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Poland student visa refusal - 'intention to leave'


TITAS    
11 Jun 2015  #1
Hi, I applied for Poland student visa. But my visa was Refused only for a single reason. Here it is: "your intention to leave the territory of the republic of Poland before the expiry of the visa could not be ascertained" So which document can be valuable for appeal against this refusal. Is there anyone who can answer this question please? I'm really helpless and I need help. Thanks.
DominicB - | 2,645    
12 Jun 2015  #2
Well, it's pretty simple. You failed (yes, the fault is all yours) to provide sufficient evidence that you will return to your home country before the visa runs out. I don't know what you don't understand here. It's very clear.

An appeal would probably be useless. They are going to want to see documents that clearly prove that it is in your best interest to return to your home country, like owning a business or property there. Students generally do not have such demonstrable strong ties to their home countries. Perhaps if you are an heir to a serious business or property of serious value and have the documents to prove it.

Otherwise, you'd be wasting your time and money on an appeal.
Polsyr 6 | 771    
12 Jun 2015  #3
May I ask how long is the academic program you intend to attend in Poland?
OP TITAS    
12 Jun 2015  #4
Hi, Thank you for your reply. I'm applying for 3 years Undergraduate course.
Polsyr 6 | 771    
12 Jun 2015  #5
Have you been accepted, planning to apply or applied and waiting for answer? Also, in which country did you apply?
OP TITAS    
12 Jun 2015  #6
I applied for Poland student visa. I need answer. I want to know if I appeal against the visa refusal then which document I need to submit.
Polsyr 6 | 771    
12 Jun 2015  #7
Can't comment without knowing more.
Gosc123456    
13 Jun 2015  #8
@Polsyr: "commenting" won't change situation ;). If Polish authorities have refused to issue the visa, it is obviously because they were not convinced by the applicant's file. Each country has the right to accept and to refuse foreign visitors and so has Poland ;).

Thus, giving your opinion solely on the basis of what the OP shall tell you and not on the basis of his real file shall be completely useless.

And as to hiring a lawyer, simply waste of money and of time. OP does not meet requirements to be accepted in Poland and that's it...

@Titas: of course you may waste money and time to appeal but to no avail. You were denied the visa because you don't meet Polish visa conditions and that's it. You know, Poland (and any other country) does NOT have to give (you) a visa.

Try another country and that's it! Why Poland anyway?
OP TITAS    
13 Jun 2015  #9
Hi, Thank you for your reply. Ya, I decided not to appeal. I will submit my documents for another country.
Gosc123456    
13 Jun 2015  #10
@Titas: an appeal shall change the situation (refusal was based upon your file) and shall be a waste of money and time, during which you can apply to another country and move ahead.

.... "shall NOT change..." - obviously ;)
Polsyr 6 | 771    
13 Jun 2015  #11
@ Gosc, I agree with you - My advice for a STUDENT is, unless you have no other options then don't bother with an appeal.

But, FYI; I personally know people that have appealed and saw changes. They were applying for a visa for business purposes. But it was such a big drama and it made some consular staff show the very worst of their very worst.

Keep in mind that while rules are clearly written in black and white, the ultimate decision making power in terms of issuing a Schengen visa (or not) is the personal discretion of the consul reviewing the application.

Even if there are no "red flags" the consul has the power to reject an application because he/she simply isn't satisfied with something - in the case of OP that applicant will leave before end of visa validity. For example, someone from India earning $1000 a month at an IT or engineering job has very a good reason to return to their home country, because with that salary they can have a decent life in India. On the other hand someone applying in the UAE with that same salary doesn't, because with that salary they are struggling to make ends meet. This is where local experience or know-how comes into play, and there are no written rules regarding this aspect for example.

Also, if the consul knows a person that has been given a visa (or more) in the past and has respected the terms of their visa (or visas), they have the option of issuing them a longer term visa than what the person has actually requested (6-12-24 months for example) So, believe it or not, there is a bit of trust building with the consol involved.
Gosc123456    
13 Jun 2015  #12
@Polsyr: you are talking about exceptional cases concerning business people as supported by their companies = completely different from someone applying on his own for a student (or a tourist)'s visa. If a visa is retused in such cases, there is nothing to do about it. The authorities consider the person's file and base it upon the conditions as set by country. If they feel convinced that for instance the applicant has no sufficient funds or does not give enough guarantee they would return home, the visa is refused and it does not help to argue about it on a generalist forum.

It is obvious that those asking for legal or administrative advice do not say everything and we don't know everything contained in their file and thus it is completely stupid to give them "advice".

The Polish State does NOT owe anybody the right to be issued a visa and therefore should a visa be denied, the person has to look for another country and to try there.

Of course, people like the OP may take lawyers and appeal but what's the purpose since it shall not change the situation/
Polsyr 6 | 771    
13 Jun 2015  #13
@Gosc you and me are saying the exact same thing.
Gosc123456    
13 Jun 2015  #14
@Polsyr: ok! :)

People when asking for advice on the net, be medical, legal or administrative or any other nature, never give all details, either they don't want to give them or they don't believe they are relevant and therefore it is impossible to get clear picture.

I personally would never give advice re such matters mainly because I am no expert and to mislead someone because giving them wrong or partial info is not responsible. If someone has a medical problem, I advise them to seee a doctor, if it is a legal problem, I refer them to a lawyer....

Such matters are too important.
DominicB - | 2,645    
14 Jun 2015  #15
Even if there are no "red flags" the consul has the power to reject an application because he/she simply isn't satisfied with something

Exactly. There is considerable, almost absolute, discretion afforded to the consul in such cases, and it is very rare indeed that another consul or superior is going to second-guess his judgement. The burden is 100% on the applicant to prove that they fulfill the requirements of the visa in question, and to eliminate all doubts from the mind of the consul, who not only has the right, but the duty, as well, to be vigilant, cautious and skeptical. The applicant not only has to prove that there are no plausible reasons against granting the visa (or "red flags"), but also that there are abundant and sound reasons for granting the visa.

In this case, the applicant clearly failed to provide sufficient reasons for, and probably provided sufficient reasons against granting the visa, which automatically substantially increases the burden were an appeal to be filed. To the point where there is little hope that a mere prospective student would be able to meet that burden. If he were an established businessman with strong ties to his home country and had the documentation to back it up, an appeal would make sense. But not in this particular case, in which the consul is starting on the firm and well-justified assumption that the applicant is most likely not going to honor the terms of the visa. An appeal would be simply a waste of time and money for all involved. Nor would the nature and status of his application and acceptance into a Polish university be likely to alter anything, as the reason the consul rejected the visa in the first place almost certainly had little, if anything, to do with the decision, which is almost certainly because of the fact that he did not answer the consul's questions in a manner consistent with that of a serious prospective student.

Gosc is also correct that the OP is almost certainly overstating his case and leaving out important details. However, even if more honest details were provided, it would not change the fact that the OP is just not going to be granted a visa to Poland.

One thing you are both missing is that the consul is under no obligation to provide a full or "honest" reason for rejecting the application. They are under no obligation to provide any reason at all. The OP's mistake was to assume that, just because box on the form next to "your intention to leave the territory of the republic of Poland before the expiry of the visa could not be ascertained" was checked, and no others, that this was the only reason that the application was declined. That is hardly likely.
esctatic    
22 Aug 2015  #16
Merged: poland study visa refusal

quick question
if you apply for a student visa and god forbid it gets refused do they stamp refusal stamp on the passport? if so, where exactly do they stamp? on the back pages

is it a big stamp or a small one?
just out of curiousity
Polsyr 6 | 771    
26 Aug 2015  #17
They don't stamp the passport anymore - as far as I know. The information is saved in a central computerized system these days. All countries in the Schengen zone have access to this data. Non-disclosure of a visa application refusal on future applications is a sure way to another refusal and possible red flag in the system for the purpose of denial of entry, lasting up to several years.
Mike00 1 | 29    
26 Aug 2015  #18
I don't get it. If a person has been admitted into a Polish University and he/she meets all the requirements, why would they reject the visa? It's not like you're going to the USA
InPolska 11 | 1,821    
26 Aug 2015  #19
@Mike: maybe YOU doN'T get it but the Polish authorities do and that is what matters ;). If the authorities suspect that applicant may likely overstay their visa they don't issue visa. If the applicant comes from a sh]]]t country, it's obvious that they won't go back home after studying but will stay in Poland or more likely move West and be illegal aliens.
Mike00 1 | 29    
26 Aug 2015  #20
Hmm that's a good point but if they think like that, half of the Polish Universities will get empty my friend ;) Btw foreign students bring a lot to the country. They spend so much money, more than what locals spend
delphiandomine 85 | 17,629    
27 Aug 2015  #21
No, they really don't. If they need a visa to enter Poland, they're not likely to spend much and will instead try and work to earn money.

It's especially true with people that attend private universities. (which, by the way, aren't universities, but "higher schools".)
Mike00 1 | 29    
27 Aug 2015  #22
But aren't private universities more expensive?
DominicB - | 2,645    
27 Aug 2015  #23
The point is that the are comically easy to get into, regardless of academic record, and basically take all comers. The cost is of little relevance to "students" who just want to enter the country, and then abscond to greener pastures in Western Europe. Apparently, a lot of these schools do rather aggressive self-promotion and recruiting in Africa and Asia, counting that they will at least be able to pocket the down-payment and not have to worry about providing any actual services. They apparently tell prospective students that finding part-time work is easy in Poland to lure them in.

As delphiandomine said above, these schools are not real universities, and are forbidden to call themselves universities in Polish. It appears that there is a loophole in the law that allows them to call themselves universities in English. With precious few exceptions, the quality of education at these schools is abysmal and any "degrees" they confer are worthless.
Mike00 1 | 29    
27 Aug 2015  #24
I wonder students who are already studying in such "Universities or schools", what would they do in the future if these schools are so pathetic
delphiandomine 85 | 17,629    
27 Aug 2015  #25
Wash dishes, for instance. Sometimes they get promoted to being allowed to clean other kitchen stations. If they're really lucky, they might be allowed to wash a few vegetables.

But aren't private universities more expensive?

It doesn't work like that in Poland. Private universities are not universities, they are "higher schools". They do not have the right to use the name "uniwersytet" in their name. Fees are irrelevant - the country pays for EU citizens to study for free at public universities.

The point is that the are comically easy to get into, regardless of academic record, and basically take all comers.

Have you ever heard of someone refused admission from a private "university" if their documents were in order? I haven't.

They apparently tell prospective students that finding part-time work is easy in Poland to lure them in.

Not only that, but some of them use agents which openly lie about things. For instance, I've heard of one school in PoznaƄ where the local agent was telling Indians that they could work full time during the course.

With precious few exceptions, the quality of education at these schools is abysmal and any "degrees" they confer are worthless.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

There are some exceptions, but you won't find those exceptions at the "West Pomeranian Business School".
Mike00 1 | 29    
27 Aug 2015  #26
Thanks for all the information. To be honest I had no idea and now I do have a tiny little problem which is that I have already paid the damn fee ughhhh

So my future is washing dishes?
delphiandomine 85 | 17,629    
27 Aug 2015  #27
Exactly.

On the bright side, those dishes will be in the USA, so it's not so bad. I was reading only today about a restaurant owner that pays his dishwashers around $8 an hour.
Mike00 1 | 29    
27 Aug 2015  #28
Thanks for the heads up pal! I don't understand why are these schools even open then. Not everyone has so much information about a particular school or college.
InPolska 11 | 1,821    
27 Aug 2015  #29
@Mike: all these Mickey Mouse schools want is students' money so they accept anyone. Easy to understand!
Mike00 1 | 29    
27 Aug 2015  #30
I said why are these schools even open if they are selling their degrees to foreign students


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