The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / Law  % width posts: 40

Electronic signature for my Polish citizenship?


WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
20 Sep 2015  #1
I'm in the process of having my Polish citizenship done, and there are two ways to do it, one of which involves filling out a form online on epuap.gov.pl

I have filled out all the information I need, but now need to do a 'podpis elektroniczny' that seems more difficult that I had hoped. The only choice it gives me in order to make this signature is to do it via 'podpis certifikatem kwalifikowanym.' Does anyone have any idea of how to do these or how this works?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
20 Sep 2015  #2
I'm in the process of having my Polish citizenship done,

... only just now? What happened to the great patriot WP? :D (only teasing!)

It's a pretty straightforward process, but you need to be in PL unfortunately. What you do is fill out the form, and they confirm it via SMS. You put that code into the website, and it confirms your application. You then have to go to any Urzad Skarbowy or ZUS (and maybe some other places, but I'm not sure where) - and they verify your identity there. It's a quick process - my local tax office is walking distance, and the whole thing took me about 20 minutes, including walking to the tax office and back.

The only other way would be to get an electronic signature, but they're expensive and I think you have to be in PL to get one anyway. The EPUAP system is the "citizen-friendly" (yes, I know you won't believe that PO are making life easier...:P) version of electronic signatures.

Unfortunately, I think you'd probably have to go to the embassy/consulate to get the EPUAP verified - it looks like they can do it there - londyn.msz.gov.pl/pl/informacje_konsularne/informacje/

Aha, got it.

Osobiście udać się do jednego z wybranych urzędów:urzędu miasta/gminy, starostwa powiatowego, urzędu skarbowego, oddziału Zakładu Ubezpieczeń Społecznych, urzędu wojewódzkiego lub polskiego konsulatu by tam potwierdzić swoją tożsamość oraz zweryfikować dane osobowe z danymi wprowadzonymi do systemu

bip.krakow.pl/?dok_id=45442

In short - you need to fill the form in, confirm it via sms, print out the document they give you (if they give you one, I don't remember), then go to the consulate/embassy with your passport and they'll verify it for you.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
20 Sep 2015  #3
Okay thanks for that. It sounds complicated either way. I have a family member who is in Poland right now that I have given written and signed permission to go to the local 'gmina' for me (the gmina said it was fine). They handed over my British birth certificate that they needed and picked up a form that they have put in the post for me. I will fill it out when it arrives, pop in a photo and send it back so my family member can go once again with the filled out form. If I need to show up to collect the passport and PESEL I will.

I've already been to the London consulat who sent some forms I filled out to Warsaw to confirm my Polish identity. It's funny when I spoke to the lady and filled out my family background, she basically told me that I am a Polish citizen, I just need to make it official on paper.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
20 Sep 2015  #4
If I remember rightly, aren't you the child of Polish citizens? If so, you will be automatically. It's passed on regardless of what you do or don't do - Poland has a pretty straightforward citizenship law.

It's worth pointing out that even up until now, if you had committed a crime in Poland, you would've been treated as a Polish and not a British citizen regardless of what your passport said.
Harry
20 Sep 2015  #5
And he's been committing a crime every time he went through passport control into or out of Poland and showed Polish authorities his British passport.
Vincent 9 | 809 Moderator
20 Sep 2015  #6
Would you please explain what you mean by this comment Harry? Some readers might not understand what you mean.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
20 Sep 2015  #7
Yeah it makes no sense. I have a British passport as I was born there and was given one. I am also Polish and applying for a Polish passport. I thought it would be easier to do but I still have to fill out a lot of paperwork.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
20 Sep 2015  #8
Would you please explain what you mean by this comment Harry? Some readers might not understand what you mean.

Essentially, the law in Poland requires you to identify yourself to the Polish authorities (for example, border guards, or the tax office) using a Polish identity document if you are a Polish citizen. The Poles could be quite petty about it, so WP was lucky not to be caught.

I have a British passport as I was born there and was given one.

Actually, that's curious - were your parents British citizens at the time of your birth?

Being born in the UK isn't enough to get a passport.
Vincent 9 | 809 Moderator
20 Sep 2015  #9
I still can't see how he committed a crime using his British passport, when his official Polish citizen documents are not official yet.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
20 Sep 2015  #10
It doesn't matter - as his parents both have Polish citizenship, he would have been a Polish citizen automatically from birth. Essentially, Poland doesn't recognise (but doesn't prohibit) dual citizenship. So he would be obliged to use a Polish document when identifying himself to the Polish authorities, as he would be recognised as Polish in Poland. It's stupid, but it's the law.

I seem to recall that Americans are exempt from this though, on the basis of some treaty with the PRL.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
20 Sep 2015  #11
Ah so that's the mistake. At the time of the issue of my British Citizenship only my mother had a Polish passport. I don't know when she got her British passport but she has had one for a very long time now.

Anyway I thought when you were born in a country to parents who live there legally you are a citizen of that country.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
20 Sep 2015  #12
Aha, I understand. Yep, you would've been automatically a dual citizen at that point - your father would have passed on British citizenship and your mother Polish (and possibly British too?). Do you have a Polish last name?

Anyway I thought when you were born in a country to parents who live there legally you are a citizen of that country.

Mostly, no. In Europe, only Ireland does it that way. America does it too, although their interpretation is that anyone born there is an American citizen regardless of the status of the parents. It led to the somewhat distateful term "anchor baby" that some people use over there.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
20 Sep 2015  #13
I do indeed yes because my grandfather from that side was Polish and married a British wife (grandmother).
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
20 Sep 2015  #14
Yes, you were lucky not to be pulled up in Poland for not having a Polish ID before then. But from what I know, they tended to leave Europeans alone and instead picked on Canadians and Australians for some reason. It's a stupid, arbitrarily enforced law - but anyway, the good news for you is that you'll be able to pass Polish citizenship on to your children.

Another 15 months and I can apply...
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
20 Sep 2015  #15
Yeah it's something I've wanted to do for a while but not got around to. People often told me they think I should just have the citizenship because of what I was born in to, as did the lady at the consulate, but I don't have any papers to prove it. This is effectively what I am applying for.
Harry
21 Sep 2015  #16
I still can't see how he committed a crime using his British passport, when his official Polish citizen documents are not official yet.

All Polish citizens are required to identify themselves to Polish authorities always and only with Polish documentations. It's been discussed here in the past a number of times. What you see doesn't matter. When they want to be, Polish authorities can be very stubborn about this, I remember one time an American sailor who had left Poland when a baby was stopped for jaywalking, spoke to the police in pretty good Polish, so they asked him if he was Polish, he replied he'd been born there. So they arrested him for not having his documents with him. And then they wanted to charge him with draft dodging.

Yeah it's something I've wanted to do for a while but not got around to.

It's good that you finally have, otherwise you could have found yourself stuck in what some members of Polonia call the 'passport trap'.
Roger5 1 | 1,458
21 Sep 2015  #17
All Polish citizens are required to identify themselves to Polish authorities always and only with Polish documentation

What if you have dual citizenship?
Vincent 9 | 809 Moderator
21 Sep 2015  #18
All Polish citizens are required to identify themselves to Polish authorities always and only with Polish documentations

In the OP's case, how could he prove he was a Polish citizen if he had no papers to prove this at the time? A bit of a catch22 , don't you think?
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
21 Sep 2015  #19
From what I know, the general attitude is "tough", because as a Polish citizen, you're expected to have a Polish ID if you're in Poland and 18 or over. It's not so relevant nowadays, but people apparently found themselves stuck in Poland before Schengen as they weren't allowed to leave on non-Polish documents.

What if you have dual citizenship?

It's just not recognised by Poland. Tolerated, but not recognised.
Harry
21 Sep 2015  #20
What if you have dual citizenship?

Poland doesn't recognise somebody as having another nationality if they have Polish citizenship.

In the OP's case, how could he prove he was a Polish citizen if he had no papers to prove this at the time?

That's his problem. Being Polish comes with certain obligations as well as certain rights: one of those obligations is the obligation identify oneself to Polish authorities always and only with Polish documentation.

A bit of a catch22 , don't you think?

Actually no catch-22 at all; all a Pole needs to do is get Polish documentation and use that with Polish authorities. If he/she doesn't want to get it, he/she needs to stay outside Poland.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
21 Sep 2015  #21
But I am outside Poland for now. I don't live there, only go there once or twice per year. I have thought about living there and want to get my official citizenship in the event that I do. I still don't see how I can get in to trouble for turning up to Poland for a few weeks, having never lived there, with a British passport. It sounds like a load of nonsense. I think you're confused.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
21 Sep 2015  #22
Google "Polonia passport trap" or "Poland passport trap" and you'll read plenty about the issue.

It's down to the fact that Polish law requires Polish citizens to identify themselves as such.
Harry
21 Sep 2015  #23
But I am outside Poland for now.

If you want to come to Poland, you will need Polish ID or you are breaking Polish law. It really is that simple.

I still don't see how I can get in to trouble for turning up to Poland for a few weeks, having never lived there, with a British passport.

Polish law requires all Polish citizens to identify themselves to Polish authorities using Polish documents. You are a Polish citizen: you must identify yourself to Polish authorities using Polish documents. Oh, and you must be able to identify yourself when requested to do so, which means coming to Poland over an unguarded border (e.g. on the train from Berlin) will put you in a situation where you are also breaking Polish law.

I think you're confused.

I'm not at all interested in what you think: I know what the law here is.
Have a read: books.google.pl/books?id=pX7jGJ82EOIC&pg=PA164&lpg=PA164&dq="passport+trap"
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
21 Sep 2015  #24
Let me spell it out for you because it seems you can't grasp the idea.

How am I a Polish citizen IF I WAS BORN AND HAVE LIVED IN THE UK MY ENTIRE LIFE, AND HAVE A BRITISH PASSPORT, NOT A POLISH ONE?

You're not making any sense. So if my mother had not been speaking to me in Polish, I did not even know the language, did not have a Polish sounding name and went to Poland for a few days on holiday, I could get in to some serious trouble. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Or let me put this a different one

What you're effectively saying, Harry, is that if a Polish woman goes to England, marries a Brit, has a child there, calls him David, surname Johnson, does not teach him Polish, the child lives in the UK his whole life as a British citizen and then when an adult in his 20's, decides to go to Poland for a couple of days on a holiday with his friends, he could be in trouble for not having a Polish passport. Sounds like utter BS.
Harry
21 Sep 2015  #25
IF I WAS BORN AND HAVE LIVED IN THE UK MY ENTIRE LIFE, AND HAVE A BRITISH PASSPORT, NOT A POLISH ONE?

Because Polish law says you are, whether you want to be or not. Your mother is Polish and didn't renounce your Polish citizenship, therefore you are a Polish citizen, end of story.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
21 Sep 2015  #26
How am I a Polish citizen

Article 14. A minor acquires Polish citizenship by birth if:

1) at least one parent is a Polish citizen

Don't get angry WP - the law is what the law is.

I could get in to some serious trouble. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Yes, you could, if they could prove that you were a Polish citizen. In your case - a Polish last name and able to speak Polish would probably cause them to question your citizenship status.
dolnoslask
21 Sep 2015  #27
WielkiPolak

you are being wound up, yes in the old commie days the odd canadian or american could be given some grief if he has a polish name if the commies were having a political but up over something at the time.

Poland does not hassle its diaspora when they visit Poland, many of us brit poles with only a british passport have been traveling to poland for years with no hassle or problems.

I have had comments off immigration about how nice my polish name is, I have even explained that both mum and dad are polish, no problem.

Yes now that i have my polish passport I must identify myself to the authorities as a polish citizen,, again no problem...

Polish immigration is cool , they do a good job of keeping rubbish out of the country.
delphiandomine 83 | 17,626
21 Sep 2015  #28
decides to go to Poland, he could be in trouble for not having a Polish passport.

Effectively, yes. For instance, let's say that David Johnson has too much vodka and gets arrested for being drunk and disorderly. They ask him his parents names (normal in Poland), and they discover that his mother is called Danuta. They say "oh, David, your mother is Polish?" and he says "yeah". At that point, they would assume that he's a Polish citizen until proven otherwise. If they looked in the PESEL database and discovered that Danuta Johnson is still a Polish citizen, then under the law, David is too. So they would then ask him to produce Polish documents. If he can't produce such documents, he's broken the law a second time.

The law is selectively enforced, but it's still the law. You were actually lucky not to be pulled up on it before, especially with a Polish last name.

But don't worry, because you'll have a Polish ID soon and all will be well :)

Slight OT : what language do you speak at home?
dolnoslask
21 Sep 2015  #29
If you have not claimed your polish citizenship, and get drunk you WILL not face a second charge relating to your Polish citizenship documents etc.

Many brit poles have gone back to poland to see family got ****** at weddings funerals out clubbing and NO ONE has ever been in any trouble for not showing their polish document (which of course they have not got because they never applied for them) they just show their british passport get a bollocking and go home.
OP WielkiPolak 58 | 1,034
21 Sep 2015  #30
I'm more inclined to believe dolnyslask on this one. I've been to Poland many times and never has anyone looked at my passport funny, in so far as that I have a Polish name but it is a British passport. Even back in the day when there were border checks going from Germany to Poland and my passport was shown, nobody questioned me or any member of my family about it.

Anyway delph I'm surprised Poles are being so 'petty' about it nowdays, I thought things were amazing under PO and they didn't cause problems.


Home / Law / Electronic signature for my Polish citizenship?
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.