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Bring your business to Poland!


gleite 6 | 38
27 Jan 2010 #1
Hi everyone... speaking a bit about business now, so that we can also attract good businessman to Poland. I must say that Poland is investing a lot of money (borrowed from EU, of course) into Technology Parks. Every big city, I must say mostly Krakow, Katowice, Wroclaw and Warsaw, have their own Business/Technology Parks. You will find several international companies that have installed themselves around, because of a long list of reasons.

Everything here is very cheap: rent, labour taxes, people hiring, company taxes, energy, water, heating. Nearly 50% of the population is of young people/students. The level of education here is very high, which converts into your future and reliable work force. There are incentives that provide new companies a big breath in the beginning by tax exemptions. An important fact about Poland is that it is located in a very special area in Europe, connecting to more than 10 important countries. It means: from Poland you can reach all the markets around, supplying them with your goods.

So, time to take some advantage of the situation, while still the EURO zone is not attacking Poland. Bring your Pounds, Euro, Swiss Francs or Dollar to invest here.

Hope I gave you some idea of what you and your company can gain here...

Cheers.
Think Twice
27 Jan 2010 #2
Everything here is very cheap:

reliable work force

What planet are you from ?

Get back on your rocket and BLAST OFF from here.
convex 20 | 3,978
27 Jan 2010 #3
rent, labour taxes, people hiring, company taxes, energy, water, heating.

rent for commercial property isn't all that cheap, taxes are 19% plus the same again for capital gains and dividends, the cost to employ labor is fairly high, at about 20%, energy, water, and heating are just as expensive as our neighbors to the west. Most of the investment incentives begin at about the 20m zl level. Bureaucracy adds a large cost to doing business here (your attorneys will probably be busy).

As much as I like Poland, the availability of cheap labor (cheap zloty) is pretty much the only plus I can see right now.
DannyJ - | 129
27 Jan 2010 #4
borrowed from EU, of course

Take it quick before Iceland starts crying they need it to update their 4x4s
dnz 17 | 710
27 Jan 2010 #5
Why would you bring your business from the UK to a country that don't like foreigners and where nothing is in English and simple tasks take weeks to do and then you don't get it done as theres always a problem or the people who are supposed to be helping you make a problem?

Also the majority of people are rude and untrustworthy and judging by the quality of the buildings they seem incapable of doing a good job of anything.

Also if you do bring your business to Poland all you will hear for the rest of eternity is "you in Poland you must speak Polish"
jonni 16 | 2,485
27 Jan 2010 #6
dnz

But plenty of companies have already relocated to Poland, and the beaurocracy isn't in fact that difficult to manage.
convex 20 | 3,978
27 Jan 2010 #7
It depends on how much money you come with. If you want to set up a small enterprise, there are barely any benefits to speak of. If you want to set up a factory, it doesn't matter if you speak Polish or not.
OP gleite 6 | 38
27 Jan 2010 #8
I guess this forum is more populated by people that don't like Poland a lot, or have lots of restrictions... :( That is so weird...

I thought it was more to talk about everything: showing good points and also negative.
But only to show how bad it is???
Common! Poland is good to make business, to work, to live... Everything is very cheap. You have to be smart and look for the right poeple to know the best procedures to open companies, finding places, employees....
convex 20 | 3,978
27 Jan 2010 #9
I guess this forum is more populated by people that don't like Poland a lot, or have lots of restrictions

No, there are realists here. It's a nice forum because you get the good and the bad.

When you say everything is cheap, what are you comparing it to? What is everything? Labor costs are cheaper for unskilled and semi skilled labor. Skilled labor isn't all that cheap, and the resource pool is pretty shallow.

Poland is probably the best place in Europe to invest if you say, have a company in Germany that makes plastic bumpers and you want to build a new €5million factory to make them with cheap labor over here. It's probably one of the worst places in Europe to start a small enterprise as a foreigner.
OP gleite 6 | 38
27 Jan 2010 #10
That is not true. Please inform us where do you live now? What are the chances you have now there? Compare it to Poland. Tell me what place you would choose?
dnz 17 | 710
27 Jan 2010 #11
I think convex hit the nail on the head with his previous post, Skilled labour here is expensive and difficult to find due to the majority of people who are worthwhile considering to take jobs have left to work abroad. Generally as a foreigner Poles doing business can't really be trusted as they seem to have got it into their heads that everyone from outside Poland is rich and they should take advantage. (harsh but true)

If you are opening a factory and pumping out thousands of units per day then the benefits would be seen but as a small enterprise Poland is a no go. The tax is higher, You have to pay tax regardless of whether you make a profit (most businesses don't for the first year) and the bureaucracy is a minefield and managed by people who really don't like foreign investment.

Transport links here are shocking, Driving in Poland is just dangerous, The trains are slow (but very reasonably priced) and if you have to travel between cities for meetings it could take days.

Overall at the present moment Poland really isn't great for business, Maybe when the locals can start to take constructive criticism and make things easier for non Poles who want to live here then yes, it could be a great place.

Look at the Poznan "world trade centre" Everything is in Polish, which seems ironic considering its called the world trade centre, A little bit of English and German wouldn't go amiss and would maybe encourage more overseas companies and businessmen to attend expos.
OP gleite 6 | 38
27 Jan 2010 #12
Consider Wroclaw, Katowice, Lodz, Krakow...
Poznan I am afraid I am not very much aware of...

Full of students and recent graduated professionals, willing to give the work force. Incentives from government, from EU. Currency is a great advantage. Reliable communication inside the city. Close to Germany, Slowakia, Rep. Czech, Hungary, Russia and others. Most of the students in these cities speak English + second language other than Polish.

Mmmmm... if you only take into consideration that taxes are high, transportation can be faulty sometimes, ... I am sorry, but you are just considering the worst facts possible. Try to think of the positive ones....
dnz 17 | 710
27 Jan 2010 #13
Try to think of the positive ones....

Thats the problem, I have for the last 3 years,

I can see that cost is an advantage here in Poland but for a small firm that cost saving is quickly outweighed by the bad points, I'm just being realistic.

Give it 10 years and I can see where you're coming from but even large companies like VW are struggling after starting production in Poland.
convex 20 | 3,978
27 Jan 2010 #14
I live in Wroclaw.

I have an sro in the Czech Republic (IT) with a turnover of less than 30m crowns a year, employee training was paid for during the first 3 years, also received hefty breaks on employee taxes for the first 2 years. Czechinvest helped out quite a bit in getting everything rolling. Taxes are straightforward, contract law is clear and easily enforceable, base corp tax rate is 20% and tax on dividends is 15%. Income tax is a flat 15%.

I've got an LTD in Cyprus, but it would be ridiculous to compare Cyprus to Poland (or anywhere else for that matter), so I'll leave that one.

I was also looking at starting a business in Slovakia, 19% flat tax and no tax on dividends. I've heard that SARIO is kind of like PAIiIZ in that unless you're coming with a dumptruck full of money, it's not worth getting involved.

As for Poland, I've got an Sp. z o.o. (aviation) and a second one on the way (maintenance).

How about you? What have your experiences been so far in Poland and abroad?
dnz 17 | 710
27 Jan 2010 #15
What does your aviation business do? Just out of interest as one of my friends is an aircraft engineer and is thinking about starting a business in order to go freelance.
convex 20 | 3,978
27 Jan 2010 #16
On a positive note, the internal market is growing...and things are slowly getting better. The skilled labor pool is growing.

On a negative note, the zloty will probably be pushed back up making Poland less attractive for foreign capital.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
27 Jan 2010 #17
Incentives from government, from EU.

Not really, where small businessses are concerned. There's some capital funding, but not much - and certainly nowhere near enough to meet demand. Banking is also very difficult for small businesses - Polsh banks just aren't lending to anyone that might be a risk, which is great for stability but bad for the startup.

Currency is a great advantage.

In some respects. In other respects, it's a massive disadvantage - the instability of the Zloty vs the Euro isn't a good thing in general. You won't find anyone in business who actually thinks that it's good to have the Zloty see-sawing constantly.

Mmmmm... if you only take into consideration that taxes are high

Tax for businesses is everything - for the small entrepeneur, the ZUS payments are a huge hurdle to climb.

I'm not saying Poland is a bad place for investment, but convex has it bang on the money - it's not really a great place either. Give it time, the PO government should enact more and more reforms - but right now, it's hard to say that it's a worthwhile place for the small business to start.

Just look at the shocking amount of social insurance paid by both employer and employee!

I'm not convinced you actually know anything about Polish business, because if you did, you'd know that in order to pay someone 2000zl a month netto, the cost to the business is 3256.09zl. That's an astronomical burden - and it explains why quite a few Polish workers don't have health insurance or a pension as a result.

I'm struggling to see what advantages there are for the small business owner who wants to be a just and fair employer.

Actually, I want to rebut a few things -

Everything here is very cheap: rent,

For small business, yes, rent is cheap. I'll give that.

labour taxes

Haha. See above. I can give an even better example - to pay an employee 4000zl a month netto, you have to pay 6500zl in total. How is that cheap?!

people hiring,

Depends on what you want them to do. English teachers are cheap. Computer science graduates aren't.

company taxes

Wrong. They're low, but the social taxes is the reason why.

energy

Not at all. Energy costs are quite high compared to the cost of living.

water,

Not particularly cheap.

heating.

Again, not at all. Poland gets most of her gas from Russia - prices really aren't much lower than Western countries.

Nearly 50% of the population is of young people/students.

Where's the source for that statistic? Bearing in mind plenty of young people fled after 2004, and let's not forget that the current generation of workers is paying pensions for today's pensioners - there's nothing in the pot for tomorrow. This can only mean even higher social contributions in time to come.

The level of education here is very high, which converts into your future and reliable work force.

Again, you're showing your inexperience/knowledge of Poland. Many "degrees" are from private institutions which will award a degree to a monkey, and the ones from the public universities are often lacking in real content. There are some exceptions, but plenty of courses are producing graduates with no real skills, especially in the weaker public universities. Just look at the content of a three year degree at Poznan University of Economics in Business Management - most of it is useless.

There are incentives that provide new companies a big breath in the beginning by tax exemptions.

I don't see these incentives, where are they?
Honest George 1 | 105
27 Jan 2010 #18
Try to think of the positive ones....

Try some research with the companies that have already tried investing in Poland, only to have backed out due to bureaucracy and scrupulous dealings. They have quoted never to return again after spending millions just to come up against a brick wall.

In reality the Poles are victims of their own demise. I think you will find that their reputation has gone somewhat downhill, when it comes to foreign investment.

ps. can,t think of anything positive at the moment..... sorry friend.
OP gleite 6 | 38
27 Jan 2010 #19
Wow, after all this words, really gotta say u had your point more than clear. I am afraid I am just a beginner in the finance field here in Poland. However, once you embrace a cause, I stick to it. You are being very analytical, considering mainly small companies. But why not open this discussion to medium-big companies? About the education background you referred that diploma is almost being sold... please name a country around poland that provide the same quality if service with better costs??? Maybe it will be easier to name the ones that are trying to be like poland...
convex 20 | 3,978
27 Jan 2010 #20
You are being very analytical, considering mainly small companies. But why not open this discussion to medium-big companies?

Large companies go where they get the best govt. deal. Poland has cheap labor and is close to markets in Germany. That's a pretty big plus.

please name a country around poland that provide the same quality if service with better costs???

Universities in the Czech Republic and, to a lesser degree, Slovakia, aren't too bad. I've heard good things about Estonia too.

edit

I think Poland is a great place to invest depending on what your requirements are. Are you in service, manufacturing...Is it for the internal market? For export?

Is it the easiest place to make money? No. Can you make money? Absolutely.
Wroclaw Boy
27 Jan 2010 #21
Everything here is very cheap: rent, labour taxes, people hiring, company taxes, energy, water, heating.

Heatings cheap if you can be bothered to chop wood or shovel coal, dont think that will be economically viable at industry level. As for the rest get real man.

On the EU front the grant fund in my area of interest have abandoned the last two windows of application through lack of funds.
bullfrog 6 | 603
27 Jan 2010 #22
Poland is investing a lot of money (borrowed from EU, of course)

Given not borrowed!!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
27 Jan 2010 #23
I am afraid I am just a beginner in the finance field here in Poland.

So why post as if you're an expert? I don't post about big business in Poland because I frankly know nothing about it other than what I read, apart from them having the same issues as small businesses, such as social taxation.

You are being very analytical, considering mainly small companies.

That's beause the vast majority of businesses of interest to forum readers will be small and medium sized companies. It's very unlikely most people on here will have the authority to move a large concern into Poland!

About the education background you referred that diploma is almost being sold... please name a country around poland that provide the same quality if service with better costs??? Maybe it will be easier to name the ones that are trying to be like poland...

Quite a lot are trying not to be like Poland - what with the ridiculously restrictive laws surrounding workers on permanent work contracts, with the taxation system that demands VAT be paid very quickly, the lack of decent credit terms (Poland standard : 14 days maximum - UK standard : 30 days minimum) and instability of the currency doesn't lend itself to a stable business environment. There's also the unstable political environment - Poland as a whole has been absolutely unstable since 1989, and while the PO/PSL coalition is pro-big business (provided farmers are allright!), PiS and the SLD can hardly be said to be huge fans of big business.

Poland is attracting big business for one sole reason - it lies in central Europe and is ridiculously cheap if you're producing in Zloty and selling in Euro.

As for education - Poland is suffering quite badly under the free tertiary education, allowing many to stay students for as long as they want, along with allowing people to sit a 2nd or even 3rd degree free of charge. I know quite a few people who have done two degrees at the same time - does this make them well qualified? Nope - if anything, it makes them overqualified and underexperienced.
OP gleite 6 | 38
28 Jan 2010 #24
Delphiandomine, what is your area of expertise? What are you exploiting here in Poland?
I see you are quite strong in knowledge... Maybe you share with us what have you finally conquered? Market analysis you are quite good, but in terms of results ? I am sorry if my knowledge is bit behind yours, however my area of expertise is networking and marketing... By the way, I had a case study reading your explanations about Poland. Should say if a big businessman check this forum out, for sure you would be accounted to be his CFO or any Finance Master.... :)

Thanks Convex for agreeing in some points with me!

So sharing with you guys, I am looking forward into finding business partners ready to invest in Poland. My intentions are to have an IT company represented here. Speak three languages (Spanish, English, Portuguese)+ basic Polish (1,5year?) + over 10years with IT. Anyone here is aware of opportunities?

Czesc!
delphiandomine 88 | 18,475
28 Jan 2010 #25
Delphiandomine, what is your area of expertise? What are you exploiting here in Poland?

Me? Customer care and marketing, mainly. I run a business helping foreigners alongside dabbling in teaching to keep me sane.

Market analysis you are quite good, but in terms of results ?

Well, my foreigners agency is doing quite well for a first year company - I have some difficult decisions to make concerning it (what to focus on, how to expand) - which is why I can tell you strongly that Poland doesn't encourage small business at all. I may have to diversify - with the two year limitation on cheap social insurance payments, you really, really cannot sit still as a small business.

So sharing with you guys, I am looking forward into finding business partners ready to invest in Poland. My intentions are to have an IT company represented here. Speak three languages (Spanish, English, Portuguese)+ basic Polish (1,5year?) + over 10years with IT. Anyone here is aware of opportunities?

My suggestion, personally, would be to approach medium sized busineses in the UK, USA and Poland who could benefit from outsourcing to Poland, or indeed launching their product here. There are also some IT companies who are doing well in Eastern Europe, but who just don't seem to know how to go West at all, despite their products being very good.
fromestonia
28 Jan 2010 #26
i am an estonian entrepreneur and am looking for good people in poland to start a business with. if you are looking for a good business partner let me know at ott.kohjus@mail.ee
OP gleite 6 | 38
28 Jan 2010 #27
Nice. Thanks for the advices into searching companies from the East. Will certainly start looking for them now.

Dephian , any chances can get you added in my Linkedin ? In case you need help with the foreigners, I am Brazillian and can share some advices, since I wrote an ebook....

So, anyone wishing to come to Poland... ??????
Hopelessness
28 Jan 2010 #28
Also if you do bring your business to Poland all you will hear for the rest of eternity is "you in Poland you must speak Polish"

I agree totally. I had a business in Poland and everything was a headache, employees are very untrustworthy. When you're watching them, the work so so, and when you're gone nothing happens. Small businesses have no future. If you have over 10 million zt. you might succeed. Good luck to you doing so!
dnz 17 | 710
28 Jan 2010 #29
So, anyone wishing to come to Poland... ??????

Sorry chap i'm already here and getting ready to move to Australia :)

Are you based in Poland at the moment or still in Brazil?
landora - | 199
28 Jan 2010 #30
As for education - Poland is suffering quite badly under the free tertiary education.

O'really?


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