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British living in Poland - tax treaty with the UK?


_antoni
5 Nov 2014 #1
hi

I am a british person living in Poland,early this year i applied to stay in Poland.I have now been told that in fact i am Polish

by birth. What i would like to know about is the treaty with the uk about tax I am retired with a government pension eligible to be tax

in the UK the last line of the treaty reads that to be tax in Poland i have to be resident and a national.

can anybody tell me if i have read it right that if i am resident and British i will not pay tax to Poland ????
mfatimah225 - | 1
6 Nov 2014 #2
Every thing is possible in the world just we must found a way..
Monitor 14 | 1,820
6 Nov 2014 #3
Here is the treaty: hmrc.gov.uk/taxtreaties/in-force/uk-poland-dtc.pdf. If you live in Poland for over half a year you loose British tax residency and become Polish resident, thus you should pay most of your taxes in Poland.
warsawjambo - | 1
18 Nov 2015 #4
Merged: Taxation of UK state pension in Poland

Does anyone know how/whether UK state pension income is taxable in Poland?
Sjors 1 | 15
21 Nov 2015 #5
Depends on whether it's a private or public pension, which again depends on whether your employer was private or public. If private, then taxed in Poland. If public, then taxed in the UK. See article 17 & 18 of the DTC.
terri 1 | 1,665
22 Nov 2015 #6
Taxing of any income also depends on whether you are classed as resident or non-resident for tax purposes.
Sjors 1 | 15
22 Nov 2015 #7
True, I assumed warsawjambo would live permanently in Poland, in which case he would be considered a tax resident of Poland.
terri 1 | 1,665
22 Nov 2015 #8
You know what they say about 'assuming' things. ...:-)
Strange,
1. Usual government 'old-age' pension is not taxable, as it is below the tax-free allowance. (From April 2016 pension 119.30 pounds, so less now - the tax free allowance for 2015/16 is 10,500 pounds). .You would only be taxed in the UK, if your income is above the tax-free allowance. You would only be taxed if you receive private pension from any source and it is above the limit.

2. You must remember that once you become resident of Poland, your pension will never increase...(no cost of living or any other increases).
3. If you receive your pension in Poland, once they convert the value of your pension into zlotych, you will be taxed in the same way as any other citizen of Poland. You will not be entitled to the tax-free allowance applicable in England.
mcm1 2 | 81
22 Nov 2015 #9
I am not sure where you gained this information but it is wrong.

Point 1- the figure you have quoted is 'near enough' IF you will recieve your state pension before April 2016, for anyone else you would be on the new state pension. This is calculated on the years of paying into the system amongst other criteria. My wife has just recieved her pension forcast and it states currently it will be £197.20 (subject to change in the next 5 years)

Point 2- is wrong in its entirety. A UK citizen moving to Poland will still get any increases that you would get as if living in the UK.

Also it has been confirmed that the winter fuel payment will be payed to us.
All the above is subject to change of course!
If you aged 55 or over any UK person can get a pension forcast from the GOV.UK website.
dolnoslask
22 Nov 2015 #10
Very good stuff , but would a British pension be taxed in Poland under polish tax regs if you were resident?, that could be quite costly is so how costly
mcm1 2 | 81
22 Nov 2015 #11
The letter of the law would say yes.
terri 1 | 1,665
23 Nov 2015 #12
1. The figures for the new pension payment have not even been set in stone as yet. But I get your point. I will also be on the new one-tier, but expect to receive less than the anticipated 156.00 pounds they have been quoting. I send off for my forecast every 4 or 5 years just to be sure they are on the ball.

2. The devil is in the detail. Subject to change means that you CANNOT rely on the estimated figures, as within a year or two they may change. So unless you receive your pension NOW, you cannot say that in 2 years you will GET what they have forecasted.

They are trying to get rid of the 'winter fuel payments' to all pensioners living outside the UK - way of saving money, so you cannot rely on this as being set in stone either.

I take your point however, about the annual increases, as I could have been thinking about pensioners who reside outside the EU.
Braveheart16 18 | 201
9 Dec 2015 #13
As far as government pensions are concerned for example for ex civil servants there is a double taxation agreement between the UK and Poland and most other European countries. (Article 18 applies) Therefore you would only pay tax once in the UK and you should not be taxed again in Poland.
terri 1 | 1,665
9 Dec 2015 #14
I think that you can only pay your income tax in Britain, if you are a resident of Britain and you are entitled to receive your tax-free allowance.

However, once you become a permanent resident of Poland, it is likely that you will be taxed on your income in Poland in the same way as other Polish people.

If this is incorrect, perhaps someone who has gone through this process can advise.
Steveramsfan 2 | 306
18 Dec 2015 #15
It is more complicated than that. You can be dual resident in UK and Poland if you own property in UK and are resident in Poland.

The only way to know is to go on the HMRC websites and answer the questionnaires with your exact circumstances.
Braveheart16 18 | 201
19 Dec 2015 #16
@_antoni

Further to my post, Article 18 of the Double Taxation Convention states that:

(2) (a) Any pension paid by, or out of funds created by, a Contracting State (for example a government pension paid by the UK) or a political subdivision or a local authority thereof to an individual in respect of services rendered to that State or subdivision or authority shall be taxable only in that State. (ie. tax on this pension must be paid in the UK)

(b) Notwithstanding the provisions of sub-paragraph (a) of this paragraph, such pension shall be taxable only in the other Contracting State (for example Poland) if the individual is a resident of, and a national of, that State.

I think the key words here are 'resident' and 'national'. Hence it would appear that if you are both a 'resident' and a 'national' of Poland then tax on your UK government pension should be paid in Poland.

Hope this is of help.
dolnoslask
20 Dec 2015 #17
"both a 'resident' and a 'national' of Poland then tax on your UK government pension should be paid in Poland."

If, true hundreds of thousands of poles (If not a Million) currently working in the UK would be penalized with a further tax burden if they chose retire back in Poland and would probably never return.

Another lost generation?
terri 1 | 1,665
20 Dec 2015 #18
This is why establishing 'residency' is so important.
There is nothing stopping anyone from being a resident in the UK (i.e. spending more than 183 days in the UK) and spending the rest of the time in Poland. In this way you pay UK taxes, but would have UK tax-free allowance.
Steveramsfan 2 | 306
20 Dec 2015 #19
You don't have to live in UK for more than 183 days to be a UK resident.

Owning property in UK and having a British Passport means you can be a UK resident while living abroad.

You can then pay UK tax and not in the rest of the EU.
terri 1 | 1,665
20 Dec 2015 #20
Are you absolutely 100 percent positive about that?
cms 9 | 1,271
20 Dec 2015 #21
steve you are quite incorrect - if you are in Poland more than 184 days you would be liable for polish income tax even if you owned Brideshead.

What owning a uk property means is that you might finf it hard to avoid british inheritance tax when the day comes
dolnoslask
20 Dec 2015 #22
Must admit I have not seen a credible explanation to this question. We will have to wait until a uk / polish citizen who has been through the system lets us know what actually happen'd when they retired here.

Still lots of questions around someones center of interest.... UK investments, UK company ownership on retirement etc.
Braveheart16 18 | 201
20 Dec 2015 #23
I think it is worth clarifying the pension situation with @_antoni.....when you say you are in receipt of a UK government pension I am assuming you were previously working for the UK government as a civil servant or in some other government position in which case in normal circumstances tax will be paid in the UK (a government pension is different from other pensions such as 'state pensions' etc) If you are now resident and also a Polish national then it would seem that your tax should be paid in Poland. There is a HMRC form which you can complete and this will enable you to pay tax in Poland. As previously mentioned it would be beneficial to seek guidance and advice from HMRC.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
20 Dec 2015 #24
Owning property in UK and having a British Passport means you can be a UK resident while living abroad.

Doesn't work like that here. There are two rules - 1) Are you resident in Poland for more than 185 days? and 2) Is your centre of vital interests in PL? If yes to either question, then you're tax resident in PL and not the UK. The crucial thing regarding vital interests is that they look at the whole picture - it's not just about where you work, but also about where your family and social life is.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
20 Dec 2015 #25
I don't claim to know anything about pensions, but I know of someone that was caught out through the vital interests rule. He works in Switzerland Monday-Friday and stays in a company apartment or hotel, and the tax office questioned why he had significant amount of Swiss Francs in a Polish bank account. He used the 185 day rule, but they got him on the fact that his wife/children were here, he returned every weekend and he owned a car registered here - so his "vital interests" were here.
dolnoslask
20 Dec 2015 #26
Delph I agree this is where it all gets complicated.

What do you reckon to someone who has a house and car both in Poland and in the UK but also spends allot of time in Austria, Spain and the rest of Europe, but the sole source of income is the UK , is it a case of adding up every trip made counting the days etc, how would any government add up the time you spent in each country etc, or are you stateless ?, confusing eh.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,254
20 Dec 2015 #27
Minefield ;)

Probably UK tax resident in this case, especially if it could be proven that the time spent elsewhere wasn't a huge amount of time. But in this case, it would be best to get a ruling from the Polish tax office that the person is indeed tax resident in the UK and not here. The car registration is the tricky part - it's hard to argue that you don't live here if you've got a car on Polish plates.
dolnoslask
20 Dec 2015 #28
Yes Delph I agree Minefield I guess each case is different and needs to be investigated.
Braveheart16 18 | 201
23 Dec 2015 #29
dolnoslask.... If, true hundreds of thousands of poles (If not a Million) currently working in the UK would be penalized with a further tax burden if they chose retire back in Poland and would probably never return.

Not sure what you mean here, if any Polish worker from the UK chose to retire in Poland they can do so and would likely have to pay tax on their pension in Poland. (not sure whether you are suggesting that the 'hundreds of thousands of Poles' are working as civil servants but I would think that is unlikely. Therefore any pension payable would not be a government pension but some other pension ) The original post seems to be raising a point on whether his 'government pension' would be taxed in Poland now that he has been told he is a 'national' of Poland. The law on this point seems to suggest that you would need to be resident and a national before you would be required to pay tax in Poland, otherwise if you are a national of the UK and resident in Poland your tax on your 'government pension' will continue to be paid in the UK. (government pensions normally refer to ex civil servants or people who have worked for the government in some capacity. I hope this helps to clarify the situation a little more but yes this is a complex area.
johnnybb
15 Feb 2016 #30
hi. i am english and retired in Poland. I receive uk state pension and as a resident in poland i pay 18% tax on my uk state pension to the Polish government. i have made numerous enquires to uk tax office and Polish authority and i am afraid that if you are in reciept of uk pension and resident in Poland, then you will pay tax in Poland. I hope this helps.


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