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My Poland born father served in a foreign army - Polish citizenship questions


Andydr
4 Jul 2015 #1
Hello all.
I'm a 23 year old female. My grandpa was born in Poland in 1922, and arrived to Belgium after WW 2.
He moved to Israel in 1947, and therefore was obligated to join their army in 1948 when Israel was established.
He wasn't a real soldier as he was already 26.
His papers say that he had a Compulsory service between 16/5/1948 to 25/6/1949 (during the whole war).
Then he had Reserve between that date to 18/09/1976.

I'm well aware of the Polish law about people who served in a foreign army, but I'm also aware for some precedents, caused by one's age during his service etc.

Does someone know of any specific precedent I can lean on?
If you know anyone who had the same problem and managed to get his Polish citizenship, I'd be so grateful to know.

Thanks!!!
N
jestespalant
4 Jul 2015 #2
so are you Belgian or Israeli?
Are you after a Polish passport?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
4 Jul 2015 #3
I'm well aware of the Polish law about people who served in a foreign army, but I'm also aware for some precedents, caused by one's age during his service etc.

Alas, you probably don't have much hope. The citizenship act in force at the time is very clear on the matter, and it's unlikely that they will grant citizenship to someone who willingly served in a foreign army.

Did he fight at all in WW2 for any recognised Polish side? If so, it may help...
OP Andydr
4 Jul 2015 #4
I'm Israeli.
My grandpa is Jewish, he wasn't a Polish soldier in WW2, he was in camps...
Lolek222 - | 80
4 Jul 2015 #5
You are Israeli, he was Jewish, what from you want from Poland?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
4 Jul 2015 #6
He was a Polish citizen.

He might have lost it due to his service in a foreign army, but well, plenty of Poles did just that.
OP Andydr
4 Jul 2015 #7
Exactly, my grandpa is Polish. He was born and raised in Poland to Polish parents.
I mentioned that he is Jewish because that's why he wasn't a Polish soldier. He was sent to camps.

As I said,
I'm well aware of the Polish law about people who served in a foreign army, but I'm also aware for some precedents, caused by one's age during his service etc.

This is what i'm looking for. Those precedents.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
4 Jul 2015 #8
Unfortunately, it's a case-by-case basis and not subject to any hard and fast rules.

The best thing you can do is simply get your mother/father to apply for citizenship - and if they get it, then you'll get it automatically.
OP Andydr
4 Jul 2015 #9
And what are my father's chances to get it after what i mentioned about his father's military service?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
4 Jul 2015 #10
Best not to say anything unless they specifically ask for information.
OP Andydr
4 Jul 2015 #11
My file has been issued for a year and a half now. I know that it's now at the Wojewoda Mazowiecki. I was wondering if this could take as long as the previous step and if I can lean on anything in trying to figure out what my chances are.
szczepkowski
26 Aug 2017 #12
@Andydr
Employ an agent to make the application for you. Polish citizenship.pl is one and there may be others.
Rights Watchdog
26 Aug 2017 #13
No, the OP needs a good lawyer. Otherwise this can go on for years unresolved. Polish citizenship laws have changed through the years, but under the 1920 Polish citizenship law it was impossible for any male to have lost Polish citizenship due to serving in a foreign army or as a civil servant before age 50 IF mandatory military service in Poland had not been completed, or an exception granted. This is known as the "military paradox" rule. People like this need to stay tuned in, as legal action may soon be pending either in the Polish courts or the ECJ for discrimination against the foreign born citizens of the Second Polish Republic by the Third and its administrators. The OP should demand that the Polish government produce his/her grandfather's passport and military records, i.e. draft notices, etc. The government is required to produce these documents that are relevant to the citizenship recognition application.

Also, the OP needs to ignore those here that aren't lawyers, and never applied for recognition of Polish citizenship as a birth right. Citizenship is a right not a privilege for the foreign born. Don't believe anyone who tries to tell you different.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,560
26 Aug 2017 #14
recognition of Polish citizenship as a birth right. Citizenship is a right not a privilege for the foreign born.

Damn right it is may Poland recognise all of her children.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
26 Aug 2017 #15
as legal action may soon be pending either in the Polish courts or the ECJ for discrimination against the foreign born citizens of the Second Polish Republic by the Third and its administrators.

Sorry, but this is a fantasy. No such action is underway, as the 1920 citizenship law is very clear. Many "foreign born" people in the time of the II RP were disqualified for many reasons, and no amount of fantasy will change that.

The government is required to produce these documents that are relevant to the citizenship recognition application.

Nonsense. The government is under no obligation to produce any documents. Could you quote from the relevant article of the law that suggests that they are required to do so?

Citizenship is a right not a privilege for the foreign born

Nope. Without being recognised as a Polish citizen, it remains a privilege. As has been told many times before, foreigners with tax issues are often required to clear those debts before being given Polish citizenship, either by descent or by naturalisation.
jon357 63 | 14,255
26 Aug 2017 #16
The law is very clear on the matter - there are no grounds for the current citizenship laws (far more relaxed than most in Europe) to be overturned; this has already been tested in court

Also, the OP needs to ignore those here that aren't lawyers,

You realise you've just asked the OP to ignore you?
Rights Watchdog
27 Aug 2017 #17
may Poland recognise all of her children

I expect that things are going to change, since it should benefit PiS for more conservative Poles living abroad to be recognized as citizens with voting rights. However, the last sentence of Article 11 of the 1920 Polish citizenship act plainly stated that those still "obligated to active military service" in Poland were required to have received a release from the Ministry of Military Affairs before they could legally lose Polish citizenship. Otherwise, Poland would continue to recognize them as its citizens. The law couldn't have been clearer. In short, unless the government has either a record of a man's military service, or a record of release from compulsory service, it was impossible for him to have lost Polish citizenship under that law. Subsequently, the law was changed to requiring permission from the Polish president before citizenship could be renounced. So, without documents to support continued delay to search for additional records, etc., the administrators are not faithfully executing the laws of Poland. The matter is being addressed with the present government.
mafketis 21 | 7,463
27 Aug 2017 #18
However, the last sentence of Article 11 of the 1920 Polish citizenship act

Is no longer in force....
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
27 Aug 2017 #19
So, without documents to support continued delay to search for additional records, etc., the administrators are not faithfully executing the laws of Poland.

There is no obligation on the part of the Polish government to search for any mysterious documents on behalf of people who think that their name ending in 'ski' entitles them to a Polish passport.

It is the applicant's obligation to prove the claim, not the Polish government's.

As for the act in 1920, foreign-born people had their citizenship chosen for them at birth by their parents. They did not automatically take Polish citizenship, and it would be very unlikely for someone to choose Polish over American citizenship when resident in the US.
Bieganski 17 | 901
27 Aug 2017 #20
It is the applicant's obligation to prove the claim, not the Polish government's.

Oh, so you are saying the Polish government will accept documents at face value from any applicant and not compare them to anything in their own archives.
jon357 63 | 14,255
27 Aug 2017 #21
There is no obligation on the part of the Polish government to search for any mysterious documents

None at all.

The matter is being addressed with the present government.

Good luck with that. 'The matter' has been 'addressed' already, and the result was the status quo.
Bieganski 17 | 901
27 Aug 2017 #22
The matter is being addressed with the present government.

Absolutely.

The PRLegacy status quo's demise will begin on 11 November 2018 when the current transitional constitution is overwhelming voted on to be replaced.
jon357 63 | 14,255
27 Aug 2017 #23
It is the applicant's obligation to prove the claim, not the Polish government's.

This has always been the case. Some people just don't fit the requirements.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,560
27 Aug 2017 #24
Some people just don't fit the requirements.

But also some laws in Poland are not fit for purpose, If the current government in Poland is voted in for a second term then I think very many laws will change.

Current laws regarding citizenship should be tigtened in some respects, but also made more sympathetic to phose who claim citizenship by descent.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
27 Aug 2017 #25
The PRLegacy status quo's demise will begin on 11 November 2018 when the current transitional constitution is overwhelming voted on to be replaced.

Except that as those of us who actually live in Poland know, this isn't supported by the government. There is no "overwhelming" support for changing it, as witnessed by the government's reluctance to even discuss the issue.

Oh, so you are saying the Polish government will accept documents at face value from any applicant and not compare them to anything in their own archives.

Actually, due to the mass destruction of documentation in WW2, the Polish government is often unable to do such checks. In this case, they look carefully at the supplied documentation and compare it to known documentation from the era in question to ascertain the credibility of the supplied documentation.

Still, as you are now portraying yourself as an expert on Polish law, perhaps you can quote the article and paragraph that obliges the Polish government to release documents.

This has always been the case. Some people just don't fit the requirements.

Quite. The Polish government is continuing the correct policy of making sure that people with only a vague connection to Poland do not use Poland as a easy way into the European Union.
jon357 63 | 14,255
27 Aug 2017 #26
If the current government in Poland is voted in for a second term then I think very many laws will change.

There's never been any suggestion by any political party to change the requirements for proving cotizenship/

perhaps you can quote the article and paragraph that obliges the Polish government to release documents.

If such documents even exist, or, if they do, back up a particular case. Renouncing citizenship, having it renounced on your behalf, bearing arms against Poland or having citizenship stripped are all pretty conclusive.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,771
27 Aug 2017 #27
There's never been any suggestion by any political party to change the requirements for proving cotizenship/

Indeed. The current government has never even suggested anything in this respect. Policies towards the Eastern Polonia who were forced there as a result of WW2 are favourable, but the government sees no reason to support economic migrants to the West.

pretty conclusive.

Exactly. If you cannot document your claim, you have no claim.

I imagine Polish citizens like yourself have no interest in handing out passports to people of dubious morality from the West as well.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,560
27 Aug 2017 #28
There's never been any suggestion by any political party

Who knows Jon , look at the changes the current government is undertaking, massive change to the judicial system and propsed changes to the constitution who would have thought it, whats next?
jon357 63 | 14,255
27 Aug 2017 #29
changes

None of which involve the 1920 citizenship laws. Nor are they likely to continue.

who would have thought it, whats next?

That's a whole other question.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,560
27 Aug 2017 #30
None of which involve the 1920 citizenship laws.

Well thats a bit out of date today, things like being in a foreign army were brought in to stop returnees who's traitor parents fought for the Bolshevics, Tony Blairs grandfarher for instance, Just imagine if Poland had let in Tony Blair and he became Polish prime minister what a nightmare.e

The thing is out of date and should be up for review, someone needs to start a petition.


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