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Bishops defend Polish family


polonius 54 | 420
7 Oct 2012 #1
For the benefit of those PF-ers who haven't yet made it over to chruch today, in a letter read out in Poland’s churches on Sunday, the Polish Episcopate expressed concern over the fate of the Polish family which is a victim of the social, cultural and economic crisis. It decried attacks on the family by the news and entertainment media including attempts to ignore,slight or replace the complete family with civic partnerships. That is among the reasons for Poland’s low birth rate ranking the country 209th amongst 222 countries. The letter recalled Mother Teresa’s words saying that a child should be regarded as God’s greatest gift to man,
Appleby 1 | 25
7 Oct 2012 #2
There has been research done about the relationship between marriage and low fertility levels. And although the bishops are right when they talk about a connection between these two before the 1990's, it has been shown that there is no longer any relationship after the 1990's.

Have a look here -
ssc.upenn.edu/~hpkohler/papers/Low-fertility-in-Europe-final.pdf
- then page 12:
" In summary, the above analyses reinforce the argument that the emergence of lowest-low fertility during the 1990s has been associated with fundamental shifts in the relationships between fertility and marriage. In particular, there has been an increasing disconnection between marriage patterns and fertility levels after the emergence of lowest-low fertility in the 1990s in cross-sectional analyses of European countries, and marriage formation and dissolution are no longer important predictors of national fertility levels in cross-sectional analyses of European countries during the late 1990s (see also Heuveline et al. 2003). Moreover, the above analyses show that the aggregate cross-country relationship between partnership formation/dissolution and levels of fertility has become quite indeterminate in the late 1990s, which is strikingly different from the strong relations between fertility and union formation and dissolution that prevailed 20 years earlier."

There are also some graphs on page 13 of the report.

So what are the reasons:

- page 23 - the lowest-low fertility countries (...) provide highly insufficient child-care support
- page 24 - The labor market is also relatively inflexible in terms of possibilities for part-time work or re-entering the labor force after an absence due to child-birth

- page 24 - high integration of young adults in their parents' home and extended family may even discourage union formation and fertility (Dalla Zuanna 2001)
- page 24 - The moderate and very low quantum in Eastern Europe is in part determined by similar institutional factors hindering high parity progression probabilities. In addition, many of the pronatalist-or at least family friendly-policies in CEE countries have discontinued after 1990 (Macura 2000), and the economic crisis has deteriorated particularly the high integration of women in the labor market. Furthermore, Eastern Europe is characterized by a persistence of economic insecurity throughout the life-course. (Yes, yes, yes, I know, it says "Eastern Europe")

- page 24 - In Eastern Europe, the uncertain long-term outlook regarding unemployment, the housing situation and economic recovery implies that uncertainty affects not only the timing of the first birth but also the transition to the second child and higher-parity children.

- etc
- etc
- etc

In other words, nothing much about civic partnerships - nothing at all in fact.
OP polonius 54 | 420
7 Oct 2012 #3
I don't believe the bishops were concerned about scientific analysis or statistics for their own sake. Their concern was based on morality, and extramarital partnerhships are regarded as an evil -- living in sin. If it turned out that those shacking up produced more children than married couples, I doubt it the Church would supprot, encourage or condone that developemnt.
Appleby 1 | 25
7 Oct 2012 #4
Polonius - it wasn't me who started to bring in science; it was actually you:

That is among the reasons for Poland’s low birth rate ranking the country 209th amongst 222 countries

.
I just showed you it wasn't. Please make up your mind.
OP polonius 54 | 420
7 Oct 2012 #5
I was only summarfsing the letter which included the 209th position of Poland.
Appleby 1 | 25
7 Oct 2012 #6
But the reason WHY PL is on the 209th position has nothing to do with civic partnerships. So the letter is factually wrong.
Zibi - | 336
7 Oct 2012 #7
I don't believe the bishops were concerned about scientific analysis or statistics for their own sake.

Oh they never are, in fact very little of they do has anything to do with reason. In this case as well.
OP polonius 54 | 420
7 Oct 2012 #8
According to Catholic belief, morality and ethical concerns are superior to material considerations, scientific data or rationalising away one's trannsressions. I know all about the borgia poisoner popes, that the frog scumbag Richelieu and soem paedophile priest in Dublin or Podunk, Iowa. Presenting the standards and principles does not imply that everyone has always m,asured up. I say this becuase I know from past experience that some on PF are just itching to use any pretext to tie into Holy Mother the Church.
Appleby 1 | 25
7 Oct 2012 #9
belief

scientific data

I hope you see the difference, Polonius. The church wants to make you believe that the declining birth rate is because of civic partnerships, yet scientific data proves otherwise.
OP polonius 54 | 420
7 Oct 2012 #10
Regardless of its impact on fertility, extramarital copulation is immoral no matter what fancy name it goes by: common law, cohabitation, partnership, shacking up, etc.! And those born out of wedlock are illegitimate children aka bastards. Let's not be afraid to call things by their right name. The PC types claim if you call something by a different name it solves the problem. But a pile of dog droppings remains what it is no matter what we call it, or even if we spray it with gold paint.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
7 Oct 2012 #11
I think went through all this ranting before some time ago, no ?
Polish bishops should be the last ones to teach people about moralities, not with Paetz in their midst and a sizeable portion supporting Mr. Maybach....
Orpheus - | 114
7 Oct 2012 #12
And those born out of wedlock are illegitimate children aka bastards.

You are a bastard. A rotten, black enamel bastard.
jon357 63 | 15,116
7 Oct 2012 #13
No children are ever illegitimate. All are of equal worth.
OP polonius 54 | 420
7 Oct 2012 #14
The children bear no blame for their predicmanet but theri crudball parents are guilty as hell and inconsiderate and selfish to boot.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
7 Oct 2012 #15
You are completely ill
OP polonius 54 | 420
7 Oct 2012 #16
No, I am only tring to be Semper Fidelis. You've heard of principled people I trust. High moral standards, not feel-good fun and convenience are supreme.
pawian 173 | 12,565
7 Oct 2012 #17
Polo, relax. I see you are really boozed up. Come on......

No, I am only tring to be Semper Fidelis. You've heard of principled people I trust. High moral standards, not feel-good fun and convenience are supreme.

Please, stop, for Heaven`s sake! Jesus is looking at you and crying!

Did Jesus pick the "right" children when he urged his apostles to let them come to him?

Why are you constantly debasing Poles and Poland with this mad fanaticism?
jon357 63 | 15,116
7 Oct 2012 #18
Please, stop, for Heaven`s sake! Jesus is looking at you and crying!

+1

You are completely ill

Or more probably just pretending for whatever unknown reason.
OP polonius 54 | 420
7 Oct 2012 #19
Maybe it's the PC world you so admire that is sick. It cannot stand aynone or anything that disavows the grime and crud of run-away hedonism and egoism. Believe it or not, there were actually people who disliked JP2 for telling it like it is. Maybe not too many in Poland, but plenty in the Euroslime zone. I recall during a trip to Belgium, some went out to welcome him and take part in the services whilst others munched sausages and drank beer in cafés watching the goings-on from afar.
Foreigner4 12 | 1,769
7 Oct 2012 #20
And those born out of wedlock are illegitimate children aka bastards.

Let us suspend sensibilities which are not dictated by a corrupt organization affecting sound reasoning and say "yes this is true according to definition of the word."

So what?
So what does if a baby is born a "bastard?"
What the does that mean to you, your highness?

The PC types claim if you call something by a different name it solves the problem. But a pile of dog droppings remains what it is no matter what we call it, or even if we spray it with gold paint.

Is that what it means to you?

I will not argue with you as you can think whatever you want but I am curious as to your answers.
jon357 63 | 15,116
7 Oct 2012 #21
crud

Euroslime

Is there no end to the bile?
OP polonius 54 | 420
8 Oct 2012 #22
Foreigner4
So what does if a baby is born a "bastard?"

That does not discredit the poor child, but it reflect badly on its stupid, thoughtless and irresponsible parents. Often in such cases the footloose father takes a powder, and the baby may even end up not getting baptised. A messy situation all round! And ultimately the child will suffer the most.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
8 Oct 2012 #23
That does not discredit the poor child, but it reflect badly on its stupid, thoughtless and irresponsible parents.

It reflects nothing but your own unhappiness with your life. Someone posting this kind of stuff at half 1 in the morning cannot be content with themselves.

Often in such cases the footloose father takes a powder, and the baby may even end up not getting baptised.

Any proof, or is this just another example of you pushing your personal issues as fact?

And ultimately the child will suffer the most.

I suspect the child will suffer far more from being called a "bastard" by some random old man than by his/her parents not being married.
Ironside 49 | 10,447
8 Oct 2012 #24
Mr. Maybach....

do you think that repeating that lie many a time you are doing something good?wrong!

It reflects nothing but your own unhappiness with your life. Someone posting this kind of stuff at half 1 in the morning cannot be content with themselves.

Sure it reflect badly on children ie their parents irresponsibility and lack of morals. that is obvious.

I suspect the child will suffer far more from being called a "bastard" by some random old man than by his/her parents not being married.

Are you nursing ambition of become a fiction writer or this is your way of being offensive to old man you don't even know?
pgtx 30 | 3,158
8 Oct 2012 #25
So what does if a baby is born a "bastard?"

it is quite upsetting what you write on PF, Polonius. i would expect that from the forum trolls, but not a mature, (i guess) educated, Catholic man.

Sadly, because of people like you, stereotypes are born.
And all the values, which Catholics are supposed to believe in, go to trash.
I guess, not believers are statistically more decent people.
Patrycja19 63 | 2,699
8 Oct 2012 #26
I agree, I find this crap.

but it reflect badly on its stupid, thoughtless and irresponsible parents

just a personal opinion. but hes never had to butter his own toast in the real world.
Rysavy 10 | 308
8 Oct 2012 #27
page 23 - the lowest-low fertility countries (...) provide highly insufficient child-care support
page 24 - The labor market is also relatively inflexible in terms of possibilities for part-time work or re-entering the labor force after an absence due to child-birth

I would ask what the Church is actively doing to support and assist these couple that "did it right"? Or the community of parish members?

Especially in countries where it is so supported and has so loud a voice. My small catholic church in Arizona rural mtn town actually gave assistance with daycare. I was a volunteer watcher then. No other parish has yet, regardless of size, affluence or region; that I've seen.

I have 3 children at this point of time. 7-15-17. I would likely had 1-2 more if not for CHILDCARE and the high curve of RENTERING WORK FORCE. And I started late so ruined the career I worked a decade to build. I suppose in some regions you can beat this out by having a rapid litter bang-bang-bang straight out of high school and THEN working you career up..IF the default working partner is supportive, stable, mature, grounded and really pulls during the adjustments. So many "IFS". I am in full support of traditional and conservative values. Even if I fell short myself >_<.

But I also would ask what the Church is actively doing to support and assist these couple that "did it right"? Especially in countries where it is so supported and has so loud a voice. My small catholic church in Arizona rural mtn town actually gave assistance with daycare. I was a volunteer watcher then. No other parish has yet that I've seen.

When (understanding a "should" since long term planning sometimes can go awry) my dearest and I marry we have spoken of children.

(I am a divorcee. Even now, still having my parish work out how I can be in my position.LOL. The parameters for allowable divorce and remarriage within the Church are met. And then some. BUT There are some criteria that inbue that I was not even considered properly married. So how to not have my children -all baptised-..become bastards overnight is a pickle ^_^ )
f stop 25 | 2,513
8 Oct 2012 #28
And ultimately the child will suffer the most.

Here I have to agree with delph. If the child will suffer it will be strictly because of narrow-minded, vile old fools like you.
Meathead 5 | 470
8 Oct 2012 #29
Is there no end to the bile?

The American Right Wing...very often practicing and devout Roman Catholics. Irrational and unchristian.
jon357 63 | 15,116
8 Oct 2012 #30
On here it sometimes seems that way. In real life I know Americans who are staunch Republicans, very religious and usually very well mannered - people who wouldn't ever dream of saying anything like that.


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