The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / Law  % width posts: 44

Accounting in Poland, business venture


W75 4 | 25
20 Jul 2012 #1
Hello,

I wonder this:

All small business must pay tax in Poland (like in practically all other countries). The way they find out how much they should pay in tax is by doing accounting/bookkeeping.

Many small business owners in Poland aren't into this, doesn't like it or doesn't know how to do it - so they buy help from bookkeeping companies. In Norway it's normal that many in industries such as cafeterias, decorators and used car sellers, buy bookkeeping services from small bookkeeping companies.

So, my question is, for such services, how much do they normally have to pay per hour?

And, there are differences in what education is needed to be allowed to help small business with accounting. In Germany the accounting education needed is a couple of years in a high school teaching accounting, and in Norway the law says that in order to help small business (and all business) you need at least three years in college plus several years as some sort of "trainee".

What does the law say in Poland about what's required of education to be allowed to do accounting?

The business venture I plan is to recruit Polish people who are still early in their education, and offer then a scholarship to educate themselves both in accounting for another country and become fluent in the language, and work up against customers in other countries such as Luxemburg, Germany, Netherlands and so forth, getting a good Polish wage which in turn should be a moderate wage in the forth mentioned countries.

But, I am having problems finding Polish companies which helps small business in Poland with bookkeeping for tax purposes, and I don't know what the normal salaries are in Poland for those helping small business with bookkeeping (and which education is required for them).

Let me rephrase that:

Would it be difficult to find people who would be willing to work from Poland for 1100$ per month? They would get one year of language training, and one year of bookkeeping training first. And, they should be among the brightest, kindest and learn language quickly.

I'm thinking about cities like:
Poznan, Szczecin, Rzeszow, Krakow, Gdansk
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
22 Jul 2012 #2
Would it be difficult to find people who would be willing to work from Poland for 1100$ per month?

Gross or net ?

They would get one year of language training, and one year of bookkeeping training first.

Sorry but realistically half of them would give up during first 2 years... You need people, who already are fluent in these languages...

I'm thinking about cities like:
Poznan, Szczecin, Rzeszow, Krakow, Gdansk

What is the scale of this project ? How many jobs created ? Please contact me via mail If you don't want to make it public.
OP W75 4 | 25
22 Jul 2012 #3
Gross per month.

If I would begin, I'd start with few peolpe and build it up slowly.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
22 Jul 2012 #4
Gross per month.

So that's enough but for recent graduates...

If I would begin, I'd start with few peolpe and build it up slowly.

Hmm ok but still teaching people foreign languages doesn't seem to be a good idea... you simply need to recruit people, who already posses right language skills...
OP W75 4 | 25
22 Jul 2012 #5
Thank you for your input Grzegorz. You write that it's enough for recent graduates. If you have an opinion of what people with experience would need, then please weigh in.

The job specific education would be one year after high school.

Like you say, it might be better to go with people already proficient in the language, only that I fear they would be harder to negotiate with. If one doesn't go with people who already speak a foreign language, then one year of language training would come on top.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
22 Jul 2012 #6
The job specific education would be one year after high school.

I was talking about people, who recently got BA/MA as these are people you need, in Poland half of young people go for university level education, the rest are either people, who chose some particular trades like construction worker, hairdresser etc. and will never be interested in accounting or people, who are simply too stupid for any kind of "office" job.

If you have an opinion of what people with experience would need, then please weigh in.

~30% more.

Like you say, it might be better to go with people already proficient in the language, only that I fear they would be harder to negotiate with.

Being fluent in English and/or German is a norm among decent graduates. People with Spanish, French, Italian or Russian are rare but not impossible to find, It is very difficult to find someone fluent in Dutch or Danish but you won't be able to teach that in 1 year anyway...
OP W75 4 | 25
22 Jul 2012 #7
Hmm. 30% more than 1100$, for experienced people with a BA/MA... That sounds very good.

Those who'd be likely to want to come work, which types of university degrees do you think they could have? (I know people with some degrees charge a lot...)

Take Dutch for example. Refugees who already speak English, and are commited to learn, does it in some years when studying part time. Take the "linguistically best and brightest" and they'll learn it quicker (all if living in the country they are learning the language of). I personally know a dedicated woman who moved to Holland and was fluent in less than a year. But, enough about that...

The reason I was thinking about those after high school was that they learn language quicker when they are in their late teens, and have not begun college/uni yet. But enough about that as well...

What I'd really like to hear is more of the thread we begun spinning on; about which BA/MA degrees people could have, and want to work for my offer. I know little of Poland, so all info, thoughts anc opinions are appreciated.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
22 Jul 2012 #8
Hmm. 30% more than 1100$, for experienced people with a BA/MA... That sounds very good.

That's only because the zloty is weak. When it strengthens again to even 2.5, you'll be faced with a drastic increase in salary costs. Also - bear in mind that they're going to demand far more money to work in the West than they will in Poland - you're not going to find intelligent people being willing to work in the West for a poor local salary.

The reason I was thinking about those after high school was that they learn language quicker when they are in their late teens, and have not begun college/uni yet.

No-one is going to be interested in such an offer at that age - in Poland, higher education is almost obligatory if you want a decent job.
wawa_marek 1 | 129
22 Jul 2012 #9
What does the law say in Poland about what's required of education to be allowed to do accounting?

You will have to employ the person having Accounting Certificate issued by the Minister of Finance authorizing them to provide bookkeeping services.
What you are going to do is just typical offshore accouting. Have in mind it's great competition fron India (for English speaking countries).
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
22 Jul 2012 #10
Those who'd be likely to want to come work, which types of university degrees do you think they could have? (I know people with some degrees charge a lot...)

Right now there is oversupply of people with all kinds of non-technical degrees... economy, marketing, sociology etc.

Take Dutch for example. Refugees who already speak English, and are commited to learn, does it in some years when studying part time. Take the "linguistically best and brightest" and they'll learn it quicker (all if living in the country they are learning the language of). I personally know a dedicated woman who moved to Holland and was fluent in less than a year. But, enough about that...

Yes but you're talking about people, who are: 1. desperate 2. live in a country, where the language is spoken. It is not possbile with someone having 4 or 6 hours of classes a week... If you mean that a person would do not much else for the 1st year than learn the language... then what If they give up after 6 or 12 months ? You would lose all the money invested in them. Generally, I've never heard about such thing before, you can find here people fluent in major European languages, in case of others, companies operating here use to recruit foreigners.

Overall, your business idea is not a bad one but looks like you are not ready to actually start it in near future.
OP W75 4 | 25
22 Jul 2012 #11
No-one is going to be interested in such an offer at that age - in Poland, higher education is almost obligatory if you want a decent job.

Perhaps you were a bit quick to read the thread: What's in question is working from a Polish city, up against clients in other countries. So it's what people would want to accept as a salary living in Poznan, Szczecin, Rzeszow, Krakow, Gdansk which is the question. Good point about the currency fluctuations. 1100$ gross per month is now 3765 PLN.

In Norway people choose a bookkeeping education 19, and in Germany people choose that education at 16. It's a short tertiary education, with some school and some practice, which is specific for one special job. I really don't understand why people in Poland shouldn't choose that education after high school is finished, when they are somewhere around 18-19.

What you are going to do is just typical offshore accouting. .

Thanks for the tip about the certificate. In Norway it's a institution appointed by the ministry of finance which gives permits. Do you have a link where I could read about the Polish authorization you're talking about? It's no problem that it's not in English since the translation tools are alright-ish.

Right now there is oversupply of people with all kinds of non-technical degrees... economy, marketing, sociology etc.

"If you mean that a person would do not much else for the 1st year than learn the language...". Yes.

And... If they drop out, that's a risk we'd have to take. It would be our job to make the stay as delighting as possible.

I am a bit puzzled though that you'd say we could get university graduates, in economy or marketing to work for the 1100$ gross per month, since according to FT, people with degress from Warsaw School of Economics and Kozminski University both earn 3900-4300$ gross per month.

rankings.ft.com/businessschoolrankings/european-business-school-rankings-2011
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
23 Jul 2012 #12
And... If they drop out, that's a risk we'd have to take.

That's a bit too much risk in my opinion.

I am a bit puzzled though that you'd say we could get university graduates

Well, definitely not all of them and not on the first position after finishing studies, besides these are some of the best business schools in Poland, these are not the people you should be looking for, they are searching for "management trainee" programs at global companies and such stuff, they won't be willing to do a process based job (such as accounting on the clerk level, customer service etc.) even if you would pay much more than $1100 gross. For this kind of business, you would need to set up an office in a city like Bydgoszcz, Olsztyn, Szczecin or Lubilin and employ graduates of local univs, they would regard 2500 PLN net a month salary as quite good.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
23 Jul 2012 #13
I really don't understand why people in Poland shouldn't choose that education after high school is finished, when they are somewhere around 18-19.

Because - quite honestly - you'd be hurting yourself in the long run as a young person. If you've got the brains to speak a second language and to do this sort of work, you might as well go to university and not leave yourself lacking compared to your peers.

Having said this - what you could do is offer to pay for part time (weekend) studies for these people too. 2000PLN a month after tax plus university education paid for (which isn't much for you) could be a very attractive offer for a 19-20 year old. But - you still have to contend with the fact that anything less than full time studies is seen as inferior in Poland.
OP W75 4 | 25
23 Jul 2012 #14
@Grzegorz_
Thank you for your reply! :-)

The numbers from the FT site is one year after graduation. But like you said, it's the top schools.

If I understand you right, people with degrees in marketing or sociology or perhaps some lower economical education might want the job. And graduates in such classes from cities like Bydgoszcz, Olsztyn, Szczecin or Lubilin might be a place to look. The reason you mentioned those cites, is that because they have high unemployment rates, or are especially poor?

But - you still have to contend with the fact that anything less than full time studies is seen as inferior in Poland.

So what you're saying is that it's not possible to get talented people to accept work for 3765 PLN gross in the cities I mentioned. Fine. Noted.

The job would be secure, so a fallback education is really only meaningful if one doesn't want to work for 3765 PLN.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
23 Jul 2012 #15
The job would be secure, so a fallback education is really only meaningful if one doesn't want to work for 3765 PLN.

The problem is that in Poland, people look at post-qualification experience. No-one will give an accounting job to someone who doesn't have higher education, so they absolutely must get this education first - or during - their studies. But as I said, part-time studies are seen as inferior.

Remember as well - if you offer 3765PLN gross now - will you still offer it if the Zloty goes back to 2.2PLN/USD?

In the cities you've mentioned - apart from perhaps Rzeszow, talented people will leave you after a short time if you can't offer the career for them.
cms 9 | 1,255
23 Jul 2012 #16
I think I answered this a few months ago - well done for pressing on with your case. If you can dig out what I wrote before it still applies with a few changes - mostly in your favour

- rates are going down for accounting clerks. In my experience they have fallen 5-10% over the past year and you would get people starting at around 2.700 (though with limited language skills). Reason is that shared service centres now recognized as being boring work and also less entry of shared service centres in past year or so.

- unemployment among young people is going up quite rapidly in most big towns and you would be surprized at the rates in some big towns. In Gdansk and Wroclaw overall unemployment now at 7%+ (I havent bothered to check the exact figures in case some pedant finds its 6,5%).

You would probably be better off with India or South Africa though - less language problems, lower wages, better accounting traditions and in the case of India you can shorten your deadlines by them working during the European night.
OP W75 4 | 25
23 Jul 2012 #17
Your input is appreciated CMS.

Yes, you're right I raised the question a while back. Looking back at that thread I can see that delphiandominestated quite clearly that you would not be «comfortable» with living in cities like Poznan if you wouldn't make 10-12000 PLN gross per month (I guess his statements are just part of the old adage that Poland is booooming). There were many odd answers in that thread, so I thought I'd raise the question again, but this time be more precise in what I'm looking for, and I appreciate all input I can get, since it gives a broader perspective of how the conditions are.

Thanks for weighing in on what the wages are going at now. Especially since you are in the business yourself. 2700 gross sounds good. And, if I may say, I find your credibility to be superior to many other statements I've seen on the web.

I didn't know the unemployment rate was at only at that level. I find that rate pretty low actually. After reading that, I took a quick look at the rates on the countryside.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pomeranian_Voivodeship#Unemployment

Pretty fascinating that there such large differences within a voivodeship, although it's old numbers. I guess the rates around the city can smooth the process of recruiting.

About India. I've worked with over twenty different companies in the IT niche there, and I've worked with almost ten from the eastern parts of Europe - and with the fear of sounding chauvinist, my experience is that I'd prefer one hour of work in Europe compared to two hours in India any day. Although the Polish charge more per hour when it comes to IT work, they are actually cheaper if the task is complex, because they are often times much better at executing it. I might go for work in Dutch, Norwegian or Danish, so the Indians wouldn't have an upper hand when it comes to language.

But, anyways, since I'd go with at least one native speaker on the site at all times, the flight time and cost makes both India and SA less suitable.

Looking at a map I dug up of the whole nation, perhaps I'd be better off recruiting people from the West Pomeranian Voivodeship to come move to Gdansk for employment - if not the cost of living is significantly lower in Szczecin.

Quick correction, it the other thread it was said that living in cities like Poznan you'd need 8.000-10.000 PLN gross to be comfortable.
wawa_marek 1 | 129
23 Jul 2012 #18
mf.gov.pl/dokument.php?const=1&dzial=75&id=176016

Looking at a map I dug up of the whole nation, perhaps I'd be better off recruiting people from the West Pomeranian Voivodeship to come move to Gdansk for employment - if not the cost of living is significantly lower in Szczecin.

£ódź (Lodz) would be better choice for that kind of business.
OP W75 4 | 25
23 Jul 2012 #19
Brilliant wawa :-). That's just what I was looking for.

I've browsed around on the site, and (accoring to Google translate), it's a four hour test they have to take, and it consist of bookkeeping, tax laws and social security law, weighed at 130 points, 60 points and 40 points.

It brings one question to mind. Which education would be ideal for people to take to pass that test?

I'm asking since the KIRB/ACCA people would be over qualified for an accontant clerk job...
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,161
23 Jul 2012 #20
And graduates in such classes from cities like Bydgoszcz, Olsztyn, Szczecin or Lubilin might be a place to look. The reason you mentioned those cites, is that because they have high unemployment rates, or are especially poor?

Because these are large cities with many university level schools and at the same they are second tier agglomerations. Cities like Wrocła or Kraków are alreadu packed up the roofs with international companies...
wawa_marek 1 | 129
23 Jul 2012 #21
Which education would be ideal for people to take to pass that test?

studia.biz.pl/rachunkowosc/lodz/
OP W75 4 | 25
23 Jul 2012 #22
Because these are large cities with many university level schools and at the same they are second tier agglomerations. Cities like Wrocła or Kraków are alreadu packed up the roofs with international companies...

That explains a lot.

As there are four cities in Poland with direct flight routes, the cities being: Poznan, Krakow, Szczecin, Gdansk (so my options are somewhat limited). How would you rank those when it comes to expences?

studia.biz.pl/rachunkowosc/lodz/

Zdumiewający! As it's said in Polish. This is such great advice, I feel almost like I should pay :-).

Do you know how many years they have to go to such schools to pass the test? If I could get any of those people working for some 3750-4000 PLN gross per month, it would be just perfect.
wawa_marek 1 | 129
23 Jul 2012 #23
Do you know how many years they have to go to such schools to pass the test?

People with 2nd level of University education (studia magisterskie) in accounting do not need to pass exams.

If I could get any of those people working for some 3750-4000 PLN gross per month, it would be just perfect.

praca.wp.pl/title,Ile-zarabiaja-nasi-ksiegowi,wid,13164811,wiadomosc-kariera-zarobki.html
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
23 Jul 2012 #24
The big question is, whom would they lack behind? Journalists? Teachers? Nurses? Pharmacists? Most accountant clerks?

Generally speaking in Poland, you need a Masters degree to be considered in any "office" job. Hence - someone who only has (as you say) a short tertiary education will be at a significant disadvantage if they want to seek a career in an office-based job. So - yes - they'll be worse off compared to journalists, teachers, pharmacists, accountancy clerks, etc.

Since it's me who would give both the safe job and the short tertiary education, I really don't see the point of stating «the problem is that "people look for post-qualification service"».

The thing is that no-one will believe you when you say the job is safe. Combine this with a poor (by Polish standards) education, and you're simply not going to attract people who will be capable of learning a language and working in it within a year. Anyone who is in any way capable will simply not be interested in working for you, unless they can't actually afford to educate themselves.

Looking back at that thread I can see that delphiandomine stated quite clearly that you would not be «comfortable» with living in cities like Poznan if you wouldn't make 10-12000 PLN gross per month (I guess his statements are just part of the old adage that Poland is booooming).

Being comfortable for a foreigner has little to no relation to the expectations of young graduates in Poland. And 12000 gross a month is still only around 7500PLN netto - which for a foreigner expecting a good life of wining and dining, is really not that much money.

What you're proposing is perfectly fine for a young graduate, however. You won't get the best, but then it's not a job for the best really, is it?

2700 gross sounds good.

But you do realise that salary isn't the be-all and end all in Poland? Many young people are looking specifically for an employer who will offer a permanent work contract - and these are a licence for employees to screw over employers.

perhaps I'd be better off recruiting people from the West Pomeranian Voivodeship to come move to Gdansk for employment

Anyone who is in any way capable will already be in the big cities.

How would you rank those when it comes to expences?

Szczecin will be cheaper than the rest. Poznan and Gdansk will be more or less equal (though unemployment is only 4% in Poznan) and Krakow will be more expensive. You'll also have considerable opposition in Krakow when it comes to recruitment.

If you're ever in Poznan, give me a shout and I'll be happy to go over all this stuff with you (about contracts, in particular - these are a minefield) :)
OP W75 4 | 25
23 Jul 2012 #25
W75: Do you know how many years they have to go to such schools to pass the test?
People with 2nd level of University education (studia magisterskie) in accounting do not need to pass exams.

This just keeps getting better and better. Thanks a lot for the link. If the median is 3300 PLN it means that our offer would be lucrative compared with the mainstream (big smiles). I would really work to make the workplace as pleasant and positive as possible if/when I would decide to give it a go, and affording to give a salary slightly above the norm contributes to just that.

Perhaps we should buy advice by the hour from you when we're ready to roll ;-) It's a huge process really, since we've got to first get investors, but in the next or the year after I guess all is set to go.

Hmmm. I guess 2nd level and masters degree are the same stuff. Do you think the norm is to take only a couple of years and then the test, or to take five years and skip the testing? Five years seems a bit long - and I am a bit worried the 2nd level people would demand higher wages than we could afford.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
23 Jul 2012 #26
Do you think the norm is to take only a couple of years and then the test, or to take five years and skip the testing? Five years seems a bit long - and I am a bit worried the 2nd level people would demand higher wages than we could afford.

For anyone reasonable, the norm will be 5 years - with figures of up to 50% of young people in university-level education, they can't afford to miss it.

But I wouldn't worry too much about them demanding higher wages - first jobs in Poland always pay very badly. If you can go to 3700PLN/month gross - then you can easily get good graduates for that price. I could probably send you a few people if that was on the table :)

It's worth pointing out - while a Masters degree might be excessive by Western Europe norms, it's normal here. Teachers tend to have it as standard, for instance.
OP W75 4 | 25
23 Jul 2012 #27
@delphiandomine. About post #31. I don't like what you're implying, as most of what you write is based on the premise that I might end up screwing someone over. And if, God forbid, something went a rye, it's not like someone who've worked some years for me, and made more money than the industry standard, couldn't just pick up their books again if it didn't work out. But enough about that, I think we both know each others positions, and I don't think going to lengths about the «chances it'll go a rye/safety net if it does» discussion would bear any fruits.

Thanks to wawa_marek, we can just skip the whole shebang, since I'll most likely end up employing people who has some tertiary bookkeeping education to being with.

Teachers are obliged to have a bachelor here at home, but even those studying for the ACCA equivalent have two years of non-bookkeeping topics, and one year of bookkeeping topics before they begin as trainees. Delphiandomine, I really don't see why you find it necessary to go through five years of learning to do normal bookkeeping as a clerk.

We'll this would be built to last, so what I'd worry about is the long term salary expectations. If it was only a "beginners job" then there's no point at all, so the beginners salary isn't really relevant. The thing I could afford would be around 3765 PLN and rising with inflation and a small yearly raise from that. If I got stuck with some overeducated person, wanting to do «something more fit for their [high] education» I would really be setting myself up for a trap, as chances are he/she would begin with endless demands since they've got such and such education. I can see that day coming.

I would only be interested in those who are interested in bookkeeping as a job for life, or at least for a very long haul.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
23 Jul 2012 #28
I don't like what you're implying, as most of what you write is based on the premise that I might end up screwing someone over.

Actually, quite the opposite. Polish employees (especially recently graduated females) are notorious for screwing around once they get the permanent work contract. I could give you endless stories about where people have finally given a female employee a proper permanent work contract (without going into tedious amounts of detail - it is quite legal to employ someone for up to 12 years on a temporary contract!) - only for the female to get pregnant and use the ridiculously generous provisions in the Labour code available to them. Add to this a general tendency for women to see pregnancy as a sickness rather than a normal state of affairs - and you've got huge problems for small businesses.

You might have good intentions, but what about them?

Delphiandomine, I really don't see why you find it necessary to go through five years of learning to do normal bookkeeping as a clerk.

That's simply the way Poland is. Many mundane jobs, such as secretaries - all have a Masters level qualification. It's just the way it is, because the old system awarded a degree after 5 years and that was that - there was no such thing as a Bachelor level qualification. So - most business people were brought up in the old system, so they ask for a Masters degree for basic jobs because - well - that's all there was. So - people right now stay for 5 years at the university because everyone else is, and they don't want to put themselves at a disadvantage in the job market in years to come.

Put it this way - almost every single one of my friends has a MA/MSc level qualification. It sounds great, but it's absolutely normal here. Essentially - white collar job? Then you need a Masters.

We'll this would be built to last, so what I'd worry about is the long term salary expectations

cms will know better than me in this respect, but at least in Poland, I don't think you'll have much issue here. Obviously graduates from the best schools will demand progression and salary increases, but there are plenty of people out there who will be perfectly happy to do such a job. Forget what you know (Masters degree = $$$) - at least for now and for the next few years, a Masters degree is simply a way to open a door to white collar jobs.
OP W75 4 | 25
23 Jul 2012 #29
@delphiandomine

An ACCA (which most people on these boards thinks is overkill) is a three year education.
The fourteen syllabus are:
F1 Accountant in Business
F2 Management Accounting
F3 Financial Accounting
F4 Corporate and Business Law
F5 Performance Management
F6 Taxation
F7 Financial Reporting
F8 Audit and Assurance
F9 Financial Management
P1 Governance Risk & Ethics
P2 Corporate Reporting
P3 Business Analysis
At last two of these:
P4 Advanced Financial Management
P5 Advanced Performance Management
P6 Advanced Taxation
P7 Advanced Audit and Assurance

During those three years, over half of those courses aren't directly related to the bookkeeping tasks of a clerk. Yet you don't think any clerk should have less than a masters..... In Germany and Norway, learning to do the bookkeeping clerk tasks is a one year tertiary education, plus a short trainee period. And if those with a bachelor in accounting are overqualified (as people keep pointing out about the KIRB/ACCA folks), what are then people with a longer education?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,455
23 Jul 2012 #30
A Masters in Poland isn't overqualified, that's the thing. It's almost like a basic certificate of competence - as bizarre as that sounds. Other countries are much more laid back in this respect, but in Poland, they value letters and titles - even if it's totally worthless.

It is changing, but slowly. More to the point - in a country where everyone has a Masters, why bother hiring someone without?


Home / Law / Accounting in Poland, business venture
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.