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Selling a car without putting it in your name - Multiple Umowas - what's the deal?


Maluch 30 | 95
23 Jul 2014 #1
Very common practice in Poland for people to sell a car that is not registered in their name. They have Umowa from when they bought the car, and then sign a new one to you, saying they sold it.

They have never officially registered the car themselves.

What is the law regarding this? I know it is very common practice, but are they liable at some point to pay taxes on the purchase? or a fine for not registering it?
Looker - | 1,121
31 Jul 2014 #2
Very common practice in Poland for people to sell a car that is not registered in their name. They have Umowa from when they bought the car, and then sign a new one to you, saying they sold it.

They have never officially registered the car themselves.

To me it's totally illegal - I wouldn't buy a car when a seller on Umowa is not a proper (legal) owner of that car.

What is the law regarding this? I know it is very common practice, but are they liable at some point to pay taxes on the purchase? or a fine for not registering it?

According to law car is not their since they are not registered at Umowa - tax is paid by the buyer - new owner - and he is required to register it with own name within 30 days from the date of purchase.
peter_olsztyn 6 | 1,098
1 Aug 2014 #3
What is the law regarding this?

It is illegal not registering a car after 30 days.

or a fine for not registering it?

but they usually keep a car off the public road and tray to sell it.

The real threat to them is the last OC deadline. OC find them even in the cave :)
OP Maluch 30 | 95
9 Aug 2014 #4
true about expired OC - i have heard fines of 3000zl

I will answer my own questions. so apparently the authorities don't really care so much if you register the car ever. but.... you do have to pay taxes on purchase price (2%) otherwise you will have trouble
Dougpol1 32 | 2,673
9 Aug 2014 #5
It is illegal not registering a car after 30 days.

Yawn - I bought a car from Germany and was driving it here for nearly three months on German plates and with ongoing monthly cover before I found the time to register it. And I didn't go to prison.

All this exaggerated respect for the "law" on this forum gets my goat. Most of us are too busy living to be overly concerned with regulation after regulation.......ad nauseum.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
9 Aug 2014 #6
I have a couple of questions if anyone definitely knows the answers:

Regarding insurance -- I was told (rightly or wrongly) that under some new law, car insurance continues with the old insurer unless a new insurer takes over. That is the default position and from that it seems that a car can never be uninsured because the old insurer has responsibility somehow even if the driver or owner of the car does not pay or does not buy new insurance. This to me sounds impossible, but it seems to be what some people say is the case now. The question must surely be what is the limit? Because the old insurer cannot insure the car free indefinitely! So, I must be misunderstanding the situation. Anyone clarify?

My second question is much simpler -- are right hand drive RHD cars allowed to be registered here yet?
Snowflake - | 71
10 Aug 2014 #7
Regarding insurance -- I was told (rightly or wrongly) that under some new law, car insurance continues with the old insurer unless a new insurer takes over. That is the default position and from that it seems that a car can never be uninsured because the old insurer has responsibility somehow even if the driver or owner of the car does not pay or does not buy new insurance. This to me sounds impossible, but it seems to be what some people say is the case now. The question must surely be what is the limit? Because the old insurer cannot insure the car free indefinitely! So, I must be misunderstanding the situation. Anyone clarify?

The insurance companies now are obligated to underwrite car insurance under current conditions (or better) to avoid situation of non-insuranced users. There is no limit, but no more than you're paying in current terms.

rzu.gov.pl/skargi/najczestsze-pytania-i-odpowiedzi/Problem_podwojnego_ubezpieczenia_OC_posiadaczy_pojazdow_mechanicznych__20876

My second question is much simpler -- are right hand drive RHD cars allowed to be registered here yet?

Yes, till 2013y. RHD cars are allowed to be registered under polish high court decision:

rejestracjaautwersjaangielska.blog.onet.pl
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
10 Aug 2014 #8
The insurence companies now are obligated to underwrite car insurance under current conditions (or better) to avoid situation of non-insuranced users. There is no limit, but no more than you're paying in current terms.

I still cannot understand how they can do that if no one pays them. Non-insured or uninsured motorists are a problem in the UK but there is a fund to compensate drivers or any party who are affected by an uninsured driver there. Here in PL it seems hard to comprehend how the old insurer just keeps covering the car for free. I can't get my head around it. (The UK uninsured drivers scheme is here: mib.org.uk[/url]

Yes, till 2013y. RHD cars are allowed to be registered under polish high court decision:

Since 2013 RHD cars can be registered? However, I am sure someone here on PF said he went to his local car reg office and they laughed at that idea :)

Anyway, thank you for that link and blog info -- I shall print it out and take it to the office here if they refuse to register a RHD that I might transfer to PL.
OP Maluch 30 | 95
10 Aug 2014 #9
Since 2013 RHD cars can be registered? However, I am sure someone here on PF said he went to his local car reg office and they laughed at that idea :)
Anyway, thank you for that link and blog info -- I shall print it out and take it to the office here if they refuse to register a RHD that I might transfer to PL.

I'm inclined to laugh too... although I don't know the law about RHD cars. I do know the prices are like half price of normal cars.

My understanding was that certain exceptions could be made for 'classics' but that RHD cars are not registrable here.
peter_olsztyn 6 | 1,098
10 Aug 2014 #10
Yawn - I bought a car from Germany and was driving it here for nearly three months on German plates and with ongoing monthly cover before I found the time to register it. And I didn't go to prison.

So what?

car insurance continues with the old insurer unless a new insurer takes over

or until it expires. Old insurer after selling a car acknowledge insurance company I sold my car. I have umowa to avoid automatic renewal.

uninsured motorists are a problem in the UK but there is a fund to compensate drivers or any party who are affected by an uninsured driver there

In PL there is a fund too. Ubezpieczeniowy Fundusz Gwarancyjny
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
10 Aug 2014 #11
Very useful to know, thank you.

So from what Peter has said, it seems car insurance can expire in PL. That I can understand. Insurance continuing 'free' for a car indefinitely I cannot understand.
Snowflake - | 71
10 Aug 2014 #12
Sorry guys, here is rectification about RDC,

It is said that Poland breach international rules by deny registration RHC, and it's said that polish government is obligated to conform polish law to international rules.

But how and when, nobody knows...

The question must surely be what is the limit? Because the old insurer cannot insure the car free indefinitely! So, I must be misunderstanding the situation. Anyone clarify?

From 2012:

The old insurer can insure your car automatically in the name of the law and you are obligated to pay them for all period that you were under protection until you'll file a resignation letter.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
10 Aug 2014 #13
The old insurer can insure your car automatically in the name of the law and you are obligated to pay them for all period that you were under protection until you'll file a resignation letter.

So, if I understand correctly, it is possible for a car to have no insurance if the old insured person sends a cancellation letter to the old insurer. Then no insurer insures the car unless the owner of the car or a new owner takes out insurance. This I think is an illegal situation in Poland, even if the car is off the road and on private land.

It is said that Poland breach international rules by deny registration RHC, and it's said that polish government is obligated to conform polish law to international rules. But how and when, nobody knows...

One of the posters here said PL will never comply !
Snowflake - | 71
10 Aug 2014 #14
Nope, it's fully legal situation.
When previous owner send a cancellation letter and new owner won't buy new insurance then car will be without any insure and out of action (off the road). It is comfortable option when you own a car but it is out of use from some reasons.

Even current owner , in any time, can send a cancellation letter to insurer when decide to leave the car without any protection, but then is not allowed to drive this car on a public road.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
10 Aug 2014 #15
then car will be without any insure and out of action (off the road).

Thanks Snowflake. I was previously told a Polish car must always be insured even if it's in the owner's flat's underground car park. But, it seems that advice was wrong.
Snowflake - | 71
10 Aug 2014 #16
Till 2012 it was correct advice, but laws are changing and now it is possible to have registered ( or not) and uninsured car :) but it's really out of action, if not, you can get some huge ticket.
peter_olsztyn 6 | 1,098
10 Aug 2014 #17
When previous owner send a cancellation letter and new owner won't buy new insurance then car will be without any insure

It is true but from this moment UFG is looking for owner and can send him sweet letter with 3000zł fee.

It is comfortable option when you own a car but it is out of use from some reasons.Even current owner , in any time, can send a cancellation letter to insurer when decide to leave the car without any protection, but then is not allowed to drive this car on a public road.

Are you talking about PL or UK? It is not true in PL. You can only ask for temporary off the road status (from 2 to 24 months) and only for special cars lorries > 3.5 tonne, cranes, buses etc and you can ask for OC 95% discount because car is off the road or on private land.
Snowflake - | 71
10 Aug 2014 #18
Peter, if UFG would do that, they have to talk with my lawyer first, becouse he have different opinion about private cars ( many of them are incomplete, some of them are registered , some are not anymore) on my private land.

They can ask, and you can refuse, but how do they now without any revision?
Dougpol1 32 | 2,673
11 Aug 2014 #19
One of the posters here said PL will never comply !

Moi. Think about it - Poland has a populist government. A sizeable percentage of non-college graduates buy and sell or fix up cars for a living

The RHD market would heavily erode those businesses.
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
11 Aug 2014 #20
I dare say, but I was hoping they'd let RHDs as it would save me some hassle. Nevermind, that's how the steering wheel cover crumbles.
OP Maluch 30 | 95
11 Aug 2014 #21
back on topic .. although I'm enjoying the Insurance info too :)

You can definitely Not register a car without penalty. I registered a vehicle today, which I bought from a guy who drove it for 2 years!!! without ever registering it. With the registration card for the car, his original Umowa for when he bought it, and our new one for our transaction - everything good to go. The lady at desk didn't think anybody (old owner) had done anything wrong - this is normal practice in Poland.

That said - would I want to get in a major car accident in an unregistered vehicle, or drive it in a different country? - No.

Now I just have to figure out where to pay the tax :P
InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
11 Aug 2014 #22
You can definitely Not register a car without penalty

I'm a little lost, sorry Maluch. Are you saying that you had to pay a penalty/mandat before they let you register it? How much? If you don't mind me asking.

Now I just have to figure out where to pay the tax :P

If it's Wro, it's the building on the corner opposite Arkady, just 3 mins walk from the first office.
peter_olsztyn 6 | 1,098
11 Aug 2014 #23
Peter, if UFG would do that, they have to talk with my lawyer first

Don't tell us what you will do or you going to do. OP asked What is the law regarding this?

guy who drove it for 2 years

He drove it without OC definitely.

The lady at desk didn't think anybody (old owner) had done anything wrong

She should go back to the school.

this is normal practice in Poland

No it isn't. Everyone is afraid of driving a car without OC because of paying compensation in case of accident.
Snowflake - | 71
11 Aug 2014 #24
Yep, I wouldn't dare to drive a car without OC insurance.

Peter, polish law can supprise you in very unexpected way.
Many rules are not observe, and that is one of them.

Cost of deregister and afresh register is not much bigger than presumptive fine.
And when you have car registered outside Poland you are de facto above the law.

But guys, i had RH car from my brother who lives in UK, and my advice is better buy some LH car for your own safe.
OP Maluch 30 | 95
15 Aug 2014 #25
Maluch:this is normal practice in Poland
No it isn't. Everyone is afraid of driving a car without OC because of paying compensation in case of accident.

Peter - I never mentioned anything about OC at all. I was talking about having multiple Umowas (the title of this thread). It has always had OC - I wouldn't touch a vehicle without it (I have heard about the hassles and complications).

inWroclaw - yes that was a typo - no fines or anything. she didn't care that i had never been registered in previous owner's name.


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