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The Future of Polish Language


Teffle 22 | 1,321
17 Nov 2010 #91
The Dutch misspeak English just like any other foreign group

Of course, but in general my experience is that a Dutch speaker who speaks "good English" will usually have a better vocabulary & pronunciation/accent than most other Europeans - except for maybe the Swedish.
Lyzko
17 Nov 2010 #92
You're right in the sense that when a Dutch DOES really know English well, it's truly effortless and even accurate (as opposed to just merely "communicatively fluent"). Such instances though in my experience have unfortunately been overshadowed by the arrogant majority who fit the image I posted preiviously.

I'd like to think that your experience is the true majority. But perhaps that's the frustrated idealist in me-:))
Crow 152 | 9,790
17 Nov 2010 #93
The Future of Polish Language

bright
Lyzko
17 Nov 2010 #94
You're correct, Stu. As always, it cuts both ways. For instance, listen to a Dutchman pronounce 'Sometimes, it takes time to do a good job.', and it usually comes out as "Itt, tehkss sawmmtajmss tajm, to doo eh goot djawp." (Phonetically transcribed, of course. This though applies more to older than younger speakers)
A J 4 | 1,088
17 Nov 2010 #95
Nou, waarom denk je dat?

Jij spreekt mijn taal dus echt niet beter dan mij hè? Dikke doei. Gebruik eens wat dure woorden en probeer nu eens één enkele zin te vormen die ietwat langer is dan de simpele vijf woordjes die jij zojuist gebruikt hebt. (Goh, jij zult wel trots op jezelf zijn!)

Many a Dutch tourist I've encountered during my travels, although I speak their language far more correctly than they speak mine, appears to equate a liberal sprinkling of the f***-curse and the words "Dude", "awesome" ad nauseum with speaking 'good' English LOL Something wrong with this equation here, people???

My English isn't good. My English is excellent, or up to par atleast. Here;

The linguistic skills (Subject.) of many a Dutch tourist that I have encountered (Notice this is past tense.) during my travels - although I speak their language far more correctly than they seemed (Yup, past tense!) to be capable of speaking mine - appeared (Past tense again!) to equate a liberal sprinkling of profanities and swearwords such as ''f*ck'', aswell as the usage of americanisations such as ''dude'' and ''awesome'' ad-nauseam, (Comma.) to (Instead of with, to the subject at the end of the sentence of course.) speaking 'good' English. (Dot.) Is there something wrong with this equation here, people?

Answer: Infact, there are a few things wrong with your equation, yes. (Shall I become an English teacher then?)

;)

On the other hand, a lot of people with a clear double standard (that they're not aware of).

On the other hand, there are a lot of.. (Oh, and who have would probably be better than ''with''.)

;)

Standards for their own language are very high.

Of course, because this is the language in which they are expected to communicate on a daily basis.

For Polish this might be the kind of person who wishes that Miodek would speak correctly.

Makes perfect sense.

Standards for English are .... whatever, who cares? it's just English. (again on its own, this is no problem).

Those aren't my standards, but I can only hope to become as articulate as some of the people I converse with. (That's how I learn.)

The problem is the minority that thinks of afectless, awkward make-do international English is all there is to the language and to give equal legitimacy to that and native usage within the domain of native usage (if you follow that).

I do, but then again, tell me which English person can truly say that he or she has mastered *my* language. (Double-standard anyone?)

Another aspect can be found among some (not all maybe not most but some) native speakers who teach English in Poland and see their job as the facilitation of a language shift from Polish to English within Poland. A lot of this is unconscious but I've known a few teachers who thought that Polish speakers should follow the sensible lead of the Irish and abandon their language in favor of English.

Some scientists believe that it's benificial for people to speak more than one language, because some languages force people - unconsciencely - to use different parts of their brains, which they otherwise, wouldn't use. For the sake of variety, education, business and creativity, I think it's actually a good thing to keep all of our languages intact instead of surrendering to ourselves to English completely.

:)
Torq
17 Nov 2010 #96
but I've known a few teachers who thought that Polish speakers should follow the sensible
lead of the Irish and abandon their language in favor of English.

We didn't abandon our language under partitions. We learnt and cherished it during wars
and occupations, even putting our lives at risk for it, so abandoning it by Poles in independent
Poland now, is as likely as abandoning Turkish in Turkey or German in Germany :)

I am quite happy with my bastardized, used and abused version of English (my Irish
and American friends seem to be happy with it as well), so I see no reason at all to
abandon Polish, which, in its proper written or spoken form, really gives me a metaphysical,
linguistic orgasm (I don't get it with any other language, sorry :)).
mafketis 32 | 10,533
17 Nov 2010 #97
We didn't abandon our language under partitions. We learnt and cherished it during wars and occupations, even putting our lives at risk for it, so abandoning it by Poles in independent Poland now, is as likely as abandoning Turkish in Turkey or German in Germany :)

quite right (I assumed it was obvious I thought the teachers in question were insane).

On the other hand, Americans tend to see all non-US citizens as potential immigrants who need to hurry up their personal process of assimilation. This is also insane and wrongheaded but the idea is definitely there among a lot of them.
nott 3 | 594
17 Nov 2010 #98
Answer: Infact, there are a few things wrong

wsu.edu/~brians/errors/infact.html

:) sorry, AJ, your English looks impressive, regardless. IMO, from my POV.

Although I don't really get that bitching about tenses...

I was not 'whining' (I never do!), I was rather bemoaning the decline of standards

Nobody is ever 'whining', innit :) I'd happily join you in the bemoaning thing, same goes for Polish, standards are falling. Or changing...

What makes you a whiner, though, is blaming the foreigners rather, than your own ilk. The foreigners attack you with besmirched English, you counter them with English pure and resounding, and see the jaws dropping low, knees bending themselves on their own, and eyes begging for more in mute appeal. That's the way.

After some practice, you may grow balls big enough to speak that English to your countrymen... :)

Thing is, that perfect English of yours is an extremely elusive beast. It happens to me to listen to some English speaker with utter awe and admiration, but this reaction is based on my foreigner's subjective conjecture only. How do I know that I admire the really worthy ones?
Teffle 22 | 1,321
17 Nov 2010 #99
AJ, your English looks impressive

Believe me, it is excellent.

You are no slouch either though - Torq too.

Plenty of others I should praise I'm sure...
gumishu 11 | 5,860
17 Nov 2010 #100
Writing is not speaking, Lyzko. But I am sure you know that. More often than not, the pronunciation of the language gives you away as being a foreigner. It worked in WWII when Nazi spies were asked to pronounce "Scheveningen" or other typical Dutch words.

Stu - Dutch language is pretty easy to speak tell ya :)

I never really taught myself Dutch and I could understand a lot from similarity to the German (and a little less to English) and speaking it is not much hassle either (the couple of rules are pretty quick to grasp)
A J 4 | 1,088
17 Nov 2010 #101
:) sorry, AJ, your English looks impressive, regardless. IMO, from my POV.

Well, my excuse is that I'm a foreigner who has never studied English, but thank you for pointing it out! (Will remember that one!)

Hey, I'm not the one who's English, but since Lyzko claims to be, he or she should really look at his or her own mistakes for a change, before he or she 'bemoans' anyone else's efforts to use his or her language to the best of their abilities.

Although I don't really get that bitching about tenses...

Really? Well, I'm sure you've heard or read somewhere that a past tense is a grammatical tense which places an action or a situation in the past? I don't know much, but I do know that you shouldn't mix the past tense with the present tense in the same sentence. I figured that if you're English you should know that.

I'm actually looking forward to some more nit-picking in this thread, because I absolutely love the English language, and I certainly wouldn't mind to learn more.

Believe me, it is excellent.

Thank you. I'm trying.

:)
Stu 12 | 522
17 Nov 2010 #102
Dutch language is pretty easy to speak tell ya

Too bad I won't be able to hear you pronounce the different eu-sound in "neus" and "deur", the ui-sound, how you pronounce "gelijk" and "heerlijk".

Or tell me the differences in the meaning of the sentence "ik heb dat geld niet gestolen" depending on which word you put the stress, or the difference in the meaning of the word "overdrijven", depending on where you put the stress and the correct sequence of words in a sentence.

I think the reason why you think it is simple is because you don't know how to pronounce Dutch correctly. I won't even start about grammar rules.
gumishu 11 | 5,860
17 Nov 2010 #103
believe me - I really haven't stolen that money ;)

yes - I can imagine Dutch has it's specific intricacies be it grammatical or (of ;) phonetical

and yes perhaps my spoken Dutch is not perfect (I mean pronouncing all the sounds of the language - especially the g and h difference)

as for grammar I think you will agree that Dutch language shares a lot of rules with German and English languages
A J 4 | 1,088
17 Nov 2010 #104
as for grammar I think you will agree that Dutch language shares a lot of rules with German and English languages

I disagree, because all the funny details and complications that most textbooks don't even show you, certainly make Dutch more complicated to learn than German or English, even though German and Dutch might show a lot of similarities. You might learn how to speak and write Dutch correctly, and it may seem equally difficult to German at first, but you'll find that our language is extremely metaphorical, which is something that most foreigners can't ever hope to get the hang of. (Just how it is!)

The difficulty of my language isn't about what you have learned to say, but about all the different ways of saying it. Something simple *snickers* like; ''How's it going?'' for example;

Hoe is 't?
Hoe is het?
Hoe is 't met je?
Hoe is 't met jou?
Hoe is het met je?
Hoe is het met jou?
Hoe gaat 't?
Hoe gaat het?
Hoe gaat 't met je?
Hoe gaat 't met jou?
Hoe gaat het met je?
Hoe gaat het met jou?
Hoe gaat alles met je?
Hoe gaat alles met jou?
Hoe gaat alles nu met je?
Hoe gaat alles nu met jou?
Alles goed?
Alles goed met je?
Alles goed met jou?
Gaat alles goed?
Gaat alles goed met je?
Gaat alles goed met jou?
Hoe gaat 't ermee?
Hoe gaat het ermee?
Hé pik, alles goed?
Hoes't?
Hoes'tie?
Hoe gaat 'ie?
Hoe gaat 'ie met je?
Hoe gaat 'ie met jou?
Hoe staat 't ermee?
Hoe staat het ermee?
Alles lekker?
Gaat 't lekker?
Gaat 'ie lekker?

Okay, I'll stop right there, because I can go on for ages!

xD
nott 3 | 594
18 Nov 2010 #105
You are no slouch either

Appreciated :) although you'd change your opinion if you heard me speaking...

shouldn't mix the past tense with the present tense in the same sentence

Ah, now I see what you mean. But it's a complex sentence. 'People I've met will remain in my memory', no problem.

I'm actually looking forward to some more nit-picking in this thread

And I am with you in this expectation. But then we'll end up in you know what..

Regardless: 'the Dutch equate sprinkling with speaking' seems Ok to me. I had to check:
idioms.thefreedictionary.com/equate+with]
A J 4 | 1,088
18 Nov 2010 #106
Regardless: 'the Dutch equate sprinkling with speaking' seems Ok to me. I had to check:

Yes, that would be correct in *that* particular context, but unfortunately Lyzko interrupted his/her sentence twice with a subject and made a comparison, and since the technical correctness of words isn't in the same class as the political correctness of words, but still belong to the same subject, being language, then you should compare ''to'' instead of compare ''with''. For example; You can compare a house in New York to a house in Amsterdam, because these houses might be very similar, but you can't ever compare New York with Amsterdam, since these are two totally different cities. (Understand?)

If you're comparing two things to show that they are similar you say "compare to". If you're comparing two things to show they differ you say "compare with".

;)

e·quate (-kwt)
v. e·quat·ed, e·quat·ing, e·quates
v.tr.
1. To make equal or equivalent.

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was under the impression that you can't make the action of speaking equal to the quality of language. You can however, equalize the subject, being language.

Ah, now I see what you mean. But it's a complex sentence. 'People I've met will remain in my memory', no problem.

Correct, but again, that's in a different context.

:)

Oh, and your link:

idioms.thefreedictionary.com/equate
;)Sorry, even I had to edit myself twice, because it's late!
Lyzko
18 Nov 2010 #107
Hoi, weer AJ!!

Als Nederlander liever je eigene fouten in 't Engels zoeken, dan fouten in teksten van Engelstalige verbeteren, want wij spreken onze moedertaal van de Middelbare School tot de universiteit-:))

In addition, I have never claimed to speak a language perfectly, whether it's Polish, Dutch, even my native English. Why then do umpteen foreigners, one after the other, insist on trying to switch to the interlocutor's native language when the foreigners often makes as many mistakes in English as the outsider does in their language??! Does it somehow sound 'cool' to mangle English and then laugh at others' attempts to speak Dutch, Polish, Farsi whatever???

If I were to encounter a young European who stated, "I'd love to speak English with you just to practice it." or something to that effect, I'd have no problem. All too often however, foreigners think they know English so well, that they don't need to practice it.

I must say, your written English posted thus far, seems quite good. Perhaps though, given sufficient time, I'd have some (small) things to correct LOL.

There's also a MEGA difference between an actual error ("I didn't came." vs. "I didn't come.") vs. a typo ( "Hoi, weer!" vs. "Hoi weer, !" or "......foreigners makes" instead of "foreigners make" etc...)

At least in English, I make typos of omission and not errors of ignorance-:))) I don't pretend to be a prodigy in every language I speak - noone does.

By the way, A J, how long have you been interested in Polish??
Teffle 22 | 1,321
18 Nov 2010 #108
I must say, your written English posted thus far, seems quite good

C'mon! It's better than "quite good" Lyzko.

AJ writes pretty much like a native English speaker most of the time - and an articulate one at that.
Lyzko
18 Nov 2010 #109
Teffle, with all due respect, there are bound to be exceptions. My German is frankly better than most foreigners, perhaps I'm exception, yet it's certainly not identical to an educated German native-:)) The same applies to A J. The person's English looks good, yet only continuing to see spontaneous examples of their posting about various English-language topics from Gilbert & Sullivan up through Woody Allen shtick etc.. will reveal any holes in their English.

I'm the first to admit this too about my languages.
nott 3 | 594
18 Nov 2010 #110

AJ, you're just being difficult :)

Just admit the lust of result beclouded your usual whatever, and it's settled. Your imaginary subject has nothing to do with this sentence.

I don't pretend to be a prodigy in every language I speak - noone does.

Nobody pretends? :)

Or no one pretends....

:)
Lyzko
18 Nov 2010 #111
Last time I looked, Nott, "noone" is spelled as one word, not two-:)) "No one" may well be standard in the UK (after all, they write "to day" whereas we in the States write "today"..), also, it may be used to indicate more than ONE being,but not here. Besides, that's really nitpicking! Moreover, "nobody" and "noone" are identical in usage, if only that perhaps the latter is more literary vernacular than colloquial.
nott 3 | 594
18 Nov 2010 #112
All too often however, foreigners think they know English so well, that they don't need to practice it.

Rubbish. I mean, what they say is rubbish, if they say it.

Let's face it though - few people actually care about the quality of their language, provided they're understood most of the time. And it doesn't matter if they speak their native language or a foreign one, for them it's just a tool. And just as there are craftsmen who love their tools, most of them just have them and use them. No actual reason to get overexcited.
Lyzko
18 Nov 2010 #113
Fine, Nott! Just let the non-craftsman not delude himself into thinking his product is 'only good enough', i.e. adequate, when in fact it isn't. A little modesty in the face of imperfection, that's all we're asking, and a little gratitude for helpful correction. Is that too bloody much to expect?
trener zolwia 1 | 939
18 Nov 2010 #114
Last time I looked, Nott, "noone" is spelled as one word, not two-:))

Wrong. There is no such word. It is two words.
nott 3 | 594
18 Nov 2010 #115
Last time I looked,

en.wiktionary.org/wiki/noone

sorry... :)

thing is, that this spelling hurts my eyes, that's why I cared to point it out at all in this chat on correctness.

And no, the Brits don't spell it 'to day', unless as in 'day to day'. The current day is 'today'.

You missed my point, though. Even if I don't agree with AJ's bitching about equating, the proper ending of that sentence should be 'no(person) is'. Unless it was a joke beyond the reach of my sense of humour...

edit:

Is that too bloody much to expect?

I think so. People just don't care, in their majority, and they are fully entitled to this attitude. Don't expect everybody to be a zealot.

And, mind it, I don't condemn your zeal. Exceptionally, as this one doesn't show any tendency to kill people. Or heaven't shown yet.

Edit:
In fact, I am with you in this. I back you up. There should be more people preaching the love of language. Verily.
Lyzko
19 Nov 2010 #116
Words of support appreciated-:))) And yes, I know I can be a little persnickety at times.

Back to spelling. Alternative spellings abound in English, to a far greater degree than in practically any language I know. Webster's Third Int'l. will show "noone" next to "no one"; both perfectly valid. The OED on the other hand, may be much more proscriptive in matters of orthography (as, no doubt, with everything elseLOL)!

Older versions of Late Modern English, well into the last century in fact, do show "today" occasionally written as two words, albeit this has probably long since gone out of fashion.

Polish sure as heck doesn't have alternative spellings in its standard language, that's for darn sure. Regional/dialect pronunciation however, that's a different story, as it is with most langages. German curiously enough does, i.e. between Germany proper and Austria, e.g. "ZwetschKe" vs. "ZwetschGe", both meaning "plum" (śliwa)-:))

As far as my being a "zealot", I'm no more or less zealous than any normal chap who doesn't see a bleedin' difference between the simple pride in putting a door on the right way (back to the craftsman analogy) and putting an English sentence together...properly!! They both are indicative of the same attitude: Do it right, or don't do it at all.
convex 20 | 3,978
19 Nov 2010 #117
German curiously enough does, i.e. between Germany proper and Austria, e.g. "ZwetschKe" vs. "ZwetschGe", both meaning "plum" (śliwa)-:))

The proper German spelling is "Zwetschge", those freaks in the Southeast speak their own hillbilly form of German, we'll call it Austrian. Mitsammen, grindig, hudelig, and a bunch of other bastardizations which they include in their language.

PS: Zwetschge is a type of Pflaume :)
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 11,802
19 Nov 2010 #118
Yeah...were I come from it's "Pflaume" only! ;)
A J 4 | 1,088
19 Nov 2010 #119
I must say, your written English posted thus far, seems quite good. Perhaps though, given sufficient time, I'd have some (small) things to correct LOL.

Thank you. Just don't 'bemoan' other people's linguistic abilities when you know you're making plenty of mistakes yourself?

AJ, you're just being difficult :)

Sure, but I've made my point. (And I'm right about the subtle difference between comparing to and comparing with.)

Just admit the lust of result beclouded your usual whatever, and it's settled. Your imaginary subject has nothing to do with this sentence.

I will not admit to anything, because my sentence was correct. Oh, and mixing past tense and present tense in the same sentence while spelling ad nauseam wrong just makes you look funny when you're trying to criticise Dutch people who speak English. (And now she's telling me to look for my own mistakes, which I am actually already doing!)

Ga als Nederlander liever éérst je eigen fouten in jouw eigen Engels opzoeken, vóórdat jij de fouten in de teksten van Engelstaligen verbetert, want wij spreken onze moedertaal vanaf de Middelbare School tot aan de universiteit-:))

Sure, but *I* have never made the claim that I speak or write English better than the English themselves. Oh, and you *definitely* don't speak or write my language better than I do, but I would very much like to help you with it!

;P

Fine, Nott! Just let the non-craftsman not delude himself into thinking his product is 'only good enough', i.e. adequate, when in fact it isn't. A little modesty in the face of imperfection, that's all we're asking, and a little gratitude for helpful correction. Is that too bloody much to expect?

Not in my case, but I do expect you to admit your own mistakes whenever someone else points out that you're making them.

In fact, I am with you in this. I back you up. There should be more people preaching the love of language. Verily.

So am I!

:)
Lyzko
19 Nov 2010 #120
Das wusste ich aber doch, convex. Trotzdem danke fuer die Infos-:))

In my grandparents' house, good ol' "German" 'Pflaume' was called (and even spelled) 'die Zwetschke' rather than the DUDEN-correct proper way with a devoiced, yet written, 'g'! When I eventually learned "proper" German in school, I was (un)pleasantly surprised by how much bad German I finally had to unlearn. You guys talk about hillbilly talk, in Austria 'Butter' (masło)is masculine, so is 'Zwiebel' (cybula).

Similar situations exist I'm certain for rural Poles who end up in college, causing nasty guffaws from their classmates with their odd pronunciations and country locutionsLOL


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