry

So, in short, none of the things you mention are a free pass.

quote by Harry

Do feel very free to read what the Vatican say about that

Here Harry, let me re post what YOU posted in post #183 about what the Vatican has to say about it.

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason (for example, illness, the care of infants) or dispensed by their own pastor.119 Those who deliberately fail in this obligation commit a grave sin.

So see Harry by your own admission of guilt you are wrong AGAIN.
Now PLEASE, back on thread and quit pretending you know the Catholic Canon.
Harry
23 May 2015  #188
Saturday worship has the full approval of the Vatican.

Of course the Vatican approve of worship on every day. However, attending mass on Saturday does not exempt a Catholic from going to mass on Sunday.

the Saturday option was added for Cahtlolics.

There is no option for Catholics to attend mass on Saturday instead of Sunday. A person who chooses to not go to mass on Sunday is not doing the minimum required by the Catholic religion, even if they attend mass on Saturday.

As Father Ted said 'that's the great thing about Catholicism, it's all so vague and nobody really knows what it's all about'.

Here it's crystal clear and set out in the precepts.
Atch 17 | 2,743
23 May 2015  #189
Harry, have a look at this:

Question:

What does the Church say exactly about the Saturday evening Mass? - J.G., Arras, France

Answered by Legionary of Christ Father Edward McNamara, professor of liturgy at the Regina Apostolorum university.

'The norms permitting the celebration of Sunday Mass on a Saturday evening are not overly detailed and thus different practices and notions have arisen around the world.

Even though this practice is relatively recent with respect to the Sunday Mass, the Church had long maintained the custom of beginning the celebration of important feasts the evening before, with first vespers. This was inspired by the concept of a day in the ancient world which divided our 24 hours into four nocturnal vigils and four daylight hours, the day commencing at first vigil.

The general law does not specify the precise time after which Sunday Mass is possible. However, 5 p.m. is the common rule in the Diocese of Rome and in many other places. Any time much earlier is hard to conceive as being Saturday evening in any meaningful sense of the term.'

ewtn.com/library/Liturgy/zlitur242.htm
Szenk88HTAFC 2 | 47
23 May 2015  #190
Do you think that God really gives a stuff if you rock up to Church every Sunday? Is he going to exclude you from his thoughts just because you've not spent an hour in his house? Of course not.

Poland is a conservative and religious country, that's why I like it so much.

Every time I read about a nation being "progressively liberal" I read "neo-fascist", because essentially that is what you end up with.
johnny reb 16 | 3,400
23 May 2015  #191
quote by Harry

However, attending mass on Saturday does not exempt a Catholic from going to mass on Sunday.

Sure it does Harry.
You now are just being redundant after that sixth shot of vodka.
We have explained it for you but we can't understand it for you.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467
23 May 2015  #192
Wrong again, but you still think you're right. That's what a Know-All is all about. Forget the online stuff and websites and talk to a normal priest. Attending mass on Saturday afternoon or eveningfulfils a Catholic's obligtion to keep holy the Sabbath. Attneding a nuptial (wedding) mass on a Saturday also does.

Here is the official Chruch positon:
Q. If I go to Holy Mass on Saturday night, does that attendance fulfill my Sunday Obligation to attend Holy Mass as required by the First Precept of the Church?

A. Yes, it does. Church Canon Law # 1248 §1 states: "The obligation of assisting at Mass is satisfied wherever Mass is celebrated in a Catholic Rite either on a holyday itself or on the evening of the previous day."

For the Holy Mass to considered as the fulfillment of one's Sunday or holiday obligation, it must be a celebration of the liturgy (prayers, readings, Gospel) of the Sunday or holiday of the following day.
Atch 17 | 2,743
23 May 2015  #193
The local priest certainly would be happy to see even a half full church on a Saturday evening, rather than an empty one on a Sunday, whatever Canon law says. And of course God doesn't care whether people go to church on a Saturday instead of a Sunday. It's the job of middle management ie the Vatican to worry about that.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467
23 May 2015  #194
In the US far more people attend mass on Saturday than on Sunday. In fact the term Sunday Mass is used only by the elderly -- the more contmporary term is Lord's Day Liturgy.
Harry
23 May 2015  #195
Harry, have a look at this:

Atch, have a read of the 1983 code of Canon law:

Can. 1248 §1. A person who assists at a Mass celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the feast day itself or in the evening of the preceding day satisfies the obligation of participating in the Mass.

vatican.va/archive/ENG1104/_P4N.HTM

Just attending is not sufficient, one needs to assist at the mass in order to meet the minimum required by the Vatican from religious Catholics.

Do you think that God really gives a stuff if you rock up to Church every Sunday?

No, I don't. But we aren't talking about faith here, we're talking about religion, and the Roman Catholic religion does give a stuff, as they make crystal clear in their laws and precepts.

Attending mass on Saturday afternoon or eveningfulfils a Catholic's obligtion to keep holy the Sabbath.

As the code you try to quote but didn't read makes clear, a person needs to assist at mass, not just attend.

In the US far more people attend mass on Saturday than on Sunday.

In your country more Catholics go to Sunday mass every week than in Poland. Would you like to tell us that your USA is a very religious country?
johnny reb 16 | 3,400
23 May 2015  #196
Would you like to tell us that your USA is a very religious country?@ Harry

Come visit the Baptist Bible Belt of the USA and draw your own conclusion on that Harry.
After that we can start counting all the Catholic churches that were mostly built by the Polish immigrants.
Atch 17 | 2,743
23 May 2015  #197
Just attending is not sufficient, one needs to assist at the mass in order to meet the minimum required by the Vatican from religious Catholics.

Harry, I'm afraid the term to assist used in the context of mass, means the same as attend. We learned about this in secondary school. Assisting at the mass means that you don't just sitting there, admiring the stained glass windows or making up your shopping list in your head while the priest rambles on. It means that you pay attention, perhaps follow the rite in a missal (that practice gradually became discouraged but a lot of older people still carried it on). With respect to you and indeed to everyone else we're all somewhat out of our depth here. Canon law and liturgy are incredibly complex and none of us are really sufficiently educated in it to be having a debate on it. But I think particularly if you weren't raised as a Catholic it's very hard to understand the weird and wonderful nuances of how Catholicism is actually practised and how the Canon is interpreted in the real world.
Harry
23 May 2015  #198
Assisting at the mass means that you don't just sitting there, admiring the stained glass windows or making up your shopping list in your head while the priest rambles on. It means that you pay attention, perhaps follow the rite in a missal (that practice gradually became discouraged but a lot of older people still carried it on).

I seem to remember learning at primary school (which was run by Dominican monks) that assisting wasn't the same as participating; specifically, only the Catholic kids were allowed to assist during school masses but all the kids were encouraged to participate.
Atch 17 | 2,743
23 May 2015  #199
I think what they meant was assist in the sense of bringing up the offertory gifts or doing one of the readings. Did you attend religion classes in the school Harry?
Harry
23 May 2015  #200
Did you attend religion classes in the school Harry?

Of course I did. Apart from anything else, in the UK religious education classes and compulsory, it's only in countries such as Poland where religious education classes are optional.
Dougpol1 27 | 2,690
23 May 2015  #201
The reason the Polish youth are so non-religious is because of how they are forced at the age of nine into the Catholic FAITH.

Happy to fix it for you Jonny :)
TheOther 5 | 3,716
23 May 2015  #202
start counting all the Catholic churches that were mostly built by the Polish immigrants.

Ethnic Poles built most catholic churches in the US?

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Catholic_churches_in_the_United_States
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Roman_Catholicism_in_the_United_States
Atch 17 | 2,743
23 May 2015  #203
Of course I did. Apart from anything else, in the UK religious education classes and compulsory, it's only in countries such as Poland where religious education classes are optional.

You sound a little affronted. I'm not criticizing you. I just wondered. The Dominicans are a nice order, generally very reflective and intelligent in their approach. It's very interesting that you went to a Catholic school. How long were you there?
Harry
23 May 2015  #204
You sound a little affronted.

No, not at all.

How long were you there?

Five years, I think. And then three more years at Catholic university (not the one in Lublin).
johnny reb 16 | 3,400
23 May 2015  #205
quote by Dougpol1

The reason the Polish youth are so non-religious is because of how they are forced at the age of nine into the Catholic FAITH.

Where did you find that quote Dougpol ?
It sure is not one of mine.

Happy to fix it for you Jonny :)

Start fixin' what ?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467
23 May 2015  #206
For all their merits and failings, it is widely believed that Brits at least know their English. One meaning of to assist means to be present, to attend, As in French asister or Polish asystowsańá. In English another meaning is to help or aid. Assisting at Holy Mass does not mean sweeping the aisles or lighting the candles -- that's the job of the sexton and altarboy respectively. I suspect the poster knew all that but his contrarian self cannot help but latch onto whatever causes controversy.
FromLodz
24 May 2015  #207
"Would you like to tell us that your USA is a very religious country?@ Harry"

Harry, your ignorance never stop surprising me.

Alabama is more religious than Iran. Now sum to that Texas, Lousiana, Kansas, Oklahoma, and at least another 20 states.
Harry
24 May 2015  #208
Assisting at Holy Mass does not mean sweeping the aisles or lighting the candles

Strangely, the Dominican friar who taught us disagreed with us about that, but given that you think you know better about Catholicism than the Vatican does, I guess you think you know better than him too.
MariuszBista - | 1
24 May 2015  #209
Yes Poland is not "progressive", in that they adhere that humans still have dignity and nature acts for an end. That unlike the U.S which has allowed something like 55 million murders of innocents since Roe Vs. Wade. And that we believe that humans are more than body parts and atoms so that exposing ourselves in public and inciting lust in ourselves and others is wrong, that in being truly free man is not subject to his sexual appetite and senses. And that Gay "Marriage" is not allowed, because of the "absurd" belief that nature acts for an end so that our sexual organs may be ordered to a purpose such as producing a child within marriage instead of doing what we wish with our bodies and holding our selves captive to lust and animalistic pleasure. And for your information, St.Thomas Aquinas has given the world the gift of a LOGICAL PROOF OF GOD, its yours for the reading (under proper direction of course). I hope Poland continues it's rich Catholic, logical, beautiful tradition.

Ad Astra Per Aspera
Mariusz
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,467
24 May 2015  #210
The homo-marriage referendum has clearly toppled the ludicrous claim that Ireland is more Catholic than Poland on the basis of some people's obsessive Sunday head-count criteria. That would never go over in Catholic Poland.


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