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Too many English words in the Polish language!


Leopejo 4 | 120
13 Apr 2011 #181
AFAIK there are lots of German borrowings (and probably French as well, not speaking of Latin and Greek) in Russian. The alphabet and pronunciation do a good job of "hiding" them from the eyes and ears of foreigners, though ;-)

That is certainly true, but still when Polish and Russian differ, it's usually the Polish which has a "western" counterpart to the Russian "common Slavic" one. Also it seems to me that Polish often has two versions of the same word, maybe with slightly different meanings, one "Slavic" and one "western" - a bit like English having often a "Latin" and a "Saxon" (?) word for the same meaning.

Sure, every language has such cases, but Polish struck me among them - it's the only language where I can try to improvise by using an international word and being confident it actually exists.

Edit: the above in my quite limited experience with Polish (and Russian) though.
gumishu 11 | 5,017
13 Apr 2011 #182
this is to some extent a heritage of the past i think - Latin was so valued back in 17th and 18th century that it was actually the core of education
Ziemowit 12 | 3,610
13 Apr 2011 #183
That is certainly true, but still when Polish and Russian differ, it's usually the Polish which has a "western" counterpart to the Russian "common Slavic" one.

With this I wouldn't fully agree. Despite the fact that Leo Tolstoy's 'War and Peace' is half-written in French, the Russian language has Slavic words where we have "western" borrowings, whereas they have "foreign" words where we have Slavic ones. I can think of the names of the months at the moment since we have them truly Slavic, while the Russians have "western" ones. The same with the Bohemians: a friend of my was once appauled in Prague when they could not understand at the reception desk of a hotel that he was born in 'październik'; I happened to witness his "Anmeldung", so I told them "october" and everything became clear.
Lyzko
13 Apr 2011 #184
There you are, Ziemowit, "(sich)anmelden" = (za)anmeldować się etc...
gumishu 11 | 5,017
13 Apr 2011 #185
The same with the Bohemians: a friend of my was once appalled in Prague when they could not understand at the reception desk of a hotel that he was born in 'październik'; I happened to witness his "Anmeldung", so I told them "october" and everything became clear.

it's not that the Czechs have German month names - their month names are purely Slavic just different to ours (most) (and we have international maj (May) for example while the Czech counterpart of Maj is Kveten ) - the only month name that is the same in Polish and Czech is sierpień/srpen as far as I can remember - your 'oktober' helped your friend mainly because knowledge of German was (and I guess still is) very common among Czechs (I guess they taught German much more than in Poland)
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
13 Apr 2011 #186
There are some 'polish' words which sound like Polish but are in fact English. For exampleskrzydło instead of brygada
lotniczapolska.pl/Sily-Powietrzne---skrzydla-zamiast-brygad,5183

Skrzyło is so-called loan translation of the English word wing. For people unaware of this new meaning, this word is difficult to understand. If, for example, in an information programme a journalist would say that a third wing was doing exercises people would think that there is most probably a new type of airplane with tree wings and that must be an American airplane sold to the Polish Army - a new F16, of a sort, another 'failed construction'.
Lyzko
13 Apr 2011 #187
....and "wing" is a still-extant old Germanic word, alive and well in each of the Nordic languages, i.e. Danish, Swedish, Icelandic, Faeroese and Norwegian. It means of course the same as it does in English, only it's spelled with a "v".
Ziemowit 12 | 3,610
13 Apr 2011 #188
There you are, Ziemowit, "(sich)anmelden" = (za)anmeldować się etc...

You are right, we don't have any Slavic counterpart for "(za)meldować się". I think the Russians will say "registrirovat'sja" for that, so it would be a "western" word either.

What has come to my mind now is the word 'umbrella' in both languages. In Polish, it is 'parasol' [masculine] / 'parasolka' [feminine], obviosly of French origin. In Russian it is 'zont'ik' - sounds quite strange to me as a word of Slavic origin. In English, the word obviosly follows the French word "ombrelle" which is 'sunshade'.
AdamKadmon 2 | 508
13 Apr 2011 #189
and "wing" is a still-extant old Germanic word

Did the old Germans have military aircraft units?
Lyzko
13 Apr 2011 #190
No, of course not! The word though, as with much techincal jargon in non-English Germanic tongues, can often be a compound root element, i.e. Danish 'beVINGED' = Eng. 'beWINGED' etc... without having to rely on some Latinate-Greek polysyllabic monstrosity. Cf. Icelandic 'sjonvarp'/Eng/ television, a Latin, not Anglo, borrowing, or 'simi' = telegraph, from the Icelandic word for 'wire' etc...

As far as Russian 'zont'ik', the German is 'Regen- or SONNEN (zont ?? perhaps related)schirm', lit. 'sun screen'-:)
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
13 Apr 2011 #191
Too many English words in the Polish language!

hot dogi
...

I don't like that either it's like we're loosing or own language. There's an existing Polish word for it already and if there isn't it can easily be invented. There's no need what so ever to put in word that doesn't sound Polish at all. Offsetting, marketing, outing, coach!!!!! c'mon
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
13 Apr 2011 #192
"Dostalem nowa robote w siapie". (shop/factory)

I know many who would say: "Dostałem nowy dziap w siapie".

On another score, it is fairly risky to project things over the next 50 years. Maybe the whole world will be speaking English by then or conversely........every second Pole, American and Brazilian will have names such as Wsuń Ch*j Wczaj?!
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
13 Apr 2011 #193
hot dogi
drinki
super
puby
filmy prno
sex szopy
sandwicz
laptopy
notebooki

OK, you asked for it:

drink - napój wódczany ("alkohol" is a borrowing!)
pub - gospoda brytyjsko-irlandzka
film prno - taśma obrazkowa nieprzyzwoita
sex shop - sklep płciowo-zabawowy
laptop - liczydło nakolanowe
notebook - liczydło przenośne małe

...shall I continue?

;-p
strzyga 2 | 993
13 Apr 2011 #194
I think I've already posted it somewhere, but...

Julian Tuwim - "Ślusarz"

W łazience coś się zatkało, rura chrapała przeraźliwie, aż do przeciągłego wycia, woda kapała ciurkiem. Po wypróbowaniu kilku domowych środków zaradczych (dłubanie w rurze szczoteczką do zębów, dmuchanie w otwór, ustna perswazja etc.) - sprowadziłem ślusarza.

Ślusarz był chudy, wysoki, z siwą szczeciną na twarzy, w okularach na ostrym nosie. Patrzył spode łba wielkiemi niebieskiemi oczyma, jakimś załzawionym wzrokiem. Wszedł do łazienki, pokręcił krany na wszystkie strony, stuknął młotkiem w rurę i powiedział:

- Ferszlus trzeba roztrajbować.
Szybka ta diagnoza zaimponowała mi wprawdzie, nie mrugnąłem jednak i zapytałem:
- A dlaczego?
Ślusarz był zaskoczony moją ciekawością, ale po pierwszym odruchu zdziwienia, które wyraziło się w spojrzeniu sponad okularów, chrząknął i rzekł:

- Bo droselklapa tandetnie zblindowana i ryksztosuje.
- Aha, powiedziałem, rozumiem! Więc gdyby droselklapa była w swoim czasie solidnie zablindowana, nie ryksztosowała by teraz i roztrajbowanie ferszlusu byłoby zbyteczne?

- Ano chyba. A teraz pufer trzeba lochować, czyli dać mu szprajc, żeby śtender udychtować. Trzy razy stuknąłem młotkiem w kran, pokiwałem głową i stwierdziłem:

- Nawet słychać.
Ślusarz spojrzał dość zdumiony:
- Co słychać?
- Słychać, że śtender nie udychtowany. Ale przekonany jestem, że gdy pan mu da odpowiedni szprajc przez lochowanie pufra, to droselklapa zostanie zablindowana, nie będzie już więcej ryksztosować i, co za tym idzie ferszlus będzie roztrajbowany.

I zmierzyłem ślusarza zimnem, bezczelnem spojrzeniem. Moja fachowa wymowa oraz nonszalancja, z jaką sypałem zasłyszanemi po raz pierwszy w życiu terminami, zbiła z tropu ascetycznego ślusarza. Poczuł, że musi mi czemś zaimponować.

- Ale teraz nie zrobię, bo holajzy nie zabrałem. A kosztować będzie reperacja - wyczekał chwilę, by zmiażdżyć mnie efektem ceny - kosztować będzie... 7 złotych 85 groszy.

- To niedużo, odrzekłem spokojnie. Myślałem, że co najmniej dwa razy tyle. Co się zaś tyczy holajzy, to doprawdy nie widzę potrzeby, aby pan miał fatygować się po nią do domu. Spróbujemy bez holajzy.

Ślusarz był blady i nienawidził mnie. Uśmiechnął się drwiąco i powiedział:
- Bez holajzy? Jak ja mam bez holajzy lochbajtel kryptować? Żeby trychter był na szoner robiony, to tak. Ale on jest krajcowany i we flanszy culajtungu nie ma, to na sam abszperwentyl nie zrobię.

- No wie pan, zawołałem, rozkładając ręce, czegoś podobnego nie spodziewałem się po panu! Więc ten trychter według pana nie jest zrobiony na szoner? Ha, ha, ha! Pusty śmiech mnie bierze! Gdzież on na litość Boga jest krajcowany?

- Jak to, gdzie? warknął ślusarz. Przecież ma kajlę na uberlaufie!
Zarumieniłem się po uszy i szepnąłem wstydliwie:
- Rzeczywiście. Nie zauważyłem, że na uberlaufie jest kajla. W takim razie - zwracam honor: bez holajzy ani rusz.
I poszedł po holajzę. Albowiem z powodu kajli na uberlaufie trychter rzeczywiście robiony był na szoner, nie zaś krajcowany, i bez holajzy w żaden sposób nie udałoby się zakryptować lochbajtel w celu udychtowania pufra i dania mu szprajcy przez lochowanie śtendra, aby roztrajbować ferszlus, który źle działa, że droselklapę tandetnie zablindowano i teraz ryksztosuje.

A dla niewtajemniczonych słowniczek

abszerwentyl: Absperrventil - zawór odcinający
calujtung: Zeitung? (gazeta)
droselklapa: Drosselklappe - zawór motylkowy (w samochodach przepustnica)
ferszlus: Verschluss - zamek, zamknięcie
holajza: Hohleisen - dłuto (żłobak)
kajla: Keil - klin
lochbajtel: Lochbeitel - dłuto gniazdowe, przysiek
lochować: lochen - (prze)dziurawić
pufer: Puffer - zderzak
roztrajbować: vertreiben - rozprowadzić
szprajc: prawdopodobnie od spreizen - rozwierać
trychter: Trichter - lejek
uberlauf: Ueberlauf - przelew, wybieg, nadmiar
udychtować: dichten - uszczelnić

So. It's not even a hundred years later and an average Pole needs a dictionary to understand this. Just as a Latin dictionary comes in handy when reading 18th c literature. With so much experience, the English deluge is no problem at all.
Lyzko
14 Apr 2011 #196
The difference though between the Germanic 'invasion' of Polish and the Anglo-American, is merely a question of social taste as well as reputation; German is/was the traditonal language of serious scholarship, science, etc..., hence it was considered a sign of both class/prviledge to use, i.e. speak German. English/"American" is/was considered the doughboy tongue of semi-illiterates, crass commercialism and sub-mental entertainment etc..

Now you tell me; which language has greater class (...if not appeal)??
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
14 Apr 2011 #197
German is/was the traditional language of serious scholarship, science, etc..., hence it was considered a sign of both class/prviledge to use, i.e. speak German.

Carefully re-read Julian Tuwim's story as quoted by Strzyga above, and then tell me where exactly in it you see the classy, scholarly, and scientific application of German loanwords.

English/"American" is/was considered the doughboy tongue of semi-illiterates, crass commercialism and sub-mental entertainment etc..

Where do you get these outlandish ideas from?
convex 20 | 3,978
14 Apr 2011 #198
Carefully re-read Julian Tuwim's story as quoted by Strzyga above, and then tell me where exacty in it you see the classy, scholarly, and scientific application of German loanwords.

Szlafrok, the pinnacle of sophistication.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
14 Apr 2011 #199
No no - szlafmyca is the pinnacle.
Lyzko
14 Apr 2011 #200
You're right, Madźiu, industrial/technological, not merely commercial, you've got me there.
And yes, I re-read the Tuwim text and in fact the 'Germanisms' represent a melange of high as well as low-level registers. The reputation of German as a language though, remains undiminshed-:)
strzyga 2 | 993
15 Apr 2011 #201
German is/was the traditonal language of serious scholarship, science, etc..., hence it was considered a sign of both class/prviledge to use, i.e. speak German.

English is the traditonal language of serious business, modern technology and science, etc..., hence it is considered a sign of both class/privilege to use, i.e. speak English.

Here, fixed that for you ;)

English/"American" is/was considered the doughboy tongue of semi-illiterates, crass commercialism and sub-mental entertainment etc..

And this coming from a man constantly mourning the decline of Shakespeare's and Wordsworth's tongue? :D

Now you tell me; which language has greater class (...if not appeal)??

I don't know about class, but in a couple of decades Chinese may have the most appeal.
Lyzko
15 Apr 2011 #202
English as the (traditional) language of technology and science, is strictly a post-WWII affare, my good friend-:) As far as "getting me" that time, you've in fact merely proved my point, that the advent of language use as a status symbol corresponds almost entirely with the quality of the speakers of the language, i.e. its users.

At least the English have "traditionally" a far higher standard of language preservation and cultivated usage than us Yanks, n'est pas?
rybnik 18 | 1,462
16 Apr 2011 #203
I'm watching TVP and a commercial for a magazine comes on touting the great "last minute" Wielkanocne przepisy...............Ugh!
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
16 Apr 2011 #204
"ofsajd". the latest one that had me laughing.
Magdalena 3 | 1,837
16 Apr 2011 #205
"last minute" Wielkanocne przepisy...............Ugh!

Calm down or you'll give yourself a heart attack ;-)

"ofsajd". the latest one that had me laughing.

Too late to laugh now. Ofsajd has been renamed "spalony" a heck of a long time ago.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
16 Apr 2011 #206
Calm down or you'll give yourself a heart attack ;-)

I know. I know :)
FUZZYWICKETS 8 | 1,884
16 Apr 2011 #207
Magdalena wrote:

Too late to laugh now. Ofsajd has been renamed "spalony" a heck of a long time ago.

too late?

then apparently ofsajd.onet.pl hasn't got the memo yet about the change.
boletus 30 | 1,366
16 Apr 2011 #208
It's not even a hundred years later and an average Pole needs a dictionary to understand this.

Or this:

ENGLISH/ POLISH/ DUTCH

Sailing points/ Kursy/ Zeirichtingen

close-hauled / bajdewind / aan de wind
beam-reach / półwiatr / halve wind
broad-reach / baksztag / ruime wind
down-wind / fordewind / voor de wind

Rigging/ Osprzęt i takielunek/ Onderdelen van een boot

mast / maszt / mast
spreaders / salingi / zalingen
boom / bom / giek
centreboard/ miecz / zwaard
rudder / ster / roer
main sail / grot / grootzeil
jib / fok / fok
spinnaker / spinaker / spinnaker
forestay / stag / voorstag
backstay / achtersztag / hekstag / Achterstag (GERMAN)
running backstay/ baksztag / backstage
shroud / wanta / (staat) want
halyard / val / fał
sheet / szot / schoot
guy / bras / loefschoot
spinnaker pole/ spinakerbom/ spinakerboom
camcleat / knaga / klemkikker

From:
ilo.org/public/french/snl/nautica/dictionary.pdf
strzyga 2 | 993
17 Apr 2011 #209
then apparently ... hasn't got the memo yet about the change.

The word has an archaic sound to it and is rarely used now. Watch any football game and you'll hear "spalony". Can be used, however, in the same way as "automobile" can be used instead of "car" in English.

There's a Polish saying: od przybytku głowa nie boli.

ENGLISH/ POLISH/ DUTCH

and these are still in use, a big headache if you don't know the first thing about sailing.
boletus 30 | 1,366
17 Apr 2011 #210
Yes I know that they are still in use, but not where I am now. New Polonia is not familiar with it. This is a big headache to unlearn the middle column if one used it for years. Most of them are foreign anyway, with few exceptions, such as "ostrzyć", "odpadać" and few more.

I cannot find any link now, but I was told long time ago that in early 20s Mariusz Zaruski and others were seriously considering replacement of all the Dutch/English/German terminology by its Polish equivalent, but they had to give up after few unfortunate choices.

He helped to establish the Marine Terminology Commission which included representatives from Marine Academy and Universities. The Commission edited six volumes of the Polish - English - French - German - Russian Marine Dictionary. In Poland, before the Second World War, boy scouts movement was important part of marine educations among Polish youth.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mariusz_Zaruski


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