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Polish/EU Citizenship by Descent



OP amipolish8 1 | 24    
23 Feb 2017  #61

She's not incompetent, but she's not all that enthusiastic about our case. We've been taking forever to get all the paperwork and she doesn't think we're serious. Also, the fact that my dad doesn't really want to do this makes her think that nothing is going to come out of all this effort, because he has to get a Polish passport before we do. It's mostly me, my sister, my mom and a friend who's been helping us get all the documents. My dad is willing to sign all the necessary documents but he doesn't really want to get involved, so we have to do all the work.


johnny reb 12 | 2,041    
24 Feb 2017  #62

I don't understand why Poland makes it so difficult for people of Polish descent and Polish immigrants to come back to Poland.
These migrants have skills, social security money to pump into Poland's economy, and most who are interested are old and will have to pay for someone to take care of them in old age.

It seems silly to make it so difficult even after they have been vetted.
mafketis 16 | 4,249    
24 Feb 2017  #63

These migrants have skills, social security money to pump into Poland's economy

Well this OP doesn't seem very interested in pumping money into Poland's economy, getting an in to the EU seems to be the primary focus...
delphiandomine 77 | 15,462    
24 Feb 2017  #64

I don't understand why Poland makes it so difficult for people of Polish descent and Polish immigrants to come back to Poland.

They don't. If you knew anything about Poland, you'd know that Poland offers a very easy route for such people.

These migrants have skills, social security money to pump into Poland's economy, and most who are interested are old and will have to pay for someone to take care of them in old age.

They won't. They'll leave within months once they realise that it's not the land that they think it is. Poland is a tough place for older people, and it can be a very expensive place if you want to live somewhere nice.

Well this OP doesn't seem very interested in pumping money into Poland's economy, getting an in to the EU seems to be the primary focus...

Exactly, it's got nothing to do with Poland.
johnny reb 12 | 2,041    
24 Feb 2017  #65

If you knew anything about getting proper documentations in the United States you would understand how wrong you are.
Hiring health care workers in Poland at much less (almost 1/5th) then what you could in the U.S. could make life much better in Poland then in the U.S. for senior citizens.

The average total wage in Poland could not even pay rent in the U.S.
Living some place nice in the U.S. will cost you much more then you may even "guess".

getting an in to the EU seems to be the primary focus...

That was my primary focus also AND wondering why Poland didn't make it easier which would benefit their economy.

it's got nothing to do with Poland.

I merely replied that Poland should make it easier for decency of Polish migrants to the U.S. to obtain their Polish citizenship as it would be beneficial economically for Poland ALSO which has got everything to do with Poland.

The defense team rests.
delphiandomine 77 | 15,462    
25 Feb 2017  #66

Hiring health care workers in Poland at much less (almost 1/5th) then what you could in the U.S. could make life much better in Poland then in the U.S. for senior citizens.

Until of course, you have to deal with the things that make life much harder for them. Cheap health care is only part of the puzzle, as you also have to consider issues such as many Polish cities being covered in choking smog this winter. Winters can be long and harsh (snow at Easter is nothing unusual), city infrastructure is often incomplete or missing, and public bureaucracy can be intense if you're used to the Anglosphere way of doing things.

Of course, there are benefits like cheap health care, but who wants to live in choking smog in winter just for that?
johnny reb 12 | 2,041    
25 Feb 2017  #67

I heard things were a bit behind there once you get outside of Warsaw.

but who wants to live in choking smog in winter

I would go to Jamaica and live in clean Caribbean trade winds in the winters.
Archive Dweller    
25 Feb 2017  #68

There are probably millions of people in Polonia entitled to Polish citizenship. No repatriation office exists to assist them. The vast majority are ignorant or indifferent to their rights, and those who are interested in proving their citizenship get baffled by poor legal advice, and frustrated by the language barrier. It has been a very well kept secret that the Urząd Stanu Cywilnego in Warsaw holds the records for those with ancestors born in lost territories to the East. This includes documents over 100 years old, but not yet in the archives. (The books must have closed over 100 years ago before they are available in the archive.) Simply allowing people to order their genealogical records in English would be helpful.

Unlike ethnic Poles returning from the East who can get a Karta Polaka for residency, those who might claim citizenship are legally not entitled to residency. They must make the application for recognition of citizenship first, which can take years finding documents. Considering the history of Polish exiles, some residency should be possible while the documents can be found, and petitions are decided, etc.

Poland should make it easier for decency of Polish migrants to the U.S. to obtain their Polish citizenship as it would be beneficial economically for Poland ALSO which has got everything to do with Poland.

Considering the circumstances which compelled the Jews to leave Europe, those who can claim Polish citizenship have every right to do it. Those who come back from the annexed territories to the East can understand from the process more clearly that hostility towards the Jews came mainly from the Nazis and the non-Polish nationalists that allied with them. Even in the present day, due to that nationalism, Jews are considered to be a foreign people that the Poles brought in to their lands, and thus, not entitled to citizenship, except in Poland.
delphiandomine 77 | 15,462    
25 Feb 2017  #69

those who might claim citizenship are legally not entitled to residency.

You really need to learn more about Polish law. Those of Polish descent may apply straight away for permanent residency, which is often granted when there's clear proof that the family is Polish even if they don't have a right to citizenship. The Karta Polaka is a completely different device used when someone can claim Polish citizenship in theory, but cannot due to strict citizenship laws in the FSU.

If someone has a clear connection to Poland, such as Polish grandparents, they speak some Polish and they're active in Polonia organisations, permanent residency is normally granted without trouble.

hostility towards the Jews came mainly from the Nazis and the non-Polish nationalists that allied with them.

Like many of your previous attempts to blame incidents on minorities in the II RP, it's again quite incorrect. The Polish majority in the II RP was openly hostile towards Jews throughout most of that state's existence, which is one reason why it deserved to fall.
Archive Dweller    
25 Feb 2017  #70

Oh, so now the consulates are wrongly denying residency permits to Polish citizens because someone on an Internet forum says so! The explanation given is that a Polish citizen cannot apply for a residency permit. Yet, that person lacks a Polish passport, and is directed to submit a citizenship petition. Funny, the Polish lawyers I know, agree with that.

The Second Polish Republic ended and repealed anti-Semitic laws from the occupying powers. Only after Piłsudski's death did things change during the depression, but it was not the Poles serving in Nazi SS units. The attitude of the nationalist governments in the East speaks for itself through their citizenship laws. Frau Merkel hasn't invited Jews back into Germany either, but she is bringing in people who hate them.
delphiandomine 77 | 15,462    
26 Feb 2017  #71

Funny, the Polish lawyers I know, agree with that.

The consulates are directing people towards citizenship applications because they cannot grant residence permits. It needs to be applied for from within Poland, and consulates simply won't know about this provision as it's outside their competence.

Your Polish lawyers must be Ziobro's colleagues, because anyone with knowledge of Polish citizenship and residency law knows that the permanent residency/Karta Polaka mechanism is used to provide those of Polish descent a way to reside legally in Poland. In the OP's case, where Polish citizenship cannot be proved for various reasons, then the permanent residency application makes sense if they have a genuine connection to Poland.
Archive Dweller    
26 Feb 2017  #72

No, consulates cannot give a work visa, Karta Polaka, or anything else to a Polish citizen because he/she has the RIGHT to live, reside and work in Poland. The citizenship petition is the only option, to declare his/her rights with the government. The problem comes when someone is claiming citizenship through a grandparent, or great-grandparent, and there is some problem finding a document. It creates a classic catch-22. Proving citizenship is not easy, fast or cheap, and for someone who moved to Poland, it leaves them at a severe disadvantage where they might be exploited. Those who never had to prove that claim clearly don't understand.
delphiandomine 77 | 15,462    
26 Feb 2017  #73

No, consulates cannot give a work visa, Karta Polaka, or anything else to a Polish citizen because he/she has the RIGHT to live, reside and work in Poland. The citizenship petition is the only option, to declare his/her rights with the government.

You really are trying to argue a point that doesn't exist. Those without clear proof of Polish citizenship have no right to live, reside and work here, which is why the permanent residency through Polish descent option. It's the mechanism that's often used by Polish-Americans that retire to Poland.

Incidentally, consulates issue the Karta Polaka. You really ought to learn something about the laws in which you claim to understand.

The problem comes when someone is claiming citizenship through a grandparent, or great-grandparent, and there is some problem finding a document.

Which is why permanent residency is the option provided to such people that can prove that they are of Polish descent, but cannot prove it through paperwork. Incidentally, you cannot claim citizenship through a grandparent, as the line must be unbroken.

Those who never had to prove that claim clearly don't understand.

Those that actually understand the law know that the law provides for everyone of Polish descent as long as their ancestors had a link to Poland in some way. In the OP's case, permanent residency will be easily obtained to facilitate their legal stay in Poland.
Archive Dweller    
26 Feb 2017  #74

They made it easy for those who want to return from the East with Karta Polaka. These people speak another Slavic language, much of the vocabulary is the same, and have no difficulty learning Polish to the minimal level required. They are also desired as cheap labor to compensate for the Poles who went to the West.

Polonia in the West actually poses something of a threat to the Polish ruling elites, especially the PO crowd. They would prefer to import people who don't fit into traditional Polish society as a way of diluting it. If anyone who is ethnically Polish could come into Poland and start a business with little bureaucratic headache, own property and work, they would truly transform Poland out of the post-communist hangover state that has remained for too many years. So, there are plainly different rules from those returning from the West (either citizens or simply ethnic Poles) , vs. the East, (non-Polish citizens).

I don't understand why Poland makes it so difficult for people of Polish descent and Polish immigrants to come back to Poland.

delphiandomine 77 | 15,462    
26 Feb 2017  #75

Polonia in the West actually poses something of a threat to the Polish ruling elites, especially the PO crowd.

Amusing, but completely incorrect. As most people who are actually familiar with life in Poland know, the western Polonia find it difficult in Poland for many reasons, and so they pose zero threat to anyone in Poland. They start off enthusiastic, but their enthusiasm quickly wanes when they realise that Polish people think differently to them. The Eastern Polonia find it much easier to adapt, because the country simply resembles their home countries.
jon357 63 | 11,634    
26 Feb 2017  #76

the western Polonia find it difficult in Poland for many reasons

They rarely have it easy here and it's almost never what they expect. People who come under the Karta Polaka generally survive better however they are also seen as outsiders and there is quite a lot of suspicion, some justified, some not, from many people about them.
delphiandomine 77 | 15,462    
26 Feb 2017  #77

They rarely have it easy here and it's almost never what they expect.

Indeed, I know of one elderly couple who had quite the culture shock here. They got permanent residency through being Polonia and involved in Polonia organisations, but discovered very quickly that it was nothing like home. They managed to settle in the end, but they couldn't understand for months why "their people" were so rude and hostile towards them.
Ironside 43 | 7,942    
27 Feb 2017  #78

Indeed, I know of one elderly couple

Poland is no country for old men.

they couldn't understand

That the due here. If someone have some romantic notions and no research before settling is asking for a culture shock.
Poland is a country that is hostile towards its own people because it isn't Poland but country in transition from Soviet colony into an independent country.
jon357 63 | 11,634    
27 Feb 2017  #79

Poland is no country for old men.

I met a semi-retired couple from Michigan who came here. He's of Polish descent, she isn't. They've actually made a go of it, however I suspect they're financially well insulated and very adaptable. Definitely no conservatives either and didn't have a romanticised view of what they might find.
Archive Dweller    
28 Feb 2017  #80

Basically, anyone who doesn't have a serious criminal record who demonstrate sufficient financial ability to support him/herself can apply for residency in Poland, unless of course, he/she is a Polish citizen. In that case, residency cannot be granted since it is already a right. The relevant office might decline to process such a request if it believes that the application came from a Polish citizen. It gets the paperwork off their desk, and the applicant would be advised to file a citizenship petition.
delphiandomine 77 | 15,462    
28 Feb 2017  #81

Basically, anyone who doesn't have a serious criminal record who demonstrate sufficient financial ability to support him/herself can apply for residency in Poland

However, temporary residency is not the same as permanent residency.

and the applicant would be advised to file a citizenship petition.

In this case, establishing clearly that no such claim to citizenship exists is enough. In the OP's case, with considerable difficulty in proving beyond doubt that they are a Polish citizen, a claim for residency will certainly be considered.
btlmg    
5 Mar 2017  #82

Merged:

Help With Citizenship by Descent



Hello there,
I'm looking into if I'm eligible for Citizenship by Descent. My Great Grandfather, Jan was born in Ciesnowa, Wilno, Russian Empire in 1878. He was part of the Derewna Parish. He arrived in the United States around August 14th, 1906 and was married in New York on November 22nd, 1914. He never became a United States citizen and passed away on September 22nd, 1930. My Great Grandmother, Zuzanna, became a citizen March 18, 1932. My Grandfather John was born in 1926 in New York.
I have their marriage records, death records, Zuzanna's naturalization records, Jan's Military and Service Record from the Russian Empire and also a birth act for Jan.
I have been told my case is a harder one since they left before Poland created their citizenship laws in 1920. What do you think? Were they entitled to citizenship or were they only considered to have Polish origins? What other documents can I try to find to help my case? Thanks for your help, I appreciate your time!

Best,

Brian
Archive Dweller    
5 Mar 2017  #83

There are some very good online references to the applicable Polish citizenship acts-
polishcitizenship.pl/law/
(This one has good commentary in English on legal points easily confused.)
polish-citizenship-act-1920.pdf

Your particular case likely turns on whether or not your family had the right of return to the Russian Kingdom of Poland before Polish independence. The specific language at issue,

is enrolled or is entitled to be enrolled to books of permanent population of former Kingdom of Poland,

So as long as your grandfather is recognized as having had the right to be enrolled in the Russian ruled Kingdom of Poland before WWI though his father, then Polish citizenship is possible, provided all of the other documentation is in order, i.e., official documents with seals, apostilles, official court translations, etc. (Please read instructions above.) You may also want to get a copy of the 1921 Treaty of Riga to see if there is any benefit to you, but the 1920 statute likely codified the citizenship rights of the treaty. It is not an easy process, and you may need to find a good Polish lawyer who specializes in citizenship rights. Good luck!
Archive Dweller    
5 Mar 2017  #84

Another link is here, with a link to a .pdf that I can't copy:
en.yourpoland.pl/122_polish-citizenship-act-of-1920.html

After re-reading this, it is only your great-grandfather to whom the Polish Citizenship Act of 1920 applies, and not your grandfather because he was born after that. The Treaty of Riga is the following year. As I understand it, it gave people from the former Kingdom of Poland the right to choose their citizenship, if contrary to the new border. I would still advise having a look at it, since the 1920 law makes reference to international treaties, but the above section likely applies to your great-grandfather. So, once your great-grandfather's citizenship is found, it flows down from there to your family through the subsequent citizenship acts.

Again, there is not any official repatriation office, and the terminology used in official websites can be very confusing due to the English translations:
mswia.gov.pl/en/document/ways-of-acquiring-poli
According to the language of this website, you will be petitioning for a "confirmation of Polish citizenship or it loss". "Repatriation" is only available to those who were deported to the East and their descendants residing in "Armenia, Azerbaijan, Georgia, Kazakhstan, Kyrgyzstan, Tajikistan, Uzbekistan and Asian areas of the Russian Federation." Foreigners who have been residing in Poland, may" acquire" Polish citizenship, (naturalization), but not anyone who was already a Polish citizen by birth. This can easily confuse those who lack the necessary attention to detail to understand the complexity of Polish law. Be careful of the advise given by those who received citizenship by naturalization, who clearly don't understand the differences in the various processes.
btlmg - | 1    
5 Mar 2017  #85

thank you for your response, this information is very helpful!! Most people keep giving me the run around when I try to find out this stuff. I will continue to try to dig up information! thanks!!
amipolish9 - | 1    
18 Jun 2017  #86

Hi guys, it's me again. Thank you so much for all the information you provided. I recently spoke to my lawyer and she said we have to prove that my father is a legitimate child even though he was born after 1954 because my grandparents were naturalized in 1949 (before the act o 1951), which means that they lost their Polish citizenship in 1949. So basically we have to do everything based on the act of 1920.




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