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Why are Polish so conservative and religious?


Gosc123456
21 May 2015  #151
Even is not going to Church every sunday, most Poles consider themselves catholics. I don't know any kid not baptised or not doing his/her communion. I can count on my fingers the Poles I know (I live in Poland) who claim to be atheists. The huge majority of Poles consider themselves and are catholics. If the Church is subsidized by taxpayers, there is religion in schools (but no sex education ;)), there are crosses everywhere in public buildings, abortion and same sex mariage are forbidden, the Church have their word to say in all public affairs, it is obviously because the big majority of Poles are catholic. It is difficult to be atheist, jewish, muslim, protestant, budhist, or whatever else in Poland. Of course, it is not forbidden but the pressure is so tough that it makes things difficult if we are "different"... I am an atheist (of catholic "origin") and I could never live outside of Warsaw as I would be considered like the devil.... Very sad but tak jest! .
Harry
21 May 2015  #152
The fact that a person doesn't attend the church EVERY sunday doesn' mean he/she is not catholic anymore.

The Vatican disagree with you.

I don't attend mass on sundays (obviously) except when i am at Poland or Brazil and i still consider myself a practicing catholic.

People can consider themselves to be whatever they want to consider themselves to be, that won't change what they are and what they are not. People who do not go to church on Sundays and holy days are not doing "the very necessary minimum in the spirit of prayer and moral effort" required by the RCC.

Most of my friends and poles that i know don't go to church EVERY sunday for a series of reasons.

The only acceptable reasons, according to the RCC, for not going to mass on Sunday are lack of a minister or "another grave cause", and even then Catholics should either take part in whatever service is available or devote suitable time for prayer alone.

If people become atheist by not going EVERY sunday like you said

Please try not to lie about what I say. Thank you.
Shaman
21 May 2015  #153
There are few logical falacies is here.
One:
The fact that you are religious doesn't mean you have the same views as every other religious person. E.g. My family member believes in God, goes to church every Sunday but is absolutely pro anti-conception, pro gay e.t.c. Being religious doesn't mean you follow church in every matter.

Two:
The number of Catholics is judged on the number of baptism- most of my atheist friends never bothered to do apostasy. The same with babies- most of my friends baptised their kids not because they will in any way raise the kid in a Catholic faith but because the grandma/aunt wanted them to do it.

Three:
Many Catholics don't like the church being involved in politics and public life. Not to mention that quite many hate radicals like Rydzyk

Being atheist is not hard even in smaller towns Guest. I was an atheist since I was 17 and I come from a town from under 100 000 ppl. So you talking about being a devil and all that is pure bs.
Levi_BR 6 | 220
21 May 2015  #154
People can consider themselves to be whatever they want to consider themselves to be, that won't change what they are and what they are not.

Harry, you can say one hundred times that 66% of the Poles are Atheist/Agnostic, you can repeat that lie every day. It will still be a lie. You will just be lying to yourself.

97% of the Poles self-declare themselves as catholics.

The only anti-clerical candidate, Palikot, even with a well-funded campaign, was a total failure and had 1,5% of the votes.

The most voted candidate is a fervorous catholic. The second one also.

The most surprsing part is that even the FOUNDER of the Communist Party, Leszek Miller, is a catholic. Poland is the Only country that i know in the world were even Communists are Catholics!

And you come and say that Poland is a atheist country?

hahahahaha.... sounds like when you said that in Britain people were supportive of Left-Wing policies, for just weeks later Cameron epically crush the Lefties :)))))))

Many Catholics don't like the church being involved in politics and public life.

Me too. I Like the moral and the values of the church.

But i don't like when they talk about economics.

And i am a catholic.
Gosc123456
21 May 2015  #155
Miracle! I agree 100% with Levi!!!!! ;). Of course almost all Poles consider and are catholics. What's the percentage of atheists (for instance) in Poland? Probably less than 2% (over 50% in most western European countries). And like Levi says, even in parties such as SLD, they are strong catholics. As to Palikot, he has become less anti-Church for the only reason that Poland is a catholic country.

As to being atheist, it was probably easier before 1989 but in modern Poland, it is not. When I daresay that I am an atheist, people are shoked as they assume that everybody does ;).

-------------------------

The State should be neutral and (all) churches should finance themselves without taxpayers' money (which is the case in a lot of western European countries). As an atheist, I don't see any reason why I should sponsor the Catholic, Jewish, Muslim, Buddist, or whatever religion.

"... consider THEMSELVES" and "... assume everybody does GO TO CHURCH".... I deleted part of my writing ;)
Levi_BR 6 | 220
21 May 2015  #156
The State should be neutral and (all) churches should finance themselves without taxpayers' money (which is the case in a lot of western European countries).

Do you think that orphanages should pay taxes?

Or asylum for elder people?

Or the Doctors without borders, should they pay taxes?
Gosc123456
21 May 2015  #157
@Levi : Taxpayers pay for public things, which is normal. The Catholic Church is extremely rich (the Vatican is the richest state in the world) so why don't they help their poor members? There are hundreds of millions of starving catholics around the world. In Germany for instance (I am NOT an expert of Germany but as I worked there when a student, I can tell about what I have experienced), taxpayers have to give their ok to have the religious tax taken out of their salary to be given to the Church of their choice and if people claim to be atheists, they don't pay (it was like that some 20 years ago but I assume it's still the same). In France ( where I have lived as an expat, there is no public funding (normal as complete separation of religion and State since 1905) I know that the Catholic Church owns a lot of real estate in Paris which they rent and manage.

In Poland, the catholic church is sponsored by all taxpayers, who have nothing to say.... I know Poles who are furious about that but there is nothing they can do (or work under the table ..). As an atheist, I am against sponsoring any religion. A State should be neutral and should not sponsor any ideology. Besides, they all have billions of dollars, euros, or whatever so they can survive
Levi_BR 6 | 220
21 May 2015  #158
l. The Catholic Church is extremely rich (the Vatican is the richest state in the world) so why don't they help their poor members?

Serve yourself:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_charitable_organizations_in_the_Roman_Catholic_Archdiocese_of_New_York

PS: This list is ONLY in New York.

In My country, the biggest charity, by far, is the Pastoral da Crianca. They almost won a Nobel (but they preferred to give the prize to Barack Obama...)
Gosc123456
21 May 2015  #159
@Levi: "lol" Wikipedia??? Do you know what Wikipedia is? Don't tell me that you believe it's "scientific"!!!!I understand now why you copy-paste any bs.. ANYBODY can write in Wikipedia and therefore we find everything and its contrary.... Nevertheless, although the Catholic (not to mention other religions) does some charity, it is a drop of water into the ocean considering the huge wealth of the Vatican (I shall not talk about wrongdoings such as those from Banco Ambrosiano and other scandals (other than the too numerous pedophile cases since not the topic ;)). There are hundrreds and hundreds of starving catholic around the world and the Vatican is full of gold. It's purely obsene and all those Vatican leaders are fatter than fat pigs. In Poland churches are gorgeous, rich, inspite of the poverty for most people. Not long ago, a Polish politician was telling me about the priest in his village near Kielce who was as fat as 3 pigs and lived in the largest and best house in the area...

Sorry, I don't want to sponsor those people (from ANY religion) and why should I? Nobody prevents you from financing them so do it and let the others have the choice!
johnny reb 16 | 3,125
21 May 2015  #160
The fact that a person doesn't attend the church EVERY sunday doesn' mean he/she is not catholic anymore.

The Vatican disagree with you.

Harry, who told you such nonsense.
Harry
21 May 2015  #161
Harry, you can say one hundred times that 66% of the Poles are Atheist/Agnostic, you can repeat that lie every day.

I'd need to say that once first; I never have and probably never will.

Harry, who told you such nonsense.

Would you like me to link to the Vatican website? I'm more than happy to do that when I next get to a proper computer, just let me know.
johnny reb 16 | 3,125
22 May 2015  #162
The reason the Polish are so religious is because of how they have been brought up in the Catholic FAITH.
Your off thread baiting is pure nonsense Harry.quote by Harry

In order to be a member of the Catholic church one has to meet the minimum requirements of the RCC. One of "the very necessary minimum[s] is going to church every Sunday.

quote by Harry

It's not me who says going to Sunday mass every week is the necessary minimum: it's your church.

quote by The Reb

Harry, who told you such nonsense.

quote by Harry

Would you like me to link to the Vatican website?

Not necessary Harry.
Since you like statistics so much why don't YOU show us on your Vatican website the statistics
on how many Catholics have been excommunicated from the Catholic church for not meeting the minimum requirement of not going to church every sunday.
You have been suggesting that the Polish are not religious and they are nolonger Catholic because they don't attend church EVERY sunday.
Could you show us where it says that on your Vatican website by any chance also ?
Oh, and you don't need a "proper computer" to go to the Vatican website, your's should work just fine. lol
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
22 May 2015  #163
FLASH! BREAKING NEWS! THIS JUST IN!
Poland's latest Sunday mass head count has just dropped to 29.372% It is unclear at this point whether the RCC can last another year.
smurf 39 | 1,982
22 May 2015  #164
Poland's latest Sunday mass head count has just dropped to 29.372%

Good

It is unclear at this point whether the RCC can last another year.

Even better
Harry
22 May 2015  #165
FLASH! BREAKING NEWS! THIS JUST IN!
Poland's latest Sunday mass head count has just dropped to 29.372%

Oh dear, you're making things up again, aren't you.
The reality is that although the 2014 survey was carried out on Sunday 19 October (as can be seen here: iskk.pl/news/194-dominicantes-2014.html)
the results are not yet available, the most recent results available are for 2013 (as can be seen here: iskk.pl/kosciolnaswiecie.html)

But I suppose when reality is so strongly against the fantasies a person might have, it is entirely understandable for a person to just make up even more things and to escape into a fantasy world.

Even better

You really think so? I think that the relationship of the RCC and the state of Poland needs fundamental reform, as does the RCC itself, but I also think that the complete removal of the RCC from Poland would be very damaging for certain people. Some parts of the RCC do do very good work, let's not forget that.
johnny reb 16 | 3,125
22 May 2015  #166
quote by Harry

Oh dear, you're making things up again, aren't you.

Who Harry ? You ?
quote by Harry

But I suppose when reality is so strongly against the fantasies a person might have

So just how many Catholics have been excommunicated for not going to church every sunday Harry ?
quote by The Reb

Could you show us where it says that on your Vatican website by any chance

Yes, case in point, many, such as you, post fantasies about the Catholic Church.
And then when ask to back up such claims they get side stepped like this one.
Is this a reality that Polish people have a reputation for being not so religious because they don't
go to church EVERY sunday or is it a fantasy ?
Harry
22 May 2015  #167
Who Harry ? You ?

No, I'm quoting data from Instytut Statystyki Kościoła Katolickiego, the Polish Statistical Institute of the Catholic Church. Sorry that that data shows the exact opposite of the situation you would like there to be in a country you have never set foot in.

many, such as you, post fantasies about the Catholic Church.

Again, I'm posting data from the Roman Catholic church, data about Poland, data about Ireland and data about Malta. The fantasies come from people who think they know better than the RCC about who is and is not a practising Catholic.

Is this a reality that Polish people have a reputation for being not so religious because they don't go to church EVERY sunday or is it a fantasy ?

I wasn't aware that Polish people have a reputation for being so religious. As I live in Poland I don't get to hear too much about the reputation of Poles outside Poland. However, I do know that the data shows that Poles simply are not very religious. Even in the USA people who self-identify as Catholics go to church regularly at a greater rate than here in Poland but we are always hearing from the likes of you and Polonius what a godless rabble the people of the USA are.
Gosc123456
22 May 2015  #168
@Harry: even is some Poles don't go to Church on a regular basis (especially educated well off people in cities), it does not change the fact that most all Poles consider themselves catholic. They believe in God, they are baptised, they do their communion, they marry in Church, they get buried in Church run cemetaries... If you believe that Poles are not religious, what can you say about Western countries? ;). Most western European countries are close or even more than 50% of atheists. Look at Spain, Portugal (secular state since 1976), France where only 15% of the whole population practice a religion (and 4.5% of the catholics attend Church), just to talk about countries of catholic origin. Among the socalled protestant countries, look at UK, Sweden, the Netherlands... !

I bet in Poland there is max 2% atheists compared to min. 50% in western Europe and therefore, yes, Poles are catholic. Poles claim to be catholic so why do some foreigners deny it????
Harry
22 May 2015  #169
most all Poles consider themselves catholic.

Amusingly, the percentage of Poles who describe themselves as Catholic is higher than the percentage of Poles who say they believe in God.
However, it is that self-identification a Catholics which shows that Poles are not really religious: religious Catholics are required to go to church every Sunday and every holy day; the overwhelming majority of Poles do not do that. Maybe if they were from a religion which said to its believers 'Come to church as often or rarely as you want' their behaviour would be accepted.

If you believe that Poles are not religious, what can you say about Western countries? ;).

As noted above, Poles in the UK are far less likely to go to church than the average Brit in the UK.
Gosc123456
22 May 2015  #170
@Harry: you cannot deny that Poland is much more religious that all the other countries in Europe (let alone maybe Malta, where divorce did not even exist until a couple of years ago because of the Church). Compare Poland with other countries of "catholic origin"! In Western Europe (re catholism), most people in Portugal, France and also Spain are atheists. In Central Europe, for instance in the Czech Republic 57% of the population claim to be atheist. In Latvia it's about the same... Even Ireland is changing; today referendum re same sex mariage and the Yes should win (amazing).

In those countries, there is no religion in public affairs, contrary to Poland where the church runs everything ...
gregy741 4 | 1,205
22 May 2015  #171
contrary to Poland where the church runs everything

what do they run?any example?
Gosc123456
22 May 2015  #172
@Atch: you know, here it's basically extreme right wing territory ;)

@Gregy; easy to understand: Church getting tax money (I have no word to say but have to pay to Church ;)), catholic education in public schools, catholic symbols in public buildings, cemetaries outside of Warsaw and 1 or 2 big cities are run by the Church. One concrete example, my Jewish born (but converted to catholicism to get easier life ;)) mother-in-law was refused burial (in Katowice) because the woman had not been a "good catholic" (not attending Church and much worse had a child with a married man ;)). We had to give a fat envelope to have her buried. Sickening but what to do with my mother-in-law's body????

Another concrete example. I have a client who lost both her mother and her uncle (mother's brother) within 3 days so my client had requested the Church to do only one ceremony (also in order to save money) and what did the priest do? Yes, he gave only 1 ceremony but the Church charged my client for 2 ceremonies...This took place in Mazowiecki. Like in my mother-in-law's case, it is abject. Taking advantage of families' pains to exploit them financially...

My message shall be deleted but never mind, hiding the truth does not help...
Harry
22 May 2015  #173
@Harry: you cannot deny that Poland is much more religious that all the other countries in Europe

I don't need to deny that: I can quote data from the Catholic church which demonstrates that the statement is not true.
Atch 17 | 2,732
22 May 2015  #174
I would like the moderators to explain why they are removing my posts. I answered a query put to me by Gosc123456 and both his query and my reply have been removed. Fifth time asking this. I would ask the moderators to exercise some basic manners and respond to the question. This is not the Soviet Union. Thank you.

Please look in the "random chat" before posting again.
gregy741 4 | 1,205
22 May 2015  #175
what truth? leftist bs repeated over and over is not "the truth"
so,,it took you half an hour to provide me with an example that RCC is running everything in Poland,and you come up with some bs about charging too much money for burial?

go cremate in some private crematorium-sorted
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,449
22 May 2015  #176
That is proof that Poland is Catholic to the core. whether or not some frustrated expat approves or not!
johnny reb 16 | 3,125
22 May 2015  #177
All quotes are Harry's OPINION'S not to be backed up by any proof concerning why Catholics are not religious in Poland.

The Vatican disagree with you.

Show me your source that claims this with their quote.

No, but going every Sunday is what the RCC requires as "the very necessary minimum" from Catholics

Who says, you ?

to be a member of the Catholic church one has to meet the minimum requirements of the RCC.

And those requirements say nothing that you have to attend church EVERY sunday as you keep claiming
to be a Catholic and you can't show any proof otherwise.

Catholics are required to go to church every Sunday and every holy day

Says who, and show me where anything says that.

I don't need to deny that: I can quote data

Then quote that from the Vatican website that you claim says it.

Would you like me to link to the Vatican website?

YES ! please Harry as we are waiting for you to do just that.

I'm more than happy to do that when I next get to a proper computer, just let me know.

You sound like the little boy whistling in the dark......."I am not scared of the dark."
Harry for you to post your personal fantasies on something so sacred to so many people with false
claims about Catholics not being religious because they don't go to church EVERY sunday is beneath contempt.
Harry
23 May 2015  #178
All quotes are Harry's OPINION'S not to be backed up by any proof concerning why Catholics are not religious in Poland.

Do feel very free to click on the links in my posts, they're mainly to information provided by the RCC.

Show me your source that claims this with their quote.

I already have but I'll do it again for you:

The Sunday obligation
2180 The precept of the Church specifies the law of the Lord more precisely: "On Sundays and other holy days of obligation the faithful are bound to participate in the Mass."117 "The precept of participating in the Mass is satisfied by assistance at a Mass which is celebrated anywhere in a Catholic rite either on the holy day or on the evening of the preceding day."118

2181 The Sunday Eucharist is the foundation and confirmation of all Christian practice. For this reason the faithful are obliged to participate in the Eucharist on days of obligation, unless excused for a serious reason

vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s2c1a3.htm

YES ! please Harry as we are waiting for you to do just that.

Go and wait no more.

false
claims about Catholics not being religious because they don't go to church EVERY sunday

Catholics who deliberately fail to go to church every Sunday commit a grave sin, just look at the words of the Vatican.
johnny reb 16 | 3,125
23 May 2015  #179
Thank you for your promptness Harry.

In order to be a Catholic, one needs to do certain things; to be a member of the Catholic church one has to meet the minimum requirements is going to church every Sunday.

It doesn't say that Harry, it says it is a "grave sin" if you don't.
It says nothing about membership or that you will be excommunicated from the church if you don't
attend EVERY Sunday.

It doesn't mean that Catholics renounced their religion or religious beliefs

If you decide to go to "Our Lady of the Lakes" (to do some meditation fishing) on a sunday doesn't
mean you are no longer a member of your downtown church.
It simply means you have violated Catholic Doctrine instilled guilt of it being a grave sin.
You could justify going fishing instead as mental therapy for a sick mind.
God is the judge, not some church nor do they claim to be if you miss a sunday or two.
It doesn't say you will no longer be a member of the Catholic church or burn in hell if you miss an occassional sunday. So therfore your statement that it is a REQUIREMENT to go EVERY sunday to be

a member is simply not what it says.
My debate with you on this issue is over Harry from this point on our posts could go nowhere but off thread from here which is a grave sin of the Polish Forum and we could be judged into darkness for eternity.

Stay well my friend.
Harry
23 May 2015  #180
It says nothing about membership

You claim to be Catholic but have never heard of the Precepts of the Church?! Sigh.

Catholics should consult the Precepts of the Church as a sort of "self-assessment" by which their compliance with the minimum criteria for active Church membership can be measured. Non-Catholics can consult the list to see what would be expected of them as Catholics.

canonlaw.info/precepts_noaudio.htm

The first precept (there are only six) is: Attend Mass on Sundays and on holy days of obligation, and rest from servile labor.

If you want to be a Catholic, you have to go to church every Sunday. It really is that simple.


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