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Too many English words in the Polish language!


Lyzko 25 | 7,139
8 Nov 2015 #661
As interesting for me as a foreigner who studied Polish is the presence of numerous Latinate words with highly divergent meanings in English, e.g. "dymisia" (resignation), "postulat" (determination) etc.. In English a "dismissal" is not a "resignation", nor a "postulate" a "determination".

Polish does use "outsourcing" and "brainstorming", though doubtless there is a Polish equivalent somewhere:-) I suppose in the end it's rather much like using "origami" in English instead of the cumbersome "Japanese folded paper shapes.." which sounds (and looks) pretty ridiculous!
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
8 Nov 2015 #662
numerous Latinate words

It's itneresting that Polish uses a lot of Latin-derived toponyms including Moguncja - Mainz, Akwizgran - Aachen, Tamiza - Thames, Sekwana - Seine, etc.
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
8 Nov 2015 #663
Indeed, Polonius! I'd neglected to mention those:-)
bunensis
9 Nov 2015 #664
"No language is freeze-framed in the past -- but this is a quesiton of unnecessary and redundant borrowings which the language can do without."

And who is the authority that determines that ?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Nov 2015 #665
who is the authorit

Every conscious user. I will never use destynacja, 20 do jedenastej, dwa w jednym or od Wedel.
A few years back a Language Police was set up. They wanted to do away with English shop signs and replace them with Polish ones. They haven't been heard from in quite some time. The Académie Française are also having a hard time combating franglais...
Ziemowit 13 | 4,217
9 Nov 2015 #666
stamajza

- I don't know what it is.

waserwaga

- I don't know what it is.

20 do jedenastej

- No one tells the hour this way in Poland, well at least those with the well-functioning brain.

Polish does use "outsourcing" and "brainstorming", though doubtless there is a Polish equivalent somewhere:-)

'Outsourcing' is very common, though in more formal texts you would see "wynajęcie firmy zewnętrznej" or "usługa zewnętrzna". 'Brainstorming' is totally uncommon among sane people in Poland. The widely used term is 'burza mózgów'.
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
9 Nov 2015 #667
I've heard both for "brainstorming", actually:-) Guess it depends on how one measures sanityLOL
Ziemowit 13 | 4,217
9 Nov 2015 #668
Guess it depends on how one measures sanity

I don't know how you measure it, but I measure it by how much common sense one has

By the way, the language of Europe which has been influenced most by another language is ... English. And to the degree that even some famous Frenchman called it 'French pronounced badly'.
Polsyr 6 | 769
9 Nov 2015 #669
Polish does use "outsourcing"

I hear "consulting" a lot.
Also hear "peeling" often.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Nov 2015 #670
No one tells the hour this way in Poland

You apparently never watch the news on TVN24. One news reader says that all the time.
Amongst joiners of the older generation a sztamajza (łom or dłuto) is what a crowbar or chisel is called.
Waserwaga (pziomica) is a spirit level.
After the war the commie regime tried to de-Germanise Polish. For instance, manufacturers of colanders were ordered to call them a cedzak rather than the widely used druszlak.
delphiandomine 85 | 18,359
9 Nov 2015 #671
You apparently never watch the news on TVN24.

...Did Polly just admit to watching TVN24?!

In Polish it should have been obywaciel like przyjaciel.

That's interesting about obywatel, though thinking about it, it's always been a clumsy word for me to pronounce.

What is interesting is just how much influence German had on Polish, while Russian appears to have had little to no influence beyond the PRL newspeak.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Nov 2015 #672
watching TVN24?!

I switch between TVP Info and TVN24 and actually check out the Selective Gazette. Their online set-up is more user friendly than Rzepa's. Also Nasz Dziennik, Polityka, Wprost, Niedziela, TV Republika, Polska the Times, Krytyka Polityczna and others. How else can get a feel for the country without knowing what both decent Poles and the PiS-bashers are doing?
Lyzko 25 | 7,139
9 Nov 2015 #673
@Ziemowit,

You're referring to old quip attributed to Voltaire who once commented to a friend who suggested he learn English for his first voyage to England, "But my dear! What is English anyway but French spoken badly?"

:-)

@Polsyr,

Must be tough for Poles especially distinguishing "peeling" from "pilling", such as happens to the thread of a sweater with overuseLOL
Ziemowit 13 | 4,217
9 Nov 2015 #674
No one tells the hour this way in Poland ...

You apparently never watch the news on TVN24. One news reader says that all the time.

Precisely the said news reader does not belong to the category of

... those with the well-functioning brain.

Amongst joiners of the older generation a sztamajza (łom or dłuto) is what a crowbar or chisel is called.

I know 'łom' and I know 'dłuto', but I have never heard 'sztamajza'.

Waserwaga (poziomica) is a spirit level.

I know 'poziomica' very well, but I very occasionaly heard 'waserwaga' and never knew what the speaker was talking about despite knowing what 'wasser' means in German and what 'waga' means in Polish.

manufacturers of colanders were ordered to call them a cedzak rather than the widely used druszlak.

'Druszlak' is 'durszlak', though some say 'druszlak', but it is very rare and not proper.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
9 Nov 2015 #675
not proper

It's a generational thing. Thsoe raised in PRL accepted the de-germanised words as their own. Their parents' and grandparents' generation often used the ones they were brought up with.

Prior tot eh OSldiarity era everybody said Związek Radziecki abnd socjaliznm, not Sowiety and komuna. In the West slang and colloquial speech are largely shaped by pop culture, in the East ideolgoy played a big part.
Polsyr 6 | 769
10 Nov 2015 #676
In the news: doping.
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
11 Nov 2015 #677
doping

That's still not as bad as the made-up French term footing (for jogging).
A joke goes that two Poles travelled to England not knowing a word of English.They saw a sign that said NO SMOKING. One asked the other: "What does it mean?" "I'm not sure but I think ti means your'e not allowed in wearing a dinner jacket."
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Nov 2015 #678
@Pol: what about "French" words made up by Brits/Americans? Among others: pie "à la mode", to eat a "casserole", or to "sautee" potatoes... which no native speaker of French would understand. I know that English language consits of several thousands of French words and that some of them have changed their meanings over the centuries (for instance: mercy, to demand, ...) but the made up "French" by English speakers don't make much sense. I for instance Wonder how the hell one can eat a .... "casserole", which means "saucepan" in French ;).

PS: I don't also understand why a lot of English speakers call "aubergine" which they could call "eggplant" ;)
jon357 63 | 15,309
11 Nov 2015 #679
what about "French" words made up by Brits/Americans?

Loads of those, going back centuries. Phrases like 'Court of Oyer and Terminer' which reflect the Norman French heritage of the medieval upper class. The pronunciation is often a sign of social status and education (foyer pronounced fwayea or how a Brit would read it).

Poland has such borrowings too - etui for example. In Arabic, a lift is asensor.

Languages are inherently eclectic - they're about communication after all. They all suck in and use vocabulary from other languages and this is entirely natural. Just don't tell the Academie Francaise!

PS: I don't also understand why a lot of English speakers call "aubergine" which they could call "eggplant" ;)

In America, they grow them and have their own name, eggplant. In Britain they were mostly unknown until the seventies (posh London restaurants used to make ratatouille with cabbage!) and the only people who knew aubergines were those who'd seen them on holiday on the Cotes d'Azur, hence we use the French name.

Same with courgettes and zucchini (cukinia).

I wonder if there are many words that have come into Polish from English but are actually borrowings from French.

Edit, thinking of names of fruit and veg, the Polish word awokado comes directly from the English avocado which is actually a name made up by American marketing executives in the 60s. Based on a South American Indian word that is pronounced completely different but isn't as unappealing and marketing-unfriendly as the original name in the English language.
Polsyr 6 | 769
11 Nov 2015 #680
dinner jacket

Haha, good one, and FYI, in some Arabic speaking communities the word "smoking" means the same thing.

In Arabic, a lift is asensor.

There is a proper Arabic word (mas'ad) , but not many people use it.

Now guess what is the origin of the following words:
bakłażan
filiżanka
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Nov 2015 #681
Yes, Jon, and unless one lives in a place like North Korea, words travel around and each language is influenced by a lot of languages. Re Poland and French, I assume it comes from Napoleon (a lot more French words in Russian) and also because French was the aristocrats' s and other higher classes's language.

In English, you even have ... "Honi soit qui mal y pense!", if it isn't French, what is it??? The "Royals" speak very good French. Also, words such beef, veal, mutton, pork... come from French....
jon357 63 | 15,309
11 Nov 2015 #682
filizanka = Turkish?
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
11 Nov 2015 #683
Indeed, Karłowicz & Co. list the Turkish words filiżan or findżan (Polish phonetic rendering) as its source.
BTW did you know no native Polish word or name ever starts with the letter "f". Names (Filip, Franciszek, Fabian, Felicjan) and words (fontanna, fala, fiołek, farmazon, fotografia, filc, etc.) are all foreign loanwords.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Nov 2015 #684
@Pol: interesting especially re letter "f". My (Polish) last name starts with "f" and according to my husband, it could be of Hungarian origin but somewhat "polonized". Sorry, I don't want to give my name in public as my husband's paternal grandfather was extremely famous (not only in Poland).

Yes but to be on the safe side, I'll give you clues and since you are a smart guy, you'll guess. No worry, the guy was a good catholic and anything else you like ;).
Ziemowit 13 | 4,217
11 Nov 2015 #685
In English, you even have ... "Honi soit qui mal y pense!", if it isn't French, what is it???

It is Old French. And it is quite easy to understand by anyone who knows Modern French. In Modern French it would mean: "Honte à celui qui y voit du mal".

The difficult part for you could be: "honi soit qui" (should really be 'honni soit', as it comes from the verb 'honnir'). So it is: 'shamed be he who ..'.

In modern English the maxim means: "May he be shamed who thinks badly of it".

BTW did you know no native Polish word or name ever starts with the letter "f".

It is because the letter 'f' did not exist in 'original' Polish (at least in maedieval Polish as we know it from the scripts). Thus, a name like 'Stefan' was assimilated in the form of 'Szczepan' with the letter 'p' replacing the letter 'f'.
rozumiemnic 8 | 3,881
11 Nov 2015 #686
I wonder if there are many words that have come into Polish from English but are actually borrowings from French.

well as about half of English was corrupted from the French of the ruling classes, I should think so.

Interesting point about the meat words in English inPolska - 'our' meat words are 'your' animal words - can one deduce from this that only the ruling classes ate meat? (one exeption is rabbit i think)
jon357 63 | 15,309
11 Nov 2015 #687
Interesting point about the meat words in English inPolska - 'our' meat words are 'your' animal words - can one deduce from this that only the ruling classes ate meat? (one exeption is rabbit i think)

Yes. The peasants raised the animals, the ruling class, and the educated - often monks (there were a lot of them) spoke Norman French.

Some similarities in Polish.
InPolska 11 | 1,821
11 Nov 2015 #688
Yes, Rozu! In those days, when Normands were in GB, Britons raised animals but did not eat meat wheras Normands did. Therefore, English peasants took the French words for meat and adapted them as per their pronouncation and spelling (pork for "porc", beef for "bœuf", veal for "veau", mutton for "mouton"..).
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
11 Nov 2015 #689
the guy was a good catholic

If he was a Hindu or atheist that would not affect langustic analysis of his name. If it OK for me to answer your query here?
Polsyr 6 | 769
11 Nov 2015 #690
filizanka = Turkish?

Correct, also bakłażan. Both words also somewhat similar to the Arabic words (Finżan and Badhenżan). In the case of filiżanka, the Turks took the word from the Arabs, but in the case of bakłażan, the jury is out.


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