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Can't get a social security number/PESEL in Poland (I'm from UK)


InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
19 Nov 2012 #1
Am from the UK. I've been told I can't buy a car and register and insure it unless I have a PESEL. Assuming this is true, I need a PESEL.

Been to the city hall, they gave me a form called a " Zgloszenie pobytu czasowego trwajaccfego ponad 3 miesiace ". At the very top, it asks for a PESEL number!

Didn't notice that until just now.

Other problem I have is this: can't get the landlord to provide the docs proving he owns it and his ID card number etc. Reason is my landlord has sadly died and bitter battle going between the siblings on who owns what, so there's no official owner now and I have no docs to take to the city office to prove where I live and register the address and get my PESEL. Apparently a tenancy agreement is not sufficient, they want the apartment's title deeds (ownership document). Is that so? I didn't know they needed that. They also want the owner's ID number (sadly they are now dead and the owner is the estate until the heirs are sorted out).

Any ideas, anyone? I don't know what my next step should be. Looks like I am utterly stuffed unless I move to a new flat, which I am trying to do but so far not found anything. Even then, would the next landlord co-operate so that I can get my PESEL? Maybe, maybe not.

PS I already have the Zaswiadczenie o Zarejestrowaniu Pobytu Obywatela EU. No Pesel nr on it as far as I can see.
berni23 7 | 379
19 Nov 2012 #2
pesel.felis-net.com ;)
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
19 Nov 2012 #3
berni23

Sorted then! :D

Thanks for that!

But seriously folks, much as I appreciate the chuckle, I don't know what to do. I also missed an employment role a month ago because of it - they cancelled my interview when they discovered I don't have a PESEL. Not all employers can be bothered to get an employee a PESEL, unless that employee has very specialist skills which I don't.
Harry
19 Nov 2012 #4
Apparently a tenancy agreement is not sufficient, they want the apartment's title deeds (ownership document). Is that so? I didn't know they needed that.

They do need that. I once went there to get an maldunek. The office jockeys wouldn't let me give myself permission to live in the flat which I own because, even though they knew that I own the flat (because the local property tax bills are sent to me), I hadn't brought the notarial deed proving that I had bought the flat legally.

Any ideas, anyone? I don't know what my next step should be. Looks like I am utterly stuffed unless I move to a new flat, which I am trying to do but so far not found anything. Even then, would the next landlord co-operate so that I can get my PESEL?

Either:
a) don't buy a car;
b) re-register your car every three months;
c) move to a new flat (making sure you can get a maldunek there); or
d) find somebody who will let you register at their flat for a maldunek.

A looks like the winner to me.
berni23 7 | 379
19 Nov 2012 #5
I was only partly joking, i used this to make several transactions in Poland, including opening a bank account.
The consultant i met later was very understanding in me being a foreigner and this stupid PESEL system.

I wouldnt use it when dealing with officials though.
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
19 Nov 2012 #6
Either:a) don't buy a car;b) re-register your car every three months;c) move to a new flat (making sure you can get a maldunek there); ord) find somebody who will let you register at their flat for a maldunek.A looks like the winner to me.

Thanks Harry.

I don't like driving in Poland but a change in circumstances means I will have to overcome that phobia.

Car re-registering would be complex and/or costly?

Not sure how I'd get a landlord to definitely register me, they say one thing and do another after I pay them the deposit and rent.

I don't know anyone who would allow me to register at their place, not for free anyway.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
20 Nov 2012 #7
From what I hear from friends (I own my flat so have no experience with renting), to find a place to rent with a meldunek is hard, and costs considerably more as a "normal" one. (without meldunek) This has something to do with taxes - i.e. when your landlord gives you a meldunek he has to register the renting of the flat with the authorities and pay taxes on that income. Poles of course can stay registered in their hometown, with their parents etc...

For us foreigners this is more tricky...
But that said and done, PESEL and NIP are the basics of everyday life in Poland.
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
20 Nov 2012 #8
That's what I suspected!

If I got an acquaintance or friend here to say I live there free on a temporary basis and register there for my PESEL, I wonder if the authorities will assume that I am paying them rent and hassle them? I don't like putting people in a position where they have to decline, so I have not asked anybody as yet. If they refuse, the tax thing would be the reason.
Richfilth 6 | 415
20 Nov 2012 #9
If you register yourself in someone else's flat you have to provide some sort of rental agreement. In my case, my girlfriend rents a room for a token sum a month, and I have to pay the tax on that to Urzad Skarbowy every month (17zl). But that way she's able to have her own company registered at the address, deduct flat bills from the company as an expense, and so on and so forth.

There really isn't a workaround for it, and it took me two years and two cars sent to the scrapyard before I was able to register my wheels legally. And despite Tusk's promises, it hasn't got any easier recently.
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
20 Nov 2012 #10
If you register yourself in someone else's flat you have to provide some sort of rental agreement.

Thanks RF

I thought as much, so basically I am stuffed then really, I can't ask anyone I know here in Wrocław because that puts them in an awkward position as they'd have to say no.

Maybe it's just me who thinks this, but seems quite cynical of the authorities to assume that any address a foreigner gives must be an address where they are paying rent to the owner and so inform the tax office of it and cause the well-meaning friend a load of grief.

Much appreciate the post from yourself and others -- it does look like I am currently stuffed PESEL-wise but at least I know more about my options (or lack thereof) now.
Richfilth 6 | 415
20 Nov 2012 #11
It's not cynicism; it's some very weird wording of the law which means it's somehow illegal to ALLOW non-family people to live in your house rent-free. As the owner, I'm the only one who's allowed to register people in my property, and I have to provide an explanation of why they're there; hence the rental agreement.

Even as the owner (as Harry pointed out) I can only register myself for 5 years because I don't have a dowod osobisty, even though I do have a PESEL.

Maybe there's some sort of agency that registers you at their address for a small fee?
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
20 Nov 2012 #12
It's not cynicism; it's some very weird wording of the law which means it's somehow illegal to ALLOW non-family people to live in your house rent-free. As the owner, I'm the only one who's allowed to register people in my property, and I have to provide an explanation of why they're there; hence the rental agreement.

Thanks for taking the time to post and explain it, much appreciated.
(No, I don't know of any agency or accommodation address services here, btw, and probably the city council would somehow know and blacklist those addresses.)
berni23 7 | 379
20 Nov 2012 #13
I know its no help to you, but at least they acknowledged that proof of residence(for foreigners) is nonsense:

From 1 January 2013, changes to the scope of data collected in the registry Social Security of Poland - assumes signed by President novella of the Law on the population register . This law also assumes that from 2014 . Obligation of registration will be abolished .

According to the story from 2013 . Changes to the scope of data collected in the registry Social Security : no longer in the information on the address , country of residence , and data entry into the Polish and travel outside the borders of our country.

Register of Social Security will remain the primary tool for civil registration system ; records will be disposed of inhabitants and registers of residence of foreigners.


From 2014 on you wont have these problems anymore.

Meanwhile i would consult a lawyer - mine said its possible to get a PESEL at the Polish embassy, youd have to have a residence in your own country though.

Maybe there's some sort of agency that registers you at their address for a small fee?

= lawyer ;)
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
20 Nov 2012 #14
Meanwhile i would consult a lawyer - mine said its possible to get a PESEL at the Polish embassy, youd have to have a residence in your own country though.

I was interested to learn of that, Berni. Thanks for posting.

I do have a residence in the UK, but I don't think I want to fly back to London and the Polish embassy to get a PESEL unless I really have to ! :o) Handy to know, though, thanks!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Nov 2012 #15
mine said its possible to get a PESEL at the Polish embassy

Only if you are a Polish citizen.
Harry
20 Nov 2012 #16
I've been told I can't buy a car and register and insure it unless I have a PESEL. Assuming this is true, I need a PESEL.

As far as I know (from personal experience and from the experiences of others, the most recent of which was the week before last) you do not need a PESEL number in order to register a car in Poland. What you need is a maldunek (a registered address) and your registration can only be valid for as long as your maldunek is valid for. This means that you need a Residency Registration Certificate (those are good for five years) if you want to register the car for more than three months (as a maldunek can only be valid for three months unless you have a Residency Registration Certificate). But to get your Residency Registration Certificate, you first have to have a three-month maldunek. You use your three-month maldunek to get your Residency Registration Certificate, then you use your Residency Registration Certificate to get a five-year maldunek and then you use your five-year maldunek to register your car for five years. After five years you get to repeat the whole thing all over again.

If you register yourself in someone else's flat you have to provide some sort of rental agreement. In my case, my girlfriend rents a room for a token sum a month, and I have to pay the tax on that to Urzad Skarbowy every month (17zl).

You need to be careful with that. You are clearly renting that room at significantly below the market rate for a room in Warsaw (I'd say it has got to be at least 500zl) and the tax office are perfectly entitled to assess the tax based on what they think you should be paying (and nail you for back tax too). The way to get round it (again I'm speaking from personal experience here) is to register your girlfriend as your 'konkubina'. Yes it does work.

BTW, if at all possible, it is far better to not get a PESEL number if one intends to drive in Poland. Under the Polish system, points for traffic offences are stored under your PESEL number, not under your driving licence number: no PESEL = no points.
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
20 Nov 2012 #17
Harry, I appreciate your post and don't want to be obtuse, but I don't quite understand.

I have the blue card, the Zaswiadczenie o Zarejestrowaniu Pobytu Obywatela EU. What is that if not a residency registration card? I thought it was.

Also, the temp stay over 3 months form they gave me (Zgloszenie pobytu czasowego trwajaccfego ponad 3 miesiace) asks for a PESEL at the top!

I don't understand now as to what I already have (the blue card) and what I need to get to register the car or get a PESEL.

Incidentally, the little slip of paper (like a UK bank paying in slip stub) which is the registration of insurance I think does have a PESEL on it - my friend has one. From memory, the slip says PZU SA Inspektorat on it with some stamp and an amount of money paid and an expiry date along with the car registration plate and VIN. If I get my own car, and if I don't have a PESEL, will they issue that slip to me?

If I register my own car for 3 months at a time, does anyone know what that costs me each time?
Harry
20 Nov 2012 #18
I have the blue card, the Zaswiadczenie o Zarejestrowaniu Pobytu Obywatela EU. What is that if not a residency registration card? I thought it was.

That blue card (the Residency Registration Certificate / Zaswiadczenie o Zarejestrowaniu Pobytu Obywatela EU) is all you need. Yes the form for the longer maldunek asks for a PESEL but you can just explain that as a foreigner you do not have one (the form asks for one because it was designed for Poles): I have never (in 17 years) been told that I can't have a maldunek because I have no PESEL number, the staff at the gmina offices have always accepted the form without a PESEL number.

If I register my own car for 3 months at a time, does anyone know what that costs me each time?

It's not the money: it's the time and the hassle.
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
20 Nov 2012 #19
OK Harry, thanks again.

So if I've got this right: I do have the Res Reg Cert, but they didn't issue me with a PESEL because I didn't have a registered address. The form the city council gave me is currently unusable because I now can't register the address where I am due to the flat owner having sadly passed away and there are no documents available to satisfy the city council that I am where I am. The good news is I can use that blue card Res Reg Cert to register a car or buy insurance for a car I buy, I assume.

Harry, you are writing it all clearly, it's just that I find all their system quite confusing. But, I'm going to try to get a car and register it using my blue card and I think I'm right in saying that they insure me at the same time as I pay to register it. I could be wrong of course! :o) As I said earlier, my friend's car has a little slip which is supposed to be the insurance (and I assume the registration which is something to do with the silver foil hologram duty paid sticker in the car window) and that bit of paper has their name and their PESEL on it along with dates and other entries.

Having said all that very confidently above, I would not be at all surprised if I am sent away from the car reg office and told to get a PESEL and some other residency or similar document!!

:D
sobieski 107 | 2,128
20 Nov 2012 #20
Even as the owner (as Harry pointed out) I can only register myself for 5 years because I don't have a dowod osobisty, even though I do have a PESEL.

I own a flat, and have a meldunek na stale and karta pobytu na stałe and a PESEL since I arrived in Poland 9 years ago.

First time I hear about this 5-year rule? What is this about?

Another reason why landlords are not very keen (apart from the tax issue) to give a meldunek, is that afterwards it is very hard to kick that person out until his/her meldunek expires.
Harry
20 Nov 2012 #21
First time I hear about this 5-year rule? What is this about?

You have permanent residence, so it doesn't apply to you.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Nov 2012 #22
First time I hear about this 5-year rule? What is this about?

EU citizens get an automatic five years right to stay, and after that expires, they can either apply for the karta stałego pobytu or go back and re-register for another five years.

Harry - as an aside - I have some information (as Poles say) about the EU residence certificate - I have it on fairly good authority that you *can* get a proper plastic card if you get them to agree. I'm going tomorrow to plead my case - I'll let you know about the result...

I have never (in 17 years) been told that I can't have a maldunek because I have no PESEL number, the staff at the gmina offices have always accepted the form without a PESEL number.

At least here, the practice is to issue the PESEL once you have the five year meldunek - you need to specifically ask them for it, however.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
20 Nov 2012 #23
I have it on fairly good authority that you *can* get a proper plastic card

Do you mean, that it replaces the joke that the karta stałego pobytu at the moment is?
Meaning a salmon-colored piece of paper which is meant to last for 10 years...
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Nov 2012 #24
That as well - I've definitely seen two cards with my own eyes issued to EU citizens rather than the paper - you need to ask them for it, and they can be stubborn about it - but it's definitely possible to get one.

I'd give them a call and ask - make up some reason (such as needing it to get a loan, or some such nonsense) and see what they say.

The pieces of paper are totally useless - barely anyone understands what they are!
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
20 Nov 2012 #25
At least here, the practice is to issue the PESEL once you have the five year meldunek - you need to specifically ask them for it, however.

I have heard that too.

it is very hard to kick that person out until his/her meldunek expires.

So what can I do with my sans PESEL blue card apart from stickin' it where the sun don't shine? Register a car? What? They've told me I can't have a PESEL unless I register an address and I can't register an address for the reasons mentioned above. And how do I get that plastic card you mention rather than this blue one which I've had for a while now and it looks like something done on a photocopier.

The pieces of paper are totally useless - barely anyone understands what they are!

You can say that again.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Nov 2012 #26
How did you get the residency certificate in the first place without a valid address to register at?

And how do I get that plastic card you mention rather than this blue one which I've had for a while now and it looks like something done on a photocopier.

The local Foreigners Office, but you'll need a registered address for it. No harm in asking, anyway.
Harry
20 Nov 2012 #27
EU citizens get an automatic five years right to stay, and after that expires, they can either apply for the karta stałego pobytu or go back and re-register for another five years.

Or they can just make sure they leave Poland every 90 days.

Harry - as an aside - I have some information (as Poles say) about the EU residence certificate - I have it on fairly good authority that you *can* get a proper plastic card if you get them to agree. I'm going tomorrow to plead my case - I'll let you know about the result...

Now that would be something I'd like to have. I'd even bother to get an EU residence certificate if it came with some kind of ID card. I am somewhat toying with the idea of getting one of the current blue things just so I have Polish state-issued paperwork which doesn't have a photo on it to give any police officer who says that my UK state-issued driving licence isn't acceptable because it has no photo on it but from memory the EU residence certificate specifically says on it that it isn't valid unless accompanied by a passport.

At least here, the practice is to issue the PESEL once you have the five year meldunek - you need to specifically ask them for it, however.

But why would I want a PESEL?!
OP InWroclaw 89 | 1,914
20 Nov 2012 #28
How did you get the residency certificate in the first place without a valid address to register at?

Loads of documents taken there some time ago, several trips there in fact when they asked for additional things, lots of waiting around, coming back months later after I heard nothing and picking it up.

As far as I know, I have never registered an address with them. When I asked them this very same question they seemed to suggest there was nothing unusual about me having the blue card before registering an address (of course when I applied for the card I thought I was also registering my address!) and then getting a PESEL. Very nice pleasant people but I don't really know what to do because occasionally there is talk of a job for me but without the PESEL there's no chance and apparently it might be needed for the car reg/insurance too - although Harry says I don't need it and he may be right of course but who knows... sigh

Can I ask you again, what can I do with my PESELess blue card apart from doodle on it? Register a car? Er and what else? They've told me I can't have a PESEL unless I register an address and I can't register an address for the reasons mentioned above. And how do I get that plastic card you mention rather than this blue one which I've had for a while now and looks like something done on a photocopier in the 1970s.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
20 Nov 2012 #29
Or they can just make sure they leave Poland every 90 days.

Apparently the most ridiculous thing about the requirement to register is that there's no punishment in law for not registering!

Now that would be something I'd like to have.

I'll check mine when I'm at the other place, but I don't think mine says it? My piece of paper isn't even blue though - more like green!

I'll let you know if I have any luck with trying to blag a card - it really would make things much easier to actually have one.

But why would I want a PESEL?!

To not have to deal with the tedious explaining that "no, I don't have one"? ;)
jon357 71 | 21,105
20 Nov 2012 #30
Apparently the most ridiculous thing about the requirement to register is that there's no punishment in law for not registering!

They can't do anything at all - freedom of movement is guaranteed within the EU. And in any case, there are rarely any checks at land borders so unless there's a paper trail they have no way of knowing your date of entry.


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