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Citizenship of Poland can be obtained through the blood line but my ancestor could lose it in the past


Davey Activity: 13 / 389
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25 Sep 2012  #1

Hi,
I recently discovered Polish citizenship can be obtained through the blood line. I know many documents are needed as proof. I am aware that the Polish citizenship act of 1920 states that one loses Polish citizenship by obtaining citizenship of another country UNLESS the Polish citizen was in the age range of 18-50 and they did not gain permission from the Polish government to obtain foreign citizenship and this is my issue. Is there any sort of records of those who were granted permission? My ancestor came to Canada in 1930 and was 24 years old, the only question on my mind about whether he lost his Polish citizenship is whether or not he was granted permission from the Polish government, but how does one obtain such a record?

Thanks,
Davey

Also.....more details if you were wondering....he was 24 and came here in 1930 from Stryszawa(Bielsko Biala), had my grandfather in 1935 in Canada and married a French woman, my mom was born in 1960. Uczę się języka polskiego od wielu lat i wiem że trudno będzie mi otrzymać polskie obywaltelstwo bo moj PRAdziadek był Polakiem ale może jeśli moja matka będzie otrzymała polskie obywaltelstwo będzie mi latwiej?

delphiandomine Activity: 56 / 15,078
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #2

My ancestor came to Canada in 1930 and was 24 years old, the only question on my mind about whether he lost his Polish citizenship is whether or not he was granted permission from the Polish government

Actually, he could regain it - should he still be alive.

As for permission - if you have no record of it, then it's unlikely that the Polish powers that be can help.
OP Davey Activity: 13 / 389
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #3

He is dead unfortunately, but it is doubtful that he would have written to Poland to renounce it when that was unnecessary to gain Canadian citizenship, would that be a big issue in proving his citizenship?
delphiandomine Activity: 56 / 15,078
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25 Sep 2012  #4

It's not a matter of informing Poland - he renounced it automatically upon obtaining Canadian citizenship.
Harry Activity: 67 / 12,888
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #5

the only question on my mind about whether he lost his Polish citizenship is whether or not he was granted permission from the Polish government

I would very much imagine that he did not get that permission. However, can you prove that he fulfilled his military service obligations before leaving Poland? If not, you cannot show that he was a Polish citizen when your mother was born (as by then he would have needed to have fulfilled his military service obligations in Poland or would have lost his Polish citizenship). And can you prove that he did not serve in the Canadian military prior to 1951? If he did, he lost his citizenship before your mother was born.
Zibi Activity: - / 336
Joined: 19 Jul 2012 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #6

It's not a matter of informing Poland - he renounced it automatically upon obtaining Canadian citizenship.

I would say, read the polish embassy/consulate relevant pages and/or just go and talk to them. If any of your direct predecessors have polish citizenship then you can obtain one.
Harry Activity: 67 / 12,888
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #7

If any of your direct predecessors have polish citizenship then you can obtain one.

It doesn't work like that. Yes the grandfather in question was once a Polish citizen. But it is entirely possible that he lost that citizenship before the mother in question was born and thus had no citizenship to pass on.
delphiandomine Activity: 56 / 15,078
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #8

I would say, read the polish embassy/consulate relevant pages and/or just go and talk to them. If any of your direct predecessors have polish citizenship then you can obtain one.

It's not so simple - there are four relevant Citizenship Acts in Poland, and which ones are relevant depend on dates. But to cut a long story short, it works like this -

- You can only claim citizenship if you're entitled to it - this means that there needs to be a clear 'line' of citizenship being passed down.

- Obtaining a foreign citizenship before 1962 resulted in the automatic loss of Polish citizenship
- As of the Citizenship Act 2009, you can reclaim citizenship that was lost (but the claim must be made by the individual).

If the ancestor lost it and has now died, there is no possibility of claiming it.

The loss of citizenship is what catches most people out, as usually it meant that their parent(s) weren't Polish citizens to begin with. I'm not sure at the minute if they regard a newborn as having obtained (and then lost) citizenship in the case of Americans who obtain US citizenship under jus soli - there's no clear guidance from the authorities on this.
Zibi Activity: - / 336
Joined: 19 Jul 2012 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #9

It doesn't work like that.

Would you please read again what I wrote? "Direct predecessor". I personally know a person born in US, whose mother was not even born in Poland but had reclaimed her citizenship and thus he was able to so as well. And that was barely 2 years ago.
Harry Activity: 67 / 12,888
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #10

I read it. The grandfather in question is the 'direct predecessor' of the OP's mother, correct? So does that mean that she is a Polish citizen? Not necessarily, no. It is very possible that the grandfather lost his citizenship before she was even born.
Zibi Activity: - / 336
Joined: 19 Jul 2012 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #11

Lord Almighty. Didn't I write his (OP) direct predecessor? Anyhow. This case is probably moot.
delphiandomine Activity: 56 / 15,078
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #12

I personally know a person born in US, whose mother was not even born in Poland but had reclaimed her citizenship and thus he was able to so as well. And that was barely 2 years ago.

Yep, that's the crucial thing - citizenship can only be claimed from the parents (and even then, subject to some strange laws - the 1920 act was quite woman-hating)
OP Davey Activity: 13 / 389
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #13

He did not automatically lose citizenship....firstly, I don't even know whether or not he ever obtained Canadian citizenship, second, he was in the 18-50 range which means the only way he could have lost citizenship was to write to the Polish government to renounce it, or didn't fufill military obligations in Poland as stated above.
delphiandomine Activity: 56 / 15,078
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #14

Wrong. Acquisition of a foreign citizenship under the 1920 and 1951 acts automatically caused the renunciation of Polish citizenship. The 18-50 age range is irrelevant - as far as I recall, you're thinking about the foreign military service clause.

It'll be on you to prove that he didn't obtain Canadian citizenship during that time.
OP Davey Activity: 13 / 389
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #15

"Persons who are obligated to active military service can obtain a foreign citizenship in no other way than after obtaining an obligation release from Ministry of Military Affairs, otherwise, in view of The Polish State, they will be still considered Polish citizens. "

Since he was between 18 and 50, he was "obligated to active military service"
Harry Activity: 67 / 12,888
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25 Sep 2012  #16

the only way he could have lost citizenship was to write to the Polish government to renounce it, or didn't fufill military obligations in Poland as stated above.

And by taking a public office or entering the service in a foreign country’s army.

You seem to be dead set on spending a rather large amount of money in legal fees only to not get a Polish passport.
OP Davey Activity: 13 / 389
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #17

He wasn't in the Canadian army that's why I didnt even mention that one. Chciałbym kiedyś mieszkać w Europie=/
Harry Activity: 67 / 12,888
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25 Sep 2012  #18

And you have documentation from the Canadian ministry of defense confirming that there is no military service record for him prior to 1951?
pip Activity: 11 / 1,662
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25 Sep 2012  #19

jesus- why are so many looking for a free ride into Poland?

go through the embassy like everybody else does
PennBoy Activity: 77 / 2,444
Joined: 7 Dec 2008 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #20

ale może jeśli moja matka będzie otrzymała polskie obywaltelstwo będzie mi latwiej?

gdyby moja matka otrzymala polskie obywatelstwo bylo by mi latwiej. But good I see you're learning :-). Question though since you're a Canadian why would you wanna become a Polish citizen? It surely can't be because you're looking for employment? I guess it's because you also feel strongly Polish. My friend who is South African born holds three citizenships, I didn't even know that was possible. South African by birth, Polish because of Polish ancestry (parents) and American after residing here for twenty years.
OP Davey Activity: 13 / 389
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #21

Question though since you're a Canadian why would you wanna become a Polish citizen? It surely can't be because you're looking for employment? I guess it's because you also feel strongly Polish

I already have a job haha. I started teaching myself Polish when I was 13, went to Poland by myself at 16, took an intermediate Polish course in university(Received an 'A' might I add ), love Polish food, music etc. Never use Polish anymore though as there are barely any Poles around here so it's getting a little rusty!
ShortHairThug Activity: - / 1,097
Joined: 1 May 2009 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #22

I see that the two resident polonophobs of this forum are trying to discourage you in your quest as usual, do not be intimidated by what they are saying Dave. Good news is that neither of them is an expert on polish immigration law nor Polish themselves for that matter. If the Brazilian whose ancestors emigrated from Poland in 1920’s got confirmation of his Polish citizenship (he wrote about it somewhere on this forum) I don’t see why can’t you. Polish traditions have been passed on in your family through generations, your Polish is good enough, that’s half the battle right there.Your mother should get her confirmation of Polish citizenship first, that's the way he got his.
OP Davey Activity: 13 / 389
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #23

I found out through his immigration record that he never received a stamp of 'landed immigrant' nor was he deported, there's just a question mark under that category, the girl at the archives centre said she had never seen that before.

I know he worked on the Canadian railway so Canadian military service is doubtful....the problem is proof that he fufilled his military obligations in Poland....

Also to be clear this is my PRAdziadek we're talking about, he had my grandfather in 1935, then my mother was born in 1960.....I want to get citizenship for my mother...

I see that the two resident polonophobs of this forum are trying to discourage you in your quest as usual, do not be intimidated by what they are saying Dave

Thanks for the support=)
Harry Activity: 67 / 12,888
Joined: 2 May 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #24

'Doubtful' won't cut it: you'll need proof he didn't serve (but that shouldn't be too hard to get). I agree that your problem is going to be proving his Polish service obligations were met.
OP Davey Activity: 13 / 389
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #25

This military service thing is getting extremely confusing haha. Apparently the only way to obtain foreign citizenship if he had obligations to the Polish military was to get released, therefore losing his citizenship, but also if he left Poland without meeting service obligations he would also lose citizenship? It seems like either way he might have lost citizenship? Is there anyway he might have kept his citizenship? It seems as though any man who left Poland in that time between 18-50 would have lost citizenship?
delphiandomine Activity: 56 / 15,078
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #26

Also to be clear this is my PRAdziadek we're talking about, he had my grandfather in 1935, then my mother was born in 1960.....I want to get citizenship for my mother...

Ouch - this is actually going to be much more complicated for you. Is your grandfather still alive, and when did he obtain Canadian citizenship?

Article 11, paragraph 5 from the Citizenship Act 1951 would disqualify your grandfather if he obtained Canadian citizenship before 1962.

It seems like either way he might have lost citizenship?

It would be remarkably surprising if he didn't lose it - but the real problem is your grandfather. If he obtained Canadian citizenship before 1962 and is now no longer alive - then I'm afraid you're out of luck.

Polish traditions have been passed on in your family through generations, your Polish is good enough, that's half the battle right there

Poland doesn't care about "traditions", Poland cares about law.

As for your usual accusation of "polonophobia", lay off the PiS newspapers, eh?
OP Davey Activity: 13 / 389
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #27

Ouch - this is actually going to be much more complicated for you. Is your grandfather still alive, and when did he obtain Canadian citizenship?Article 11, paragraph 5 from the Citizenship Act 1951 would disqualify your grandfather if he obtained Canadian citizenship before 1962.

My grandfather(stil alive) was born in Canada in 1935 to a French mother and Polish father, I'm assuming he was automatically Canadian at birth, although his father never applied for naturalization until 1938
delphiandomine Activity: 56 / 15,078
Joined: 25 Nov 2008 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #28

This gets even more interesting. I think you're going to have to examine the French and Canadian citizenship laws to discover what he might have had - but as far as I can see - if he applied for naturalisation, then he would have automatically became a Canadian citizen under the Canadian Citizenship Act of 1946. This would have resulted in him being stripped of Polish citizenship under Article 11, Paragraph 5 of the 1951 Citizenship Act in Poland. Likewise with your grandfather - although it's not crystal clear as to whether your grandfather would have actually obtained Canadian citizenship.

All roads are suggesting that your grandfather would have been stripped of Polish citizenship under the 1951 Act at least - is he still alive?
PennBoy Activity: 77 / 2,444
Joined: 7 Dec 2008 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #29

Davey

If your parents or one of your parents were Polish born it would be one thing, but great grandparents is something much more complicated. I think they'll look at you as just another foreigner who wants to become a Polish citizen. I'm sure they'll take into consideration the fact that you have Polish roots, and being from a developed country (Canada) also helps. Good luck.
OP Davey Activity: 13 / 389
Joined: 29 Jun 2007 ♂
 
25 Sep 2012  #30

I know very complicated family history...but I did read somewhere a Polish citizen need permission from the Polish government to gain foreign citizenship?

I'm sure they'll take into consideration the fact that you have Polish roots, and being from a developed country (Canada) also helps.

Well I want my mother to get it as this is her grandfather who is from Poland, and then I'd apply after...




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