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'stary pryk' - Translation Check - person from a story speaks Polish


HGoshorn    
16 Feb 2017  #1

Czesc.

I am writing a story, and one of the characters speaks Polish and here and there makes use of it. I am attempting to translate the lines on my own, but I lack confidence in my rendition of Polszczyzna. I would appreciate it someone could look at these lines and tell me if it sounds like a native speaker of Polish, or is at least correct.

"W jakim jezyku jest to, stary pryk? Mie mogl sie nawet domyslac, zaloze sie! Iloma jezykami mowisz? Ledwo mozna poradzic sobie z Angielski, tak jak jest! Zaloze sie pidzyn Angielski jest wszystko co masz! Zaloze sie potrzebujesz slownika aby poradzic sobie z Lekarzem Seuss! Kiedy ktos krzyczy, 'Wyslij w klaunow!' wiesz dzwonia do ciebie!"

Which should mean:

"What language is this, you old fart? You could not even guess, I bet! How many languages do you speak? You can barely cope with English, as it is! I bet pidgin English is all you have! I bet you need a dictionary to cope with Doctor Seuss! When someone shouts, 'Send in the clowns!' you know they're calling for you!"

She is ridiculing someone who has angered her.

Thank you for any assistance.


WhirlwindTobias - | 70    
16 Feb 2017  #2

Interestingly, "pryk" has a much less friendly connotation in English ;)

I can't help you however, sorry.
OP HGoshorn    
16 Feb 2017  #3

Well, Friend, there is nothing friendly in what she was saying to the person to whom she was speaking at the time :). She was very, very angry at the man.

Unfortunate, though, but thank you for being kind enough to at least make a reply.
WhirlwindTobias - | 70    
16 Feb 2017  #4

Hmm, well perhaps it might be worth knowing for future reference that in English we use "old fart" as a term of endearment. Like a Grandmother to her Husband if he overcooked the pasta.

In this case the English word "Prick" which I was referring to would be more apt. It doesn't help your OP but I don't like leaving stones unturned.
mafketis 16 | 3,892    
16 Feb 2017  #5

"W jakim jezyku jest to, stary pryk? Mie mogl sie nawet domyslac, zaloze sie!"

Not a native speaker, but maybe something more like....

Jaki to język, stary dziadu? Nie możesz się nawet domyśleć, założę się! Ile języków w ogóle znasz? Ledwo poradzisz sobie z angielskim i to tylko złamanym! Chyba potrzebny ci słownik do Muzzy! Myślałeś, że Głupi i głupszy to twoja biografia!

(literally: What language is that you old geezer (US meaning only)! You can't imagine I bet. How many languages do you even know? You barely manage english and that's broken. You probably need a dictionary for Muzzy (once popular english course for small children) You thought Dumb and Dumber was your biography.

The muzzy and głupi i głupszy references are a bit dated but more plausible for a Polish speaker (Dr Seus has never really been a thing here and I don't think many people know the song title).
OP HGoshorn    
16 Feb 2017  #6

Well, that matters on how "old fart" is spoken. It can be a term of endearment if spoken in the correct tone, but it can be pejorative when spoken in a pejorative tone. She was speaking in a most pejorative tone ...

We can do the same with other words, like "bastard" as well. The same is true of the infamous N-word: it was not always held to be inherently derogatory; it mattered on how it was spoken originally. Nowadays, however, it is held to be about the most unspeakable word in the entire English lexicon, no matter how one says it. I expect within a few years the utterance of that word will carry the summary death penalty with a special exception to the 8th Amendment "cruel and unusual" clause. And, BTW, that's just an observation: I do not refer to people in such terms.
mafketis 16 | 3,892    
16 Feb 2017  #7

how "old fart"

pryk doesn't mean 'fart' in the.... bodily function sense, it just means something like "old man" and is either insulting or joking, depending on who's using it when.

Traditionally it's mostly (always?) used with 'stary' (I've never heard it used by itself, though some people might)
OP HGoshorn    
16 Feb 2017  #8

Thank you, Mafketis.

As far as the Doctor Seuss reference goes: the main character is a Kentuckian speaking to an Alabamian. The Kentuckian is ridiculing the Alabamian. Neither is a native of Poland, but the Kentuckian has a friend whose family is half-Polish, and she picked up Polish young because of that friend of hers. She speaks Polish as easily as she speaks her native language of English, and I describe her as sounding like a Pomeranian when she speaks Polish, since her friend's Polish grandparents were Polish Pomeranians. But, since both characters are from the U. S. the reference to Doctor Seuss is preferable.

"Zaloze sie": literally, does that mean, "I bet you ..."?

It is probably beyond me, attempting to do the translation of Polish on my own. The Latin is within my knowledge, but my grasp of Polish is severely limited. I should probably wait until I can afford to pay someone for a Polish translation, as I will likely butcher it rather thoroughly.
NoToForeigners 5 | 530    
16 Feb 2017  #9

The muzzy and głupi i głupszy references are a bit dated but more plausible for a Polish speaker

Lol. Nobody says that.
HGshorn wait for expert Lyzko. His Polish is perfect and he'll translate it in the only true way. ROFL
OP HGoshorn    
16 Feb 2017  #10

Okay, should he crop up :)

In return for someone checking and correcting my Polish translations, I would be willing to check anything the person helping wishes to render in English for correct grammar and form. I cannot directly translate Polish into English, but I can look at your translation and help you get it right in English: the exact help I need, in other words. The amount of Polish with which I am dealing amounts to three paragraphs, not even a full page all told.
mafketis 16 | 3,892    
17 Feb 2017  #11

Newer version: Jaki to język, dziadu? Chyba nie masz zielonego pojęcia! Ile języków w ogóle znasz? Ledwo poradzisz sobie z łamaną angielszczyzną. Założę się, że potrzebny ci słownik do Doktora Seusa! Chyba myślaleś, że piosenka 'Przyślij klaunów' to wezwanie pomocy!'

I changed the last to "you probably thought that "Send in the Clowns" was a call for help"

pay no attention to notoforeigners, he's a (probably paid) troll. If he isn't being paid, that just makes him all the more pathetic...
Ziemowit 8 | 2,240    
17 Feb 2017  #12

pay no attention to notoforeigners, he's a (probably paid) troll.

With this I can more or less agree.

Your last version is correct, Maf. However, I'm not referring to:

Założę się, że potrzebny ci słownik do Doktora Seusa! Chyba myślaleś, że piosenka 'Przyślij klaunów' to wezwanie pomocy!'

since I am not able to grasp the American culture context of these sentences fully (but I don't like the 'do' in 'do Doktora Seusa', it should perhaps be 'od' or without any preposition; also I'd prefer 'przyprowadź klaunów', but I don't know the song really).

'Jaki to język, stary pryku?' would be OK and it is even more offensive than 'stary dziadu'. For a more natural effect I would say: 'Ile ty w ogóle znasz języków?' Also, I'd change the perfective mode into the imperfective one in 'Ledwo poradzisz [--> radzisz] sobie z łamaną angielszczyzną'.
mafketis 16 | 3,892    
17 Feb 2017  #13

(but I don't like the 'do' in 'do Doktora Seusa', it should perhaps be 'od' or without any preposition

It means "in order to understand books by Dr Seus" if that helps (I was thinking of an abbreviation 'do czytania książek Dr'a Seusa). Dr. Seus wrote a bunch of books that American kids love. I'm not sure why that's an insult, Dr Seus is actually kind of sophisticated linguistically with lots of internal rhyme (roast beast is a feast I can't stand in the least) and he created a bunch of words for his books (grinch, pamploonas, bissledinx etc).

Fun with Dick and Jane books would be a better example of a very simple childrens book.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dick_and_Jane
NoToForeigners 5 | 530    
17 Feb 2017  #14

Założę się, że potrzebny ci słownik do Doktora Seusa!

ROFL.

It means "in order to understand books by Dr Seus" if that helps (I was thinking of an abbreviation 'do czytania książek Dr'a Seusa).

ROFL again.

Stop misinforming people. It's always "od".
OP HGoshorn    
17 Feb 2017  #15

Mafektis, you are correct the Fun with Dick and Jane is simpler English, but it was Doctor Seuss that popped into her head at the time.

I tend to stay true to the character and his or her - her, in this case - thoughts, because it is not me speaking. Thank you for the assistance. I'm going to wait until I can afford a professional translation to avoid annoying others with my work and get it done when I can pay for it.

Why, oh why, couldn't she have just stuck to Latin? I know how to translate that one :)
Ziemowit 8 | 2,240    
17 Feb 2017  #16

It means "in order to understand books by Dr Seus" if that helps (I was thinking of an abbreviation 'do czytania książek Dr'a Seusa).

In that case I would suggest: Założę się, że potrzebny ci jest słownik do czytania Seussa. I would omit 'Doktora' in such a phrase since phrases like 'czytać Joyce'a' or 'czytać Sienkiewicza' (using the surnames only) would be common in everyday Polish. Surprisingly, if I were to use the original sentence as proposed by HGoshorn (his version was very good!), then yes, I would use 'Doktor Seuss': Założę się, że potrzebujesz słownika, aby móc poradzić sobie z Doktorem Seussem! This is because 'czytać doktora' sounds very clumsy in Polish, whereas 'poradzić sobie z doktorem' sounds OK.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Ale, ale, zdaje mi się, że nasz czcigodny autor "odpuścił" sobie w międzyczasie zmagania z tym fragmentem i zamierza czekać na profesjonalne jego przetłumaczenie. No cóż, próżny był nasz trud...

Why, oh why, couldn't she have just stuck to Latin? I know how to translate that one :)

Byłoby niezwykle interesujące przeczytać tłumaczenie tego fragmentu na łacinę...
PS084 - | 8    
17 Feb 2017  #17

Hi,
I am native and this is ok:

Jaki to język, stary pryku? Chyba nie masz zielonego pojęcia! Ile języków w ogóle znasz? Ledwo radzisz sobie z łamaną angielszczyzną. Założę się, że potrzebny ci słownik, aby sprostać Dr Seussowi! Kiedy ktoś krzyknie 'Przyślij klauny' to wiesz, że to ciebie wołają.

'Przyślij klauny' = can stay in original form, in English 'Send in the clowns!'.
NoToForeigners 5 | 530    
17 Feb 2017  #18

@PS084
Wonder where the girl is from. I mean which country she resides in and for how long because no one in Poland would say the stuff about clowns. ;)
PS084 - | 8    
17 Feb 2017  #19

I've got no idea why someone mentioned about clowns...
I suppose it recalls to Barbra Streisand song 'Send in the clowns' which is unfortunately unpopular in PL.
But still it looks weird... no idea what an author wanted to say.

I would say in this way:
"Kiedy ktoś krzyknie baranie to wiesz, że to ciebie wołają"
baran = ram; is a synonym of stupidity

or simply solution :
"Kiedy ktoś krzyknie głupcze to wiesz, że to ciebie wołają"
głupcze = fool

or
"Kiedy ktoś krzyknie stary głupcze to wiesz, że to ciebie wołają"
old fool; because in the beginings she said "stary pryku" so we can continue with old...
mafketis 16 | 3,892    
18 Feb 2017  #20

I suppose it recalls to Barbra Streisand song 'Send in the clowns'

She was actually like the fourth or fifth major recording artist to record it. My preferred version is by Judy Collins (or the original by Glynis Johns).
OP HGoshorn    
18 Feb 2017  #21

NoToForeigners,

The girl is from East Kentucky, in the U.S.. But, she is in northern Alabama during the story. In the scene in question she had attempted to apologize to her half-cousin's neighbor for being rude to him a few days prior while she was in a bad mood. He insulted her several times and did not allow her to apologize. When she finally lost her own temper she began ridiculing the man, first in her native language: Appalachian English, then in French and then in Polish, then back to English. She also used some Classical Hellenic (Greek) and Latin. The girl has a genius level IQ and spoke four languages at 13, including her native language of Appalachian English. Appalachian English is an American English Dialect encountered in the Appalachian Mountains, and all English speakers can understand it. So, it is not a Pole speaking, but a Kentuckian.

The reference to clowns was that she was calling him a clown.

Thank you, PS084. Would you endeavor to translate another paragraph? The next was proving more frustrating for me than the first :)
The character speaking is a Kentuckian, so her cultural references tend to be from the United States and Kentucky rather than Poland. For example: in the next paragraph "Moby Dick" is mentioned because she is ridiculing the man for being chubby.
NoToForeigners 5 | 530    
18 Feb 2017  #22

@HGoshorn
Ah so she's not Polish. Ok then. That explains the clowns reference.
PS084 - | 8    
19 Feb 2017  #23

yep, give me more. I can help you.
OP HGoshorn    
19 Feb 2017  #24

@PS084: Well, thank you, Sir. If there is anything I can do in return that is within my power, it will be done.

"Oh, yes; and you best stay away from any oceans, lest some whaler mistake you for Moby Dick and you get a harpoon in your fat ass! Not that you would feel it through all that blubber back there! And, whatever you do: don't jump or run! California will be shaken off the continent right into the Pacific Ocean! Either that, or the Earth might crack open like an egg! And, God! I hope you never jump into the Pacific Ocean! The poor Japanese! They would get swept right off their islands from the resulting tsunami and up right smack dab in the middle of China! The whole lot of them! Oh, and the poor Hawaiians! They would get a ride all the way to Australia! When you walk, your stomach does a tango with your ass!

"And, by the way, you just got ridiculed in Polish, you incomparable dumbass!"

I hope that is not too much. I have only one more paragraph of Polish to translate, a bit longer than that one.

If you e-mail to me your real name at goshorn.h@mail.com I will mention your name in the Author's Note I have to write for the story, giving you credit for the Polish translations.

Thank you.

Oops: typo

The poor Japanese! They would get swept right off their islands from the resulting tsunami and end up right smack dab in the middle of China!

I left out the word "end" in "end up". I hate it when I do that.

How does this sentence sound:

Zaloze sie pidzyn Angielszczyzna jest wszystko co masz!

Also, above you abbreviated Dr, but in the story I cannot use the abbreviated form since the girl is speaking. Since I have learned that in Polish, just like in Latin, an adjective must agree with the noun it modifies in Case, Number and Gender would the form be: Doktoremu? I note that the form -owi is the Dative, singular masculine.

And, if you do not want your name mentioned in the Author's Note, that is not a problem. I was only offering to give credit where credit is due. I could mention you not at all, or by your screen name, PS084. That would all be entirely up to you.

In that sentence, would

Zaloze sie pidza Angielszczyzne jest wszystko co masz!

be more correct?
mafketis 16 | 3,892    
19 Feb 2017  #25

Zaloze sie pidza Angielszczyzne

No, and you're a switched letter pair (dz) away from one of the worst obscenities in the language.... turn back before it's too late!

I would suggest łamana angielszczyzna because pidgin isn't a commonly referred to concept in Poland and "broken" language is. If you're bound and determined to use pidgin English no matter what, then the form would be.... pidżynowa angielszczyzna (sounds awkard to me but I found it online) (nb language names are not capitalized in Polish).

Also with Doctor Seuss both are nouns
OP HGoshorn    
19 Feb 2017  #26

Well, I would prefer to stick with "pidgin" because the man she is ridiculing did not speak broken English, but was prone to some bad grammar and misunderstood words (such as when he accuses her of trying to "denude" him when he meant "delude" ...).

OK, seeking clarification for my own understanding: I would think that English would be the object of the verb, because that is what he has. Therefore, I would think the word Angielszczyzna would be Accusative in form, and that the word describing it would therefore also be in the accusative-singular-feminine adjective form. The form you are suggesting, Angielszczyzna, would be either nominative-singular or instrumental-singular (in Latin that would be the ablative of instrument). I do not understand the -owa suffix on pidzyn. The reason I rendered it as "pidza" was because I thought the last syllable would be replaced in the accusative form, thus pidzyn to pidza.

It is also unnecessary to capitalize language names in English, but I tend to do so anyway out of a sense of respect as I feel it represents in a sense the people who speak it.

I just looked up the word you implied ... yes, that is a bad word :)
mafketis 16 | 3,892    
19 Feb 2017  #27

did not speak broken English, but was prone to some bad grammar and misunderstood words (such as when he accuses her of trying to "denude" him when he meant "delude" ...)

Now to me (a linggggguuiiissst) that sounds more like broken English than pidgin (a very different kind of animal)

acc pidżynową angielszczyznę (although 'mieć' sounds wrong in this context, mówić sounds better in which case change the -ę into -ą)

It is also unnecessary to capitalize language names in Englis

I learned (many decades ago in elementary school in the US of A) that it is necessary to capitalize language names in English.

I tend to do so anyway out of a sense of respect

Language names are not capitalized in Polish. There's nothing respectful about making a deliberate mistake.
OP HGoshorn    
19 Feb 2017  #28

I am not arguing with you, and everything I write is meant to be understood to be polite in manner and tone. But, you should not think that because I am unfamiliar with Polish that my grasp of my native language of English is poor. In fact, I have a deeper grasp of English than most others. I understand English all the way back to Shakespeare, and can translate even Old English. Most modern English speakers have difficulty coping with the language from a scant 100 years ago; I do not. For example: I know what the "Establishment Clause" of the 1st Amendment to the U. S. Constitution actually means and that it is completely misinterpreted by almost everyone alive today. I know that The Raven by E. A. Poe was never meant to be scary, because I understand what I am reading when I read it. I am also one of the few people that know "H" is not a consonant, and that all nouns and adjectives in the Modern English language that begin with H should be proceeded by the article "an", not "a" since they actually begin with the vowel following the aspiration (H is an aspiration). Now, that is not so in Old English, because there were words back then where the aspiration was followed by a consonant, such as Hraefn, Hlaford or Hrothgar (raven, lord and the last is a given name).

School teachers are not always correct: I had to correct my teachers on occasion in school, such as when my 8th Grade history teacher gave a garbled account of the Battle of Marathon that included events that had actually happened at the Battle of Thermopylai one war later (BTW: I used the Hellenic spelling on purpose). It was even worse when I attended a semester of college a few years ago. The name of a language is an object or abstract entity and is not required to be capitalized.

The primary implication of broken in this context means someone who is interspersing the words of his/her native language with a foreign language he/she is speaking. "Spanglish", for example, is broken Spanish: someone throwing English words into Spanish where the speaker does not know the correct Spanish word. Pidgin can have that same implication, but its primary sense is a low-grade form of a language using poor or simple grammar and dialect. But, "broken" would not be incorrect: you are correct that it can be applied here, as well.

I was - and am - but seeking clarification so that I understand what I am doing. For example, the form of the word pidzyn I find in the dictionaries I have used do not include the -owa form, so I am trying to understand wherefrom that comes. Would I be correct to understand that to be added to the word when it is used in forms other than the nominative? Thus:

Pidzyn / Pidzynowi (nom. sing. / plur.)
Pidzynowego / Pidzynowych (acc. sing. / plur.)
etc.

LOL. This all got something stuck in my craw, and it has to come out.

I have a book on Latin entitled The Everything Learning Latin Book by Richard Prior, PhD. In that book, while explaining to the reader the concept of the different declensions of nouns and adjectives in Latin he explained that English also has different declensions of nouns, just like Latin. I will admit that until I had read that book - many years ago now, BTW - I had never known that. He explained that there are, in fact, 6 regular declensions of noun in English. In Latin one identifies the declension of a noun by the genitive-singular form of the word, but in English it by their plural forms. "Car", for example, is a 1st Declension Noun: its plural form is "Cars". But, "Church" is a 2nd Declension Noun because its plural form adds -es: Churches. And, so it goes. However, after showing this, he asks why we don't live in "hice". He asks that because the words "mouse" and "louse" are 6th Decl. Nouns with a plural form of "mice" and "lice". What about "house"? Why is not that word a 6th Decl. Noun? Why is the plural of "house", "houses" instead of "hice"? One would think that if mouse becomes mice, then house should become hice. Yet, it does not.

Are you scratching your head? :) So was Doctor Prior. It is clear to me he did not know the answer to his question.

But! I do.

The words mouse and louse have one thing in common outside of being 6th Decl. Nouns: they begin with a consonant. On the other hand: house begins with the vowel "O" preceded by an aspiration. I calculate that is the answer to Doctor Prior's conundrum.

OK, that's out of my craw now ... I feel so much better.
mafketis 16 | 3,892    
20 Feb 2017  #29

the form of the word pidzyn I find in the dictionaries I have used do not include the -owa form, so I am trying to understand wherefrom that comes

It's the adjective form

pidżyn - noun

pidżynowy - adjective (msc sg nom)

pidżynowa - adjective (fm sg nom)

Polish dictionaries leave out many noun-to-adjective derivations if they are regular and the meaning is the same (as is the case here).
OP HGoshorn    
20 Feb 2017  #30

Ah, thank you. It is the adjectival form. On-line dictionaries do leave much to be desired, and that is why I do not entirely trust them.

I am still leaning toward rendering the phrase in the accusative - pidzynowa Angielszczyzne. Is there a reason why Polish would render it in the nominative? In Latin it would definitely be in the accusative: ANGLICAM MALAM (which literally means "bad English", since there is no Latin word for "pidgin").

Disregard that question, I just noted you rendered it as accusative above.

On-line translations are unreliable. Some years ago I was dealing with an idiot who was pretending he knew Latin when it was immediately apparent to me he did not. In his first insulting post all of the verbs in his sentence - there were 2 or 3 of them - were in the infinitive form and all of his nouns and adjectives were in the nominative form. The only reason I was able to make hide or hair out what he was saying was that I speak English: had I been a Roman with no grasp of English it would have been gibberish. It was comical for me from beginning to end. I eventually realized the guy was using Google-Translate or some such because I have seen such systems produce the exact kind of gibberish he was producing, and he unintentionally confirmed my suspicion a few posts later.

BTW: I did not start the insulting, he pounced on me out of the blue :) Someone had made a response to a post of mine that had nothing to do with anything I had said, and I had said my usual reply to such a thing: NON.COGITAS.ERGO.NON.ES! Which means: You do not think, therefore you are not. (a play on Rene Descartes' COGITO.ERGO.SVM). Seeing that, this guy pounced. It was funny ... for me, anyway.

My point being the fallibility of on-line translations, which is why I am here :)

BTW: I made use of that bad word you taught me yesterday. In an addendum story to the one I am working on a boy ridiculed her as a "redneck" and I first had her say "F--- you!" in Polish, then "Bug--- you, dumbass!" in French in reply. I switched the Polish to her saying, "Piz--!" :)



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