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Ease of doing business in Poland


cms 9 | 1,272
6 Nov 2010  #1
I see Poland again performed very badly in terms of ease of doing business in the survey. Still stuck at about number 70. Worst was time to get a building permit - Poland 155 in the world, which is familiar to anyone who has tried to invest in production here - result is always the same, workers hired and costs incurred before you have somewhere for them to work !

So I accept that things are not getting worse but why aren't they getting better ? The PO govt has had 3 years now, two of which saw huge swings in the zloty and I honestly reckon PiS got more done for business than they did. They now have the Presidency too so cannot use that excuse. I can not think of one concrete improvement to my life in terms of lower bureaucracy in past year and I can off the top of my head think of three things that are making it worse - smoking law, chaotic introduction of the VAT increase and some new exchange reporting.
THE HITMAN - | 236
6 Nov 2010  #2
It,s interesting to see few or swift replies to your post, but not surprising in the least. When a poster has a negative remark, the die hard patriots seem to crawl back into the woodwork.

I for one though, tend to agree with you. You are absolutely correct in your assumptions. Trying to start a business, has and still is an uphill battle. Established companies are monopolistic and have closed doors, where new ventures are met with mistrust and discrimination. I can go on ......... but whats the point.
zetigrek
6 Nov 2010  #3
Trying to start a business, has and still is an uphill battle

My dad was running business for 15 years and he says it bollox that it's hard to start off a business in Poland.
THE HITMAN - | 236
6 Nov 2010  #4
"was" or "still is" ?

Is your dad a Polish citizen ?
zetigrek
6 Nov 2010  #5
"was" or "still is" ?

was. He was running business untill 2006.

Is your dad a Polish citizen ?

yes.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
6 Nov 2010  #6
My dad was running business for 15 years and he says it bollox that it's hard to start off a business in Poland.

It depends what you want to do really - some professions are very very easy to deal with, but others are more complicated. For instance - my business is incredibly easy to run, but property seems to be a complete pain in the ass. It also depends where you're from - EU citizens mostly have it easy, but non-EU citizens have a difficult time of it.

I think in general, Poland is well set up for small businessmen, but not so much for those wanting to produce something (unless they can afford expensive lawyers to deal with it).

I'm not so sure that Poland even wants small scale production though.
THE HITMAN - | 236
6 Nov 2010  #7
yes.

Well, that explains it. Look at things from a foreigners perspective. The very first hurdle, is possessing a " pesel ", we don,t have one. I think Poland is the only country that has. Trying to obtain anything without a pesel is ludicrous.

eg. I purchased a sat tv system no problem, but when I wanted to get connected the company insisted on me having a pesel ( that,s bollox, my friend ). You can sell a product that is rendered useless, unless you have a " pesel "........ what a farce !
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
6 Nov 2010  #8
It's a national identity number, easily obtainable when you legalise your residence in Poland in accordance with EU law. Poland isn't the only country that has this - try doing anything in France without valid residency ;) The UK has a PESEL too - never wondered what a "national insurance" number is?

And yes, the company was quite right to insist on you having it - without it, you're unlikely to be legally resident in Poland - and without legal residency, why should they supply you with services?

As for obtaining a PESEL - it's not a "hurdle", it's actually quite easy. I have one, didn't take any effort, just a few forms. Nothing unusual, difficult or strange.

I think most of the problems foreigners have in Poland is simply through their own refusal to follow the system in place here. Likewise in the UK - Poles had problems with obtaining benefits that they'd paid for, because they didn't bother to register under the WRS. As I said - problems of their own making.

The problem that many EU citizens have here is that no-one cares if they're here or not, but if they want to live as a Polish citizen, then they must complete the formalities. Non-EU citizens don't have a choice - they have to legalise themselves, but EU citizens don't have to because no-one cares if they do or not. But when they don't, they then discover that they don't have the essential documents that everyone else has.

I've got all sorts of different contracts with schools - and when I present them with a copy of my passport, my residence permit and my business registration, life is very easy indeed.
THE HITMAN - | 236
6 Nov 2010  #9
You don,t have to be a resident to invest in a foreign business or to start a company. There are over 40,000 registered Polish companies in the UK.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
6 Nov 2010  #10
Sure, you don't have to be. But EU law says that you should register for residency if you're here for more than 3 months - the UK and Ireland are the exceptions to this system, because they don't care about EU nationals.

As for those Polish companies in the UK - more fool the UK for allowing people to abuse the UK system when they're not legally resident there.
THE HITMAN - | 236
6 Nov 2010  #11
And yes, the company was quite right to insist on you having it - without it, you're unlikely to be legally resident in Poland - and without legal residency, why should they supply you with services?

When you subscribe to " sky " in the UK, they don,t ask you for your national insurance number. Like I said " farce ".

But EU law says that you should register for residency

It,s a free europe, so you can chose where you wish to reside.( permanent )

As for those Polish companies in the UK - more fool the UK for allowing people to abuse the UK system when they're not legally resident there.

You don,t have to reside there, it,s a free Europe and the UK is allowing EU members to express their rights. What aid does Poland give to other EU members when they wish to start a business or even reside in the country ?
convex 20 | 3,978
6 Nov 2010  #12
It,s a free europe, so you can chose where you wish to reside.( permanent )

Still have to register, that's local law in most countries. Poles have to register themselves, Germans, French, Italians...

What aid does Poland give to other EU members when they wish to start a business or even reside in the country ?

Quite a bit depending on where you want to open your business, and more importantly, how much you're investing.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
6 Nov 2010  #13
When you subscribe to " sky " in the UK, they don,t ask you for your national insurance number. Like I said " farce ".

No, but they ask for your bank account details and won't give you any service if you aren't listed on the credit databases. Poland doesn't bother with credit databases, but instead asks for a PESEL. So - it's about the same.

It,s a free europe, so you can chose where you wish to reside.( permanent )

Subject to EU law, which requires you to register locally after 3 months residence. It's in the EU treaties, and the same law was used to expel the Roma from France. It's rarely used, but anyone not registered as resident can be deported after the 3 month period quite legally.

Anyway, how can you expect companies to provide you with a service if you aren't legally resident there?

You don,t have to reside there, it,s a free Europe and the UK is allowing EU members to express their rights. What aid does Poland give to other EU members when they wish to start a business or even reside in the country ?

You do have to reside there in order to be self-employed. In regards to limited companies - of course not, but owning a limited company doesn't give you any automatic rights to residence anyway.

As for Poland helping EU members - they make it rather easy and painfree. The information desk in my local Urzad Miasta is very helpful - they made it a breeze to start the company. As for residing here, again, the local Foreigners Office makes it easy.

Compare this to the UK, where everything must be done by post and telephone. Thanks, but I'd rather speak to a real person!
THE HITMAN - | 236
6 Nov 2010  #14
So - it's about the same.

I don,t think so.

of course not, but owning a limited company doesn't give you any automatic rights to residence anyway.

Who wants it anyway ?

Thanks, but I'd rather speak to a real person!

Obviously you have more time than me, I,m rather too busy, so the net, phone and postal service suit me fine and is more advantageous to business.

Anyway, how can you expect companies to provide you with a service if you aren't legally resident there?

So you,re telling me I can,t hire a car in Poland because I am not a resident.

I have business in two other European countries and in three different continents and services are provided regardless of where I reside. So why is Poland different ?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
6 Nov 2010  #15
I don,t think so.

You need a PESEL in Poland - in the UK, you need to be registered on the electoral roll and have a bank account - and to get a bank account, you normally need an NI number and proof of your residency through bills. It's about the same amount of hassle, all things considered.

Obviously you have more time than me, I,m rather too busy, so the net, phone and postal service suit me fine and is more advantageous to business.

Sitting on the phone for an hour, dealing with people who are trained to read from scripts and not having any personal access to people who understand real problems is advantageous? Since when?

So why is Poland different ?

It isn't. It's only different because you don't understand how it works here - you're assuming that it works like it does in the UK for a native citizen. The European way of doing things is different, even down to the way that the UK doesn't care less about "residency" except for tax purposes, whereas Europeans take it far more seriously.

And as I said - why should you expect to get any services if you haven't got legal residency? Try getting anything in the UK without being listed on the credit databases - it's impossible. Even getting a post-paid supply of electricity is nearly impossible.

Anyway, it's hardly difficult to get a PESEL.
poland_
6 Nov 2010  #16
You don,t have to reside there, it,s a free Europe and the UK is allowing EU members to express their rights

When you enter and exit the UK they swipe your passport, so they know when your in and when your out. The shengen area is different ,you could be anywhere. So it is easier for the UK tax authorities to know who is in and who is out.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
6 Nov 2010  #17
They should when you enter/leave the Schengen zone, but implementation seems to be really spotty at times, especially when coming from the UK. But - the last few times I've entered from Ukraine, they've been checking thoroughly.
landora - | 199
6 Nov 2010  #18
and to get a bank account, you normally need an NI number and proof of your residency through bills. It's about the same amount of hassle, all things considered.

Well, try to get a bank account without having a NI number or any bills (eg. being an exchange student living in halls). Nearly impossible!

It took me 3 visits to the bank in the UK and two letters from the college to convince them that yes, I live here and no, I don't have any bills, BECAUSE I LIVE IN HALLS!! The proof of payment for my room in the halls for the whole semester was not enough, my Polish ID was treated with greatest suspicion (where is your DL? - I don't have one! - :O).

Speaking of Polish ID - one shop refused to sell cigarettes to my friend on the basis of her ID. It's good enough to cross borders with, but not good enough to by booze or fags in the UK!
THE HITMAN - | 236
6 Nov 2010  #19
Sitting on the phone for an hour, dealing with people who are trained to read from scripts and not having any personal access to people who understand real problems is advantageous? Since when?

You,re talking about call centres, I think you,re on a different wavelength.

Try getting anything in the UK without being listed on the credit databases - it's impossible. Even getting a post-paid supply of electricity is nearly impossible.

How do all the immigrants get things almost straight-away when coming to the UK then ?
What residentual history do they have ?
What credit rating ?
What input have they provided ?
I don,t hear the 2million + Poles in the UK complaining.

Where,s your answer to ...............

delphiandomine:
Anyway, how can you expect companies to provide you with a service if you aren't legally resident there?

So you,re telling me I can,t hire a car in Poland because I am not a resident.

I have business in two other European countries and in three different continents and services are provided regardless of where I reside. So why is Poland different ?

The very first hurdle, is possessing a " pesel ", we don,t have one.

I can go on ......... but whats the point.

Like I said " first hurdle ", I don,t want to go on about the rest.... NIP, Regon, registry etc. it,s tedious and not as simple as you make out. especially with the constant bureaucratic changes.

(eg. being an exchange student living in halls).

I think the thread is about business, not students problems opening bank accounts.
landora - | 199
6 Nov 2010  #20
I think the thread is about business, not students problems opening bank accounts.

And I think the thread is about foreign people struggling with the system in different countries.

Anyway, my foreign fiancé didn't have any problems opening a bank account and starting a business in Poland. He also has a PESEL by now. Not a problem.

NIP, Regon, registry etc. it,s tedious and not as simple as you make out. especially with the constant bureaucratic changes.

REGON is sent to you, NIP is given or upgraded automatically after you register your business. The starting up of a business requires 2 visits in the office: to register and then, a week later, to pick up the papers. Yes, so tedious and difficult.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
6 Nov 2010  #21
You,re talking about call centres, I think you,re on a different wavelength.

I'm talking about the HMRC monkey lines. Getting them to actually do what you want is like getting blood from a stone.

How do all the immigrants get things almost straight-away when coming to the UK then ?
What residentual history do they have ?
What credit rating ?
What input have they provided ?
I don,t hear the 2million + Poles in the UK complaining.

They don't get things straight away, that's the thing. They have no history, no credit rating and really can't get anything straight away. The reason they don't complain is because the vast majority are only there to earn money - they don't care about getting a mortgage, a loan or premium banking products. They can get pre-paid meters, or share a flat with people.

Like I said " first hurdle ", I don,t want to go on about the rest.... NIP, Regon, registry etc. it,s tedious and not as simple as you make out. especially with the constant bureaucratic changes.

It's not tedious at all, unless you count filling in a few forms and visiting a couple of offices as "tedious". Given that for EU citizens, the process is the same as Polish citizens, then it's really not difficult. The only difficulty is when you try and do things your way as opposed to the Polish way - and in which case, can you blame them for not liking it?

Just try and do things differently in France and tell me how far you get.

The problem is that you seem to be comparing doing business in the UK as a native citizen with doing business in another country as a foreigner where you don't speak the language. The two aren't comparable at all. But for what it's worth - what other EU country, except Ireland, makes it so easy for foreigners?

Bear in mind that in the UK, to apply for a NI number, you need to attend an interview with someone at the Jobcentre who has the power to refuse you. Not so in Poland.

I think the thread is about business, not students problems opening bank accounts.

It's every bit as relevant. Students are the backbone of every country - and if they can't open a simple bank account, what hope is there?

Frankly, if you're such a businessman, I'm surprised that you've been defeated by a few simple forms that a baby could fill out.
THE HITMAN - | 236
6 Nov 2010  #22
Frankly, if you're such a businessman, I'm surprised that you've been defeated by a few simple forms that a baby could fill out.

Now, now. Whose getting childish. I haven,t been defeated at all. I currently run a business in PL, but I,m just trying to be honest and tell it as it is. Whether I,m a good businessman or not is irrelevant. Obviously we have a conflict of opinions, which is fair enough, it,s something I can accept. So if you want to get the last word in, carry on, I,m off for now.

Cheers, all the best to you.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
6 Nov 2010  #23
I currently run a business in PL, but I,m just trying to be honest and tell it as it is.

Well, why not criticise the more stupid aspects of Polish law?

You could start by ridiculing the need to "register" what your business does - the PKD codes.

For what it's worth - did you register as self employed, or a limited company? The bureaucracy involved with limited companies is absolutely ridiculous - the UK is streets...no, miles ahead!
convex 20 | 3,978
6 Nov 2010  #24
You could start by ridiculing the need to "register" what your business does - the PKD codes.

Most countries require that. It actually makes sense. Allows auditors to be more targeted when looking for pasterns.

The worst part of running a business here are the costs of employing labor when selling services to domestic market.
THE HITMAN - | 236
6 Nov 2010  #25
Well, why not criticise the more stupid aspects of Polish law?

* Shakes head *

That could take a long long time. lol

* Leaves room *
OP cms 9 | 1,272
6 Nov 2010  #26
Working through all the company formation and Pesel and NIP stuff is not that difficult but it has two huge drawbacks

- you have to do it often in person and have it notarized, you can't just send your secretary there.
-you have to do everything in order, which wastes time. i.e. its difficult to get started on building permits without a company, its difficult to start a company without a registered office, its difficult to rent an office without a PESEL.

As I said not that difficult but most countries get by without this nonsense. It seems geared to keeping older people in employment (and yes I realize without employment there is nobody with cash to buy your products !)
convex 20 | 3,978
6 Nov 2010  #27
- you have to do it often in person and have it notarized, you can't just send your secretary there.

Provide your lawyer (or whoever) with a POA. No need to show up in person.

-you have to do everything in order, which wastes time. i.e. its difficult to get started on building permits without a company, its difficult to start a company without a registered office, its difficult to rent an office without a PESEL.

If that's your problem, buy a shelf company. Buy one from your lawyer, they probably already have a couple ready to go. You can being trading with it nearly immediately.
OP cms 9 | 1,272
7 Nov 2010  #28
Nonsense. I've bought a shelf company before here and "nearly immediately" was 3 weeks.

Yes, you can give a PoA to start a company but I'm pretty sure it has to be a notarized PoA !
jonni 16 | 2,485
7 Nov 2010  #29
I'm pretty sure it has to be a notarized PoA !

It should be, but doesn't have to be. Just an oswiadczenie o pelnomocnictwie is ok - though some office monkeys won't accept it.
convex 20 | 3,978
7 Nov 2010  #30
Nonsense. I've bought a shelf company before here and "nearly immediately" was 3 weeks.

Then your lawyer is incompetent. Transferring a company consists of sales of the shares, and a board meeting to assign new officers. Your lawyer is the board, and they'll be drafting up the paperwork for the transfer of the shares.

Yes, you can give a PoA to start a company but I'm pretty sure it has to be a notarized PoA !

Yes, it has to be notarized. What's the problem?


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