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What are the Polish words of Mongol origin?


papagarth 3 | 20
17 Feb 2010 #1
this is , shall we say, a curiosity : I've learned that the Mongols left er, DNA samples in Poland, but are there words other than a variant of 'horde' borrowed from Mongolian to Polish ?
hague1cameron - | 85
17 Feb 2010 #2
papagarth ( this is , shall we say, a curriocity : I've learned that the Mongols left er, DNA samples in poland, but are there words other than a variant of 'horde' borrowed from Mongolian to Polish ?)

There is a Tatar minority of about 10 000 strong or less on Poland's eastern borders. In Poland they are Referred to as Tatars, and are of the Muslim faith. They have a long history of fighting as mercenaries for various Polish armies. Their original incursion into southern Poland took place in the 12 hundreds, when they practiced their horde activities.
gumishu 11 | 5,142
17 Feb 2010 #3
there is a bunch of words that came to Polish from Tatar and Turkic languages - most of these are of military sphere like bachmat (a horse, or some special breed of horses), buńczuk (symbol of military command), jarłyk, kary (the colour of a horse (black) - turkic for black
Piorun - | 658
17 Feb 2010 #4
Interesting article about borrowed words in Slavic languages from other cultures, you can read more about it here, [grzegorj.w.interia.pl/lingwpl/slowzap.html#z4] - Zapożyczenia w językach słowiańskich by Grzegorz Jagodziński

Look under "Zapożyczenia ałtajskie" this should give you some insight.

On a side note one of the first Europeans scholars to seriously study Mongolian language was a Pole Józef Kowalewski, author of Mongolian-Russian-French dictionary. Which reminds me, we should include him in famous Polish Russian section.
PLAT 1 | 23
3 Apr 2010 #5
"Which reminds me, we should include him in famous Polish Russian section." what do you mean, what section?
nomaderol 5 | 726
3 Apr 2010 #6
Tatars were a warrior tribe under Turk-Mongol empire in the past. Empire was under Mongol dynasty, but, warrior tribes were Turkics mostly. Tatars, one of them, aren't Mongols, but, Turkics. Yes, Turkic languages and Mongol languages are in same Ural-Altaic family, but, Tatar language

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tatar_language

is in Turkic language family

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turkic_languages

It is a propagand of western education that rename old Turkics as Mongols in Europe since days of Attilla Hun, another Turkic empire. Mongols were/are a small community in the East. Ask Tatar community anywhere including Poland. They speak a Turkic dialect.

buńczuk (symbol of military command), kary (the colour of a horse (black) - turkic for black

buncuk or boncuk in turkey turkish now and it has nothing to do with military. it means "bead." . kara = black.
OP papagarth 3 | 20
4 Apr 2010 #7
Thanks -but it's Altaic, only -no proven relation to Uralic - and has been considered seperate since the last quarter of the 20th c. - and there is no exclusive evidence that the same people have always been called Tatars -'Tatar' was appenged to all Mongol hordes, not Mongol to the Tatars - So, whether the Kipchak -Turks or some unknown group of Altaic people was originally meant is not known.

This is like the 'Macedonian' arguement, one which ancient Greek scholars, or at least one, would find laughable - since they knew none Greeks had been Hellenized, and would know that the Slavic Macedonians are just that.

Also true, in the sence of not knowing how to file them, linguisticly, are the Ancient Avars.
Ditto the Veneti and Antes -until they were clearly part of the Slavic peoples, we don't know for sure whether they spoke anything esle - there is really no evidence there-to.

What we do know of the Tatars, is they clearly were not Mongols, proper, but their enimies.
nomaderol 5 | 726
4 Apr 2010 #8
My claim (based on sources and daily life tatars I know of, many tatars here in turkey, half of a city is full of tatars) was based on linguistic approach when I was saying Tatars were Turkics. I checked the net and Polish Tatars too speak a Turkic dialect. Important basic words such as ana=mother, numbers, etc are same or very similar. Other than language difference, I dont consider any criteria about nation/race difference. (now, since I am writing these in English, I can be considered an English also.) Traditions of Tatars vary much from region to region as they are wide-spreaded from Europe to Middle Asia. In old days, like many other Turkic tribes, Polish Tatars too did services in Polish Armies. During Viena war, there were Tatars in Ottoman army and also in Poland army. It is said that they put a sign on their helmets not to confuse as the both Tatar soldiers were loyal to their armies.
OP papagarth 3 | 20
8 Apr 2010 #9
Sorry, your claim has no merrit. The language in the present to a group of people labled by others as Tatars is not proof of the language of people who called themselves Tatars about a thousad years ago, in what is probably now Chinese Central Asia - in fact, your arguement could be used to make you 'English', if you also spoke English, natively.

There are modern people called Avars, for example, yet they have nothing to do with the ancient Avars who invaded Europe.
What I'm saying is, stick to the known and proven facts, and, more to the point, the subject.
I'm glad to learn about Tatar words in Polish, but I asked about Mongol words.
Ozi Dan 26 | 569
8 Apr 2010 #10
but are there words other than a variant of 'horde' borrowed from Mongolian to Polish ?

Uhlan?
nomaderol 5 | 726
8 Apr 2010 #11
What I'm saying is, stick to the known and proven facts

Definition of Tatar will change depending on where you live in. If you live in Turkey, Tatar will be understood differently. Elsewhere, will be understood differently. In Russia, it is Muslim Mongols, similar to West sources. If you ask a panturkist professor, he will prove you all Tatars including Poland, Lithuanian, Finland tatars are Turkic. And, this theory will be objected by an anti-panturkist one. Main reason for Tatars being seperated from other Tatars is due to they used different languages and writing languages depending on where they have lived. For such things, find a very old person, especially a very old woman in a village who never went to school. Listen to her carefully. Since her language will carry 'tongueprints' of very old past, you can find the true history, true native language of Tatars. When I was talking with my grandmother (never went out of village) I learnt many words that nobody knows in today Turkey. Interestingly, I heard similar words from a Romanian (gagauze(gokoghuz) Turk last year. My highly educated Turkish fellow didnt understand him, but, I understood. So, languages written and spoken may confuse you as written things have been influenced due to politics. To understand who the Polish Tatars are, you need to find such a person and let her say some basic words like 'i, you, he/she/it, water, air, bread, mother, father, etc.' and check if they are similar to Turkic or Mongol.

Words in Polish may mislead you as many Turkic words (during Ottoman empire) entered Polish.

Here is a document written in 1924 written by a Polish of the day (given on Poland embassy in Ankara.)

ankara.polemb.net/index.php?document=197

Polonya, Türkiye ile sadece politik ilişkilerde bulunmayıp, ticari ilişkilere de girişmiş; Türkiye'den Polonya'ya çeşitli kumaş, halı, silah, eyer, yün, tütün, meyve ve mücevher gibi şeyler gelmiş ve bu ilişki yüzünden pek çok kimsenin bilmediği Türkçe kelimeler Polonya diline geçmiştir. Kar, kazak, karabela, kuntuş, kalem, pantolon, fasulye, yatağan, fincan, kestane ve benzeri...

Basically paragraph says: Poland and Turkey had not had only political relations, but, also trade relations (for centuries.) Traders brought many items such as textile, carpet, riffles, horse saddles, wool, tobacco, fruits, jewellery, etc. and because of these, some words that many dont know entered Polish language. Kar (profit), kazak (a kind of man cloth), karabela (ottomanish word. kara=black in turkish and bela=wrangler in arabic), kuntus = a kind of man cloth (kontos = a kind of woman cloth), kalem (ottomanish, arabic origin = pencil), fasulye = bean, yatagan = a kind of sword, fincan = coffee/tea cup, kestane = chestnut, etc etc. If you hear such words from Polish Tatars, you may think they are Mongol origin. Some of them are not even Turkic, but, Ottomanish (mixture of Turkic, Persian and Arabic as seen in "karabela" above.)
OP papagarth 3 | 20
9 Apr 2010 #12
I prefer professional linguist, in this case, Kenneth Katzner, "Languges of the World", et c. and J. Nemeth, Phd, translator for Tibor Halasi-Kun, "Turkish Grammar" - along with the work of several renouned historians, anthropologists, et c.

The western Mongols are called Kalmyk.
All officially labled Tatars are part of the group kown as Kipchak Turks -all descndants of the Golden Horde are Kipchaks. Osmali Turkish is not the same as modern Turkish, as you noted, much of the language is outdated in Turkey.

Anyway, the question is not Tatar, but Mongol.
Baydlag - | 2
7 May 2011 #13
Paragarth

Horde or Orda is exactly a mongolian word which is entered to europian languages. Also russians are using this word as Orda.
Horde or Orda means Palace in Mongolian. In a Mongolian legend Batu Khan used a Golden tent (Mongolians calling it Altan asar or Altan Ord) in the celebrating party for victory over Hungary and Polish. That tent was captured from Hungarian King.

So Batu named his new empire as Altan Orda or Golden Horde.
.
PolskiMoc 4 | 324
7 May 2011 #14
this is , shall we say, a curriocity : I've learned that the Mongols left er, DNA samples in poland, but are there words other than a variant of 'horde' borrowed from Mongolian to Polish ?

What DNA samples?
Mongolians are Haplogroup C. Poles are 0 percent Haplogroup C.

If there are any C Haplogroups in Poland it is not statistical & just seldom.


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