The BEST Guide to POLAND
Unanswered  |  Archives 
 
 
User: Guest

Home / Language  % width posts: 30

which one sounds better? widziałem/zobaczyłem


whitopian1 8 | 3
7 Oct 2012  #1
today, i saw my friend (female):

1) dzisiaj widziałem moją przyjaciółkę

or

2) dzisiaj zobaczyłem moją przyjaciółkę.

okay, so i know the first is progressive and the latter is perfective, so literally it's "today, i was seeing my friend" and "today, i have seen my friend", but i am just confused about which to use. when i saw my friend, i told her happy birthday and asked how her knew school is, so i assume i would use progressive; but since i put to"today" denoting the action has ended and is now over, wouldn't it be perfective?

are both usable? or do they have different meanings by changing the aspct of the verb? if so what would they both mean?
utopia
7 Oct 2012  #2
are both usable? or do they have different meanings by changing the aspct of the verb? if so what would they both mean?

[The mark # below indicates that you may omit the timeline specifics: the general past or future tense comes from the verb conjugations.]

1. Gdy ujrzałem (zobaczyłem, spotkałem) (#, dzisiaj, wczoraj) moją przyjaciółkę Ingę, złożyłem jej życzenia urodzinowe i spytałem ją o jej nową szkołę.

[All verbs are in the past tense, perfective action - all of this has been done]

2. Gdy ujrzę (zobaczę, spotkam) (#, jutro, w przyszłą sobotę) moją przyjaciółkę Ingę, złożę jej życzenia urodzinowe i spytam ją o jej nową szkołę.
[All verbs in future tense, perfective action - all of this will have been done]

3. Widziałem wczoraj moją przyjaciółkę Ingę na jej przyjęciu urodzinowym. Bawiła się doskonale cały czas. Na przywitanie złożyłem jej życzenia, pokłoniłem się jej mamie i przed wyjściem porozmawiałem z nią przez chwilę o jej nowej szkole.

[Widziałem, past tense, imperfective - extended in timeline, say - five hours or so. Bawiła się - the same. But all the other verbs: złożyłem, pokłoniłem się, porozmawiałem are clearly set at some points of the time axis of past tense, and represent perfective actions - all had been done]

4. (#, Ongiś, W przeszłości), gdy widywałem moją przyjaciółkę Ingę, składałem jej najlepsze życzenia i zapytywałem (pytałem, wypytywałem) ją o jej nową szkołę.

[All verbs here are in past tense, all represent frequentive, imperfective actions. Here you just stress the action itself - "I used to see her, I used to congratulate her, I used to ask". The fact that you actually used to finish making all of these is not important here, because you were doing it repeatedly]
Lyzko
7 Oct 2012  #3
Czy mogę widzieć jadłospis? = May I (see/look at on a regular basis!!) the menu? - A rather odd, if totally comprehensible request:-)

Czy mogę ZOBACZYĆ jadłospis? = May I (have a look[right now!!]) at the menu? - The more usual way of phrasing the SAME request!
peter_olsztyn 6 | 1,098
8 Oct 2012  #4
which one sounds better? widziałem/zobaczyłem

widziałem is more safe for learner.
utopia
8 Oct 2012  #5
So if you really have no clue about the major differences, please stay away. The grammar is very precise here.

Czy mogę widzieć jadłospis?

Czy mogę ZOBACZYĆ jadłospis?

Both forms are the direct English language calques and do not sound well in Polish - as if the customer was asking himself for a permission to see the menu. "Poproszę o jadłospis", "czy mogłaby pani podać jadłospis?", "czy byłaby pani tak miła i podała jadłospis?", "czy byłaby pani tak łaskawa i podała jadłospis?" - are the expressions of various courtesy levels - all adressing the waitress, not the customer himself!

By the way:
To the same categories of calques belong "Czy mogę w czymś pomóc?" and "W czym mogę pomóc". "May I help you?" or "can I help you?" suggest that a customer is so-o-o helpless while he/she may be just in need of some information instead. The old fashioned Polish "Czym mogę służyć?" is more precise here, suggesting information service to be offered, rather than help.

The phrase "Czy mogę w czymś pomóc?" becomes extremely pushy, especially in direct contact with a clerk or a salesman. The situation in which, immediately after entering the store, the customer is met by the ingratiatingly smiling Dziunia, happily chirping "may I help you?" is the main reason why many customers immediately exit the store. Believe me, this is a cultural thing, a cultural difference. I like to be left alone for the first few moments in order to assess whether of not the store meets my expectation to start with. "No thank you, I am just looking around" is my usual reaction to such premature offers.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,616
8 Oct 2012  #6
Anyway, £yżko made a very good point here illustrating the difference between the usage of the two verbs "widziec" and "zobaczyć" and I wouldn't be so principal on the use of "Czy mogę zobaczyć jadłospis?" in a restaurant. This question sounds perfectly natural in Polish; I myself wouldn't hesitate to ask it in case the waitress Dziuna, as you were so kind to name her producing thus an excellent sample of the patronising style of yours, would be explaining what they have on the menu, but with still no menu on the table.
peter_olsztyn 6 | 1,098
8 Oct 2012  #7
So if you really have no clue about the major differences, please stay away. The grammar is very precise here.

Become member and don't build funny constructions never used in colloquial language.
Zibi - | 336
8 Oct 2012  #8
widziałem is more safe for learner.

Not in this case, you are clearly wrong. The verb 'widzieć' by and large denotes ability to see. Therefore a question like Czy mogę widzieć jadłospis? would sound plainly stupid for the native polish speakers, however if used by a foreigner would be totally understood.
utopia
8 Oct 2012  #9
don't build funny constructions never used in colloquial language.

The OP asked exactly for the constructs I presented:
OP: "when i saw my friend, i told her happy birthday and asked how her knew school is"
Exact translation below (construct #1, above, simplified - no options):
Gdy ujrzałem moją przyjaciółkę, złożyłem jej życzenia urodzinowe i spytałem ją o jej nową szkołę.

So what's your fecking problem. There is no way you could use "widzieć" in the above. The verb must be perfective (ujrzeć, zobaczyć).

And there are hundreds such constructs on internet. Just search the form:
"Gdy ją ujrzałem"
=> Gdy ją ujrzałem zakochałem się..
=> Gdy ją ujrzałem to się pogubiłem....
=> Gdy ją ujrzałem zdumiałem się....
Lyzko
8 Oct 2012  #10
..."Czy mogę zobaczyć jadłospis?".. would hence sound as weird/wrong (if comprehensible) to Poles as "Can I see menu card?", for example, would sound completely "understandable", if rather off to a native English speaker!

Thanks for the tip(s), Utopia!!
Ziemowit 12 | 3,616
9 Oct 2012  #11
Sentences of the type "Czy mogę zobaczyć jadłospis/pokój [w hotelu]?" are somewhat exigent in character. It is natural to ask them if something is missing (for example, a menu card at your table in a restaurant which you expected to be given immediately) or if the request goes beyond the typically expected contents of an issue (you first want to have a look at the room in a hotel you are going to take).
cinek 2 | 337
9 Oct 2012  #12
Gdy ujrzałem moją przyjaciółkę, złożyłem jej życzenia urodzinowe i spytałem ją o jej nową szkołę.

I'd say it:
Kiedy spotkałem moją .... itd.

Using 'ujrzałem' here ephasizes that you were surprised when you met her. 'Spotkałem' is more neutral, unless you already described the circumstances of the event (e.g. you were both at the same place for some reason and now you're only describing the moment when you could start talking).

Anyways, as the other already said, 'ujrzałem/zobaczyłem" is perfectly understandable for Polish natives.

Cinek
utopia
9 Oct 2012  #13
Using 'ujrzałem' here ephasizes that you were surprised when you met her. 'Spotkałem' is more neutral, unless you already described the circumstances of the event (e.g. you were both at the same place for some reason and now you're only describing the moment when you could start talking).

You could be right, but that's seem to me as one possibility. "Ujrzałem ją na przyjęciu" does not necessary mean that I was surprised seeing her there; we might have as well known in advance about both of us being invited there; I just noticed her there within the crowd, then approached her and blah, blah.

Here is what Definicja.net says about ujrzeć:
 » Dojrzeć
 » Dopatrzyć się, odnaleźć wzrokiem
 » Dostrzec
 » Nieco podniośle: zobaczyć
 » Patrząc, spostrzec kogoś, coś
 » Przyuważyć
 » Spostrzec
 » Wypatrzeć
 » Wypatrzyć
 » Zaobserwować
 » Zarejestrować zmysłem wzroku
 » Zarejestrować, schwycić, uchwycić
 » Zauważyć
 » Zauważyć, przyuważyć, wypatrzyć
 » Złowić zmysłem
 » Zobaczyć
 » Zobaczyć, spostrzec, dostrzec
 » Zoczyć, odnotować, zaobserwować
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
9 Oct 2012  #14
"Ujrzeć" is hightly poetic and bookish. "Zobaczyć" means the same and won't make you an object of ridicule. ;-)
utopia
9 Oct 2012  #15
Going back to the topic: The bottom line that all those verbs - from "dostrzec" to archaic "zoczyć" - are all, without exception, perfective verbs, and could be used in the first position of the following structure:

WHEN (perfective verb) THEN (perfective verb) ... AND THEN (perfective verb),
to which the original OP's sentence: "when i saw my friend, i told her happy birthday and asked how her [k]new school is" belongs.

"Ujrzeć" is hightly poetic and bookish. "Zobaczyć" means the same and won't make you an object of ridicule. ;-)

Kindly refer to post #2, where alternatives were originally shown: ujrzałem (zobaczyłem, spotkałem).

Poetic? Yes. But it appears not only in ancient poetry, but also in modern one:
Halka (Moniuszko) - Ha! A może łzy niedoli/ Gdy ją ujrzę, uspokoję...
Kurhanek Maryli (Mickiewicz) - Więzi cię ten kurbanek / Nie ujrzysz już kochanka / Nie ujrzy cię kochanek!
Poezja *** (Zbigniew Barteczka (1969-)) - Gdy ujrzałem / Ciebie / Dawno / Temu …

But "ujrzeć" appears not only in poetry but also in prose:
Rzym za Nerona (Kraszewski) - Wchodząc do cubiculum, ujrzałem go na wysokiem łożu
Lord Jim (Conrad) - ujrzałem go odcinającego się na tle zachodzącego słońca
Bez dogmatu (H Sienkiewicz) - Gdy ją ujrzę zadowoloną ze swego bohaterstwa, chłodną, zakochaną lub udającą miłość do męża,

Religious texts have plenty of "ujrzałem go", as in Apokalipsa św. Jana (Revelation. St. John) etc. Just search for "ujrzałem go".

It is also used in modern art, various video/audio home productions on youtube, wrzuta. Quality aside... :-)
DVD (grupa Pidżama Porno) - Breżniew … ujrzałem śmierć na scenie
Ujrzałem diabła - movie 2010 (director Jee-woon-Kim)

Just for fun, from etymologia.org, verb źrzeć:

źrzeć: ja żrzę, ty źrzysz; ja pojrzę, ty pojrzysz
In compounds:
doźrzeć => dojrzeć
użrzeć => ujrzeć; uźrzyta (ujrzą (oba))
uźrzenie; źrzadlo (in XVI c.) (zwierciadło)
pożrzeć => pojrzeć; pożrzycie (patrzcie),
nienajrzeć (nienawidzieć)
zajrzeć (almost the same)

Frequentive:
podejrzywać; podejrzany

Root: zir-
Old Church Slavonic: zir ją, ziriszi, ziriti
Czech: zrziti, zrzitn, zrziedlo (zwierciadło)
Rusyn: zrief, zrju, zrisz
Frequentive: zirati, hence Polish zirać, zierać (since XVI c), in compounds: pozierać, dozierać, zazierać, wyzierać, nadzierać
With suffix -k:
zerknąć, wzrok
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
9 Oct 2012  #16
Poetic? Yes. But it appears not only in ancient poetry, but also in modern one

I never said "archaic". I said "bookish and poetic". All your examples are either one or the other, or both ;-)

You don't use "ujrzeć" in everyday speech. "Ujrzałam młode ziemniaczki w warzywniaku". Would you seriously say that?
utopia
9 Oct 2012  #17
You don't use "ujrzeć" in everyday speech. "Ujrzałam młode ziemniaczki w warzywniaku". Would you seriously say that?

I would not say that. But some people do say exactly this; please do not blame me for that: :-)

Przechadzając się niepewnym jeszcze krokiem po dziale „warzywa” ujrzałam młode ziemniaczki, bardzo jędrne, smakowite i wołające „zjedz ...

nektarmandarynkowy.blox.pl/admin/delic.blox.pl/delic.blox.pl/siberry.b lox.pl/html/1310721,262146,169,170.html?33,1
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
9 Oct 2012  #18
Your quote confirms my opinion, actually. The fragment in question is written in highly literary Polish. What I am talking about is normal, everyday speech. If you don't see the difference, I can't help...
utopia
9 Oct 2012  #19
The fragment in question is written in highly literary Polish

You really did not read that blog. It is full of ordinary phrases, some would even say vulgar: "Pierdolę, stwierdziłam zatem, zarzuciłam dżinsy, białe trampki i dużo dodatków w kwiatki (wiosna, c’nie), i w dupie mając wytworny dress code jęłam wychodzić, spóźniona już na drugą z kolei kolejkę wukade."

But any way, I give up. :-)
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
9 Oct 2012  #20
I actually did read some of the blog. The fact that someone is capable of using different registers does not mean that they mix them up inappropriately. You can have fun with language, you know - but ujrzeć is a poetic, bookish verb if there ever was one, no matter what any of us says.
Ziemowit 12 | 3,616
9 Oct 2012  #21
I am of the same opinion as Magdalena. The author of the blog undoubtedly (provocatively even) uses outstandingly diffferent registers to enhance the final effect. Look at that:

"Pierdolę, stwierdziłam zatem, zarzuciłam dżinsy, białe trampki i dużo dodatków w kwiatki (wiosna, c’nie), i w dupie mając wytworny dress code jęłam wychodzić, spóźniona już na drugą z kolei kolejkę wukade."

Pierdolę [vulgar], c'nie [experimental usage], wytworny [literary] dress code [anglicism], jełam [archaic] - it's amazing to have assembled all these in one sentence only!
utopia
9 Oct 2012  #22
Sentences of the type "Czy mogę zobaczyć jadłospis/pokój [w hotelu]?" are somewhat exigent in character. It is natural to ask them if something is missing (for example, a menu card at your table in a restaurant which you expected to be given immediately) or if the request goes beyond the typically expected contents of an issue (you first want to have a look at the room in a hotel you are going to take).

You are mixing two different ideas in the same paragraph. The first is polite command, the second is asking for permission.

Either sentence: "Can/May I see a menu?" or "Czy mogę zobaczyć jadłospis?" implies asking for permission to see a menu. This makes no sense in either Polish or in English. This is why I objected to it in post #5. One should rather use the structure "A menu, please" in English, or "Proszę o jadłospis" in Polish.

Here is what Google reports:
"proszę o jadłospis" - 67,000 hits vs. "czy mogę zobaczyć jadłospis?" - 312
"proszę o kartę dań" - 2360 vs. "czy mogę zobaczyć kartę dań?" - 0
"proszę o menu" - 112, 000 vs. "czy mogę zobaczyć menu?" - 117

But the sentence "Can/May I see the room?" means that you are actually asking for permission to inspect the hotel room. This time the expression makes sense; so does its Polish equivalent "Czy mogę zobaczyć pokój?"
Ziemowit 12 | 3,616
10 Oct 2012  #23
You are mixing two different ideas in the same paragraph. The first is polite command, the second is asking for permission.

Either sentence: "Can/May I see a menu?" or "Czy mogę zobaczyć jadłospis?" implies asking for permission to see a menu.

I totally disagree. The first one as well as the second one may serve as one or the other. I would have never ever thought in all my life that when askijng the waiter "Czy mogę zobaczyć jadłospis?", I would be asking him for a permission to see it. It is just a polite command since I can never imagine he would dare reply to me: "Nie, nie może Pan zobaczyć zobaczyć jadłospisu" (if it really was a permission, he would feel free to refuse to say "no" if he wanted). It would simply be his duty to show it to me, so please stop talking rubish here and dzielić włos na czworo!
utopia
10 Oct 2012  #24
It is just a polite command since I can never imagine he would dare reply to me: "Nie, nie może Pan zobaczyć zobaczyć jadłospisu" (if it really was a permission, he would feel free to refuse to say "no" if he wanted).

That's a point. It sounds like asking for permission. And never say never - one day you might come across of a silly smart ass who will just do that.

It would simply be his duty to show it to me, so please stop talking rubish here and dzielić włos na czworo!

Fecking polite.
Facts are facts, mister - as shown by Google data I quoted and which you conveniently ignored.

Somehow, they do not use the phrase "Czy mogę zobaczyć jadłospis?" in simple "Rozmówki polsko-angielskie" (e-felberg.pl), scribd.com/doc/5361144/10/RESTAURACJA-ZAMOWIENIE , but simple phrases like "Proszę o jadłospis":

10. RESTAURACJAL ZAMÓWIENIE (page 34)
Proszę o jadłospis / kartę dań.
A menu please.

Neither here: [by Bruce Henry Lambert, on assignment by the European Commission to EEDRI / AoM in £ódź.]
reorient.com/polishfoods/Polish-foods-list.pdf
Terms Useful in Restaurants
Proszę o jadłospis / kartę dań - A menu, please.

Nor here (guide for Germans visiting Krakow):
suite101.de/article/miniguide-krakau-a44076
Sprache:
Die Speisekarte bitte - Prosze o jadlospis (prosche o jadwospis)

I wonder why?
Ziemowit 12 | 3,616
10 Oct 2012  #25
That's a point. It sounds like asking for permission. And never say never - one day you might come across of a silly smart ass who will just do that.

Agreed, but only if you were this "silly smart ass who I might come across one day". I cannot imagine any other waiter or waitress who would just do that.
utopia
10 Oct 2012  #26
^^
Well, well - how classy. Resorting to name calling of a anonymous poster? It is actually funny. :-)
Ziemowit 12 | 3,616
10 Oct 2012  #27
I was quoting your own words, actually, with which you were kind to call an anonymous water/waitress.
Lyzko
10 Oct 2012  #28
Actually, I was responding in my example to a Polish waitress who saw me seated at the counter one day and politely asked "Czy pan chciałby zobaczyć jadłospis?", to which my reply was "Tak, proszę o jadłospis!"

Exigient "calques" and the like belong to whole force field of second-language interference!
Ziemowit 12 | 3,616
12 Oct 2012  #29
£yżko, please accept that phrases like "Czy mogę zobaczyć jadłospis?" or "Czy pan chciałby zobaczyć jadłospis?" are not calques of English into Polish. These are natural Polish phrases, the opinion of a certain Utopia on the matter will not change it, and you yourself have just given proof of it by quoting a real-life conversation with a Polish waitress. Believe me or not, the waitress was not using any calque! There are simply several ways of expressing onerself in a language, and a "Rozmówki" book will give you only one version of it, perhaps most typical in a given context. That doesn't mean that other ways of expressing oneself in their own native language will be proof of second-language interference!

Ludzie, na miłość Boską, uczcie się myśleć samodzielnie zamiast dawać się wodzić za nos Utopii!
Lyzko
12 Oct 2012  #30
Thank you for confirming what I thought!


Home / Language / which one sounds better? widziałem/zobaczyłem
BoldItalic [quote]
 
To post as Guest, enter a temporary username or login and post as a member.