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If nominative singular noun ends in "-(not -c-) + ha", is dative & locative singular ending still "-sze"?


Lri 4 | 38    
13 May 2019  #1
To my knowledge, nominative singular feminine & neuter nouns of Polish-language origin always have only letter "-c-" immediately before "-h(a or -o)" ending. But what if, for example, a nominative singular feminine noun of non-Polish origin ends in "-(a/b, etc. except -c-) + ha"? Then does the dative & locative singular ending "-sze" still apply? Or is there a different dative & locative ending for such nouns?
mafketis 17 | 6,755    
13 May 2019  #2
@Lri
I don't understand your question, but...
pracownica - pracownicy (loc)

Are you asked if a word ended in (for example) -kha? or -lha?

I'm not a native but I think the two most likely options for the locative would be

-ksze -lsze

-kha -lha (not declined, foreign words that don't fit in the system are often not declined even when it might be possible)

-khy -lhy

(on the model of gatha a very rare word found here:

zakonczone.pl/

and then checked here:

sjp.pl/gatha
Lyzko 20 | 6,170    
13 May 2019  #3
Normally, "hard-stem" endings become "softened" in the Locative, much as they tend to in the Dative, e.g. "matka" < "matCE", "ksiazka" < "ksiazCE" etc..
OP Lri 4 | 38    
13 May 2019  #4
Are you asked if a word ended in (for example) -kha? or -lha?

Yes exactly (and I apologize for the confusion), nominative singular feminine nouns of non-Polish origin ending in (for demonstration purposes) "-aha", "-bha" etc...as well as the examples you gave, "-kha" and "-lha" etc. My question was if their singular dative & locative declensions would still be "-asze", "-bsze", "-ksze", "-lsze" etc.

So far, I've found only one declinable nominative singular (more specifically, virile category) noun ending in "-(not -c-)h"...that noun being "Druh" (nominative & vocative plural "Druhowie") which is apparently considered an obsolete/outdated word
kaprys 1 | 1,605    
13 May 2019  #5
Druh is masculine. It's rarely used - in scouting - but it's not obsolete.
To be honest, I can't think of any feminine nouns ending with 'ha' not 'cha'. Is there any word or name that you have in mind?

The feminine counterpart of druh is druhna.
OP Lri 4 | 38    
13 May 2019  #6
Is there any word or name that you have in mind?

Basically non-Polish nouns ending in "-(not -c-)ha", most of those nouns being capitalized. A random example would be "Baha" (an Arabic male first name, so I'd guess nominative & vocative plural would be "Bahowie")
kaprys 1 | 1,605    
13 May 2019  #7
@Lri
Hmm, that's confusing. Would you really often use the plural of the name? Like two Bahas?
In the nominative form dwóch Bahów. In the vocative Bahowie sounds ok.
OP Lri 4 | 38    
13 May 2019  #8
Would you really often use the plural of the name? Like two Bahas?

Well you never know, maybe for example "Dwaj/trzej/czterej Bahowie są w sali lekcyjnej", "Wszyscy Bahowie są pilni/pracoholikami", etc
mafketis 17 | 6,755    
13 May 2019  #9
To be honest, I can't think of any feminine nouns ending with 'ha' not 'cha'.

wataha ? (locative watasze according to one dictionary site I consulted)
delphiandomine 85 | 17,644    
13 May 2019  #10
Druh is masculine. It's rarely used - in scouting - but it's not obsolete.

Is it connected to the Russian "друг" (drug), meaning "friend", I wonder? I think Serbian has something similar too...Crowie?
OP Lri 4 | 38    
13 May 2019  #11
wataha ? (locative watasze according to one dictionary site I consulted)

Dative & locative singular of "wataha" (derived from Ukrainian) is watasze/wataże/watadze, according to en.wiktionary.org/wiki/wataha...From what I recall, "-dze" is also dative & locative singular ending of nominative singular nouns ending in "-ga". And before now, I never saw dative & locative singular ending "-że"
kaprys 1 | 1,605    
13 May 2019  #12
@Lri
I don't know but it sounds odd. Probably because in Polish masculine names don't usually end with a.
But there's Kuba and actually you're right I guess about Bahowie in the nominative. Still I'd change it to dwaj chłopcy o imieniu Baha /Kuba. But it's just me.

As for wataha (thnx, mafketis) , check it here pl.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/wataha
Watadze and wataze are incorrect.

@delphiandomine
It seems to be derived from proto-Slavic. And of course it also means a friend, although it's not often used but there's this song from Toy Story 'Ty druha we mnie masz'
OP Lri 4 | 38    
14 May 2019  #13
Watadze and wataze are incorrect

The website pl.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/wataha lists both "watasze" and "wataże" as being dative & locative singulars of "wataha". And this website
sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/;12262 lists "Doha" (capital city of Qatar), plus these explanations in the paragraphs (English only please).
Lyzko 20 | 6,170    
14 May 2019  #14
Foreign place name endings are notoriously problematic, as most rarely fit the declensional patterns in Polish.
kaprys 1 | 1,605    
14 May 2019  #15
@Lri
Wataże and watadze are discussed here.

sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/;11744

As for Doha check this great explanation here

sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/;12262

As you scroll down, the professor answers the question about foreign names/borrowings with h - it's a pity I can't paste it here. Anyway look for the paragraph that starts with Ogólne zasady. His reply mentions wataha as well.
OP Lri 4 | 38    
14 May 2019  #16
(Partial translations below...I did my best LOL):

sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/;11744
Question: "Form of noun 'wataha' in locative case as 'watadze' is or once was correct form?"

Answer:
" 'Wataha' should have locative (and dative) in the form 'wataże', but because the words characterized by the commonality/intensity 'h-->ż' are not enough, the word 'wataha' has long been changed like the words 'blacha' & 'mucha'-->'watasze', like 'blasze' and 'musze'. For several years, the spelling 'watasze' can already be found in dictionaries in front of the related form 'wataże'

The locative 'watadze' corresponds to the older and no-longer-used word 'wataga'. In modern dictionaries, we don't find 'watagi'. It should be checked in the later editions if 'watadze' is being removed and replaced with 'watasze' "

sjp.pwn.pl/poradnia/haslo/;11744
"Doha. Capital of Qatar. I have doubts whether or not it should not be read as 'w Dodze', and not - as stubbornly repeated in almost every portal - 'w Dosze'. For comparison, words such as puha, duha or Dołha, near Międzyrzec Podlaski, this is how we read: pudze, dudze, and Dołdze, respectively

More well-known examples are 'wataha' and 'yamaha', but as for them, the new spelling dictionaries of PWN provide the datives & locatives '-sze' (form 'wataże' still listed as side variant)

General information about the spelling h and ch in the borrowed words is given in the Great Spelling Dictionary PWN. The codifications of datives & locatives of nouns ending in '-ha' changed in 1990s..Earlier in dictionaries, there were forms '-że' and '-dze', examples 'wataże' and 'watadze'..Today the relics of spellings remain here & there..Mentioned by Mister, 'puha' has three variant forms in the WSO (pusze in first place, and side by side in pudze and puże), and 'duha' only two ('dudze' and 'duże'). In the details, we can see inconsistencies that should be corrected in the next edition of the dictionary, but in general there is a tendency to move away from the endings '-że' and '-dze' in favour of the ending '-sze', and not distinguishing between nouns ending in '-ha' and '-cha'. Of course we still write 'watażka' and not 'wataszka', spelling resources have not reached as far."


Home / Language / If nominative singular noun ends in "-(not -c-) + ha", is dative & locative singular ending still "-sze"?
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