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Biernik czy narzędnik (Accusative or Instrumental)


Havok 10 | 912
23 Nov 2011 #31
Proszę małą kawą.

Poproszę małą kawe

Pije wodę mineralną z cytrynę

Pije wodę mineralną z cytryną
Lyzko
24 Nov 2011 #32
Także "Proszę o (małą) kawę.", nieprawda?

-:)

I've used "Poproszę" though as well.
catsoldier 62 | 595
24 Nov 2011 #33
"Proszę o (małą) kawę.", nieprawda?

After o why don't you use locative. eg. mówimy o kawie.? We are talking about coffee.
strzyga 2 | 993
24 Nov 2011 #34
As others have already told you, it should be wysokiego mężczyznę and polskie piwo, the rest is fine.
Mężczyzna ends with -a but is masculine (as kolega) and piwo ends with -o so is neuter.

Lyzko: "Proszę o (małą) kawę.", nieprawda?After o why don't you use locative. eg. mówimy o kawie.? We are talking about coffee.

Seems that's a different o, like there are two kinds of z.
In English that would be, relatively, for and about:
proszę / walczę / staram się o kawę, sukces, uczucie - I'm asking for / fighting for / striving for... - Acc.
mówimy / śpiewamy / piszemy / myślimy o kawie, matce, książce - we're talking/singing/writing/thinking about... - Instrumental
catsoldier 62 | 595
25 Nov 2011 #35
Thanks Strzyga. The examples were a great help, I understand now.
strzyga 2 | 993
25 Nov 2011 #36
mówimy / śpiewamy / piszemy / myślimy o kawie, matce, książce - we're talking/singing/writing/thinking about... - Instrumental

ofc it's Locative, not Instrumental, sorry, but you'd know it anyway :)
catsoldier 62 | 595
3 Jan 2012 #39
.........pod choinką

or

.........pod choinkę

which is correct and why?

Co dostałeś/łaś pod choinkę? Looks like accusative

pod stołem is nardzędnik

after pod we use nardzędnik usually?
strzyga 2 | 993
3 Jan 2012 #40
zacznę od końca:

pod takes narzędnik - pod kim, czym - pod stołem, pod choinką (pod choinką leżą prezenty) - when talking about location; something is located under something else. The question is where.

gospoda Pod Mocnym Aniołem - from a book by Jerzy Pilch
it's a traditional type of name for inns, pubs etc. - Pod Smokiem, Pod Jaszczurami, Pod Pijakiem, etc. (under the sign of...)

but: co dostałeś pod choinkę?
treat it as a fixed phrase, "for Christmas", the same as: co dostałeś na urodziny/na rocznicę ślubu/na Gwiazdkę/na zakończenie szkoły... etc.

then it's Accusative.

So, co dostałeś pod choinkę, catsoldier? :)
catsoldier 62 | 595
3 Jan 2012 #41
So, co dostałeś pod choinkę, catsoldier? :)

Nic ciekawego ałe bawiłem się dobrze. Nothing interesting but I had a good time.

Thanks for your help.
Lyzko
5 Jan 2012 #42
German also has those kinds of 'multi-rectional' prepositions, e.g. "unter", "auf" = "pod", "na" etc.. "Pod choinkę" to be honest didn't look that strange to me at first, since I simply figured, without translating, but rather, trying to think IN Polish, it makes all sorts of sense.

)))
brzmibrzmi - | 18
10 Oct 2012 #43
Merged: Accusative or Instrumental Case

Can I ask anyone to check these answers to these:

I have to put the correct forms in the blanks... (my answers are in bold)

1. Kiedy czekam na autobus, czesto spotykam z nim. (Marek).
2. Lubie spotykac sie ze znajomymi i rozmawiac z mini o polityce. (znajomy - liczba mnoga).
3. Marek czesto chodzi do klubu i zawsze spotyka tam przyjacielami. (przyjaciel - liczba mnoga).
4. Teraz mam czas i szesto spotykam sie z przyjaciolami (przyjaciel - liczba mnoga).

In my book it has the folowing text in a box...

UWAGA!

nie planuje spotkania
spotykac + biernik
znajomych
kolegow
przyjaciol

planuje
spotkanie
spotykac sie + narzednik
ze znajomymi
z kolegami
z przyjaciolmi

What is this trying to tell me. Does it mean that if I plan to meet (in this example), I use verb + instrumental case. If I don't plan to meet I use verb + accusative? I'm puzzled. Can anyone give any examples...
strzyga 2 | 993
10 Oct 2012 #44
1. Kiedy czekam na autobus, czesto spotykam z nim. (Marek).

spotykam go or spotykam się z nim

2. Lubie spotykac sie ze znajomymi i rozmawiac z mini o polityce. (znajomy - liczba mnoga).

ok

3. Marek czesto chodzi do klubu i zawsze spotyka tam przyjacielami. (przyjaciel - liczba mnoga).

przyjaciół

4. Teraz mam czas i szesto spotykam sie z przyjaciolami (przyjaciel - liczba mnoga).

z przyjaciółmi (that one' a bit irregular)

Does it mean that if I plan to meet (in this example), I use verb + instrumental case. If I don't plan to meet I use verb + accusative? I'm puzzled. Can anyone give any examples...

One thing is that spotykać kogoś and spotykać się z kimś take two different cases - respectively, Acc and Instr.
Another is that negation changes the case into Gen.
widzę stół (Acc) - nie widzę stołu (Gen)
planuję spotkanie (Acc) - nie planuję spotkania (Gen)
jem jabłko (Acc) - nie jem jabłka (Gen)

Planuję spotkanie z Markiem - nie planuję spotkania z Markiem.
In this sentence, the case of "spotkanie" changes from Acc to Gen.
The instrumental "z Markiem" remains the same.

Planuję spotkać się z Markiem - nie planuję spotkać się z Markiem.
Here "spotkać się" is a verb so there's no case change.
brzmibrzmi - | 18
10 Oct 2012 #45
thank you stryga!

I'll have few more questions I'm sure!
Lyzko
10 Oct 2012 #46
ale: "Widzę psy/koty (NOT: psów/kotów!!!) na drodze." Here accusative, because "pies" and "kot"are virile, NON-HUMAN, animate masculine nouns. cf. "brat", "ojciec" or "nauczyciel", to name but a few random virile HUMAN animate masculine nouns:-)
brzmibrzmi - | 18
13 Oct 2012 #47
....so... what is the different between

Planuję spotkanie z Markiem - nie planuję spotkania z Markiem.

and

Planuję spotkać się z Markiem - nie planuję spotkać się z Markiem.

Here "spotkać się" is a verb

I get that spotkac sie is a verb, but what is 'spotkanie/spotkanie' in the first example?
strzyga 2 | 993
13 Oct 2012 #48
what is the different betweenPlanuję spotkanie z Markiem - nie planuję spotkania z Markiem.andPlanuję spotkać się z Markiem - nie planuję spotkać się z Markiem.

Practically none. The first one sounds a little better but the difference is neglectable. Very often there's more than one way to say something in Polish.

I get that spotkac sie is a verb, but what is 'spotkanie/spotkanie' in the first example?

a noun
Think: a meeting vs to meet - the same story, a noun and a verb. I'm planning a meeting with Mark vs I'm planning to meet Mark.
Lyzko
13 Oct 2012 #49
As with biernik, narzędnik collocates with certain verbs in Polish with which either one (or even BOTH!!) of these two cases is required, cf. German "two-way" prepositions with which certain verbs are governed by either the Dative or AccusativeLOL

Sticking to Polish however, I still have to think for a moment whether or not a particular verb requires which case, e.g. "interesować się" = to be interested in or "władać" = to master:

Interesuję się językiem polskim. = I'm interested in Polish.
Władam kilkoma językami. = I've mastered several languages.
etc..
brzmibrzmi - | 18
14 Oct 2012 #50
... ok i have another question relating to the Nominative/ Instrumental cases.

I understand that words I look up in a dictionary are in the nominative case. that's fine. And they usually answer the questions of 'Kto' 'Co'.

For the Instrumental, I believe it's 'Kim' 'Czym'.

So, when I say 'I am English' I say 'Jestem Anglikiem', and 'You are Polish' 'Jestes Polakiem/Polką'. I undestand that good, BUT if say 'Peter is handsome' it is 'Piotr jest przystojny' is przystojny in the nominative case, or instrumental. and 'Adam is a boy' it becomes 'Adam jest chłopakiem'.

I undestand that the Instrumental case is used in relation to the verb 'to be'. so, if i had statements such as ..

He is ....for example nice...?on jest mily
She is ...ona jest mila
They are ..."
We are ..."
It is ..."
I am ..." the adjectives that follow are ALWAYS in the instrumental case?

I did't think I had so much trouble with this, but any comments would be appreciated!!!
strzyga 2 | 993
15 Oct 2012 #51
So, when I say 'I am English' I say 'Jestem Anglikiem', and 'You are Polish' 'Jestes Polakiem/Polką'. I undestand that good, BUT if say 'Peter is handsome' it is 'Piotr jest przystojny' is przystojny in the nominative case, or instrumental. and 'Adam is a boy' it becomes 'Adam jest chłopakiem'.

The rules are different for nouns and adjectives, and you're mixing them up here, hence the confusion.
In English, "English" and "Polish" are adjectives (I am English, I am Polish).
But in Polish you use the words Anglik/Polak, which are nouns, so in this sentence they take Instrumental.

Jestem + Noun --> Instrumental
Jestem + Adjective --> Nominative
Jestem + Adjective + Noun --> Instrumental

so it's:
Jestem chłopakiem
Jestem przystojny
Jestem przystojnym chłopakiem.

The case of the adjective is determined by the presence/absence of a noun. When a noun follows, the adjective takes the same case as the noun. If there's no noun and the adjective stands by itself, then it's in the Nominative case.

She is ...ona jest milaThey are ..."We are ..."It is ..."

ona jest miła, ono/to jest miłe, oni są mili, my jesteśmy mili, wy jesteście mili, oni są mili

but: ja jestem miłym chłopcem
ty jesteś miłym chłopcem
on jest miłym chłopcem
my jesteśmy miłymi chłopcami
wy jesteście miłymi chłopcami
oni są miłymi chłopcami

Is it clear now?
Lyzko
15 Oct 2012 #52
In colloquial Polish, one can nonetheless hear (even among educated Poles) "On jest Polak." rather than the grammatically standard "On jest Polakiem."
strzyga 2 | 993
15 Oct 2012 #53
It can happen in lazy speech, but I'd rather expect to hear "To Polak" then.
Lyzko
15 Oct 2012 #54
I as well, Strzyga:-)
brzmibrzmi - | 18
15 Oct 2012 #55
Oh thank you so much stzyga!!!!

That was a fantastic reply. It is so clear now. Please forgive me for asking so many elementary questions. I like to understand and always like to perservere!

Thanks again strzyga.... more questions will follow

(and thanks to everyone else who's posted their helpful comments) :-)
strzyga 2 | 993
15 Oct 2012 #56
Please forgive me for asking so many elementary questions.

No worries, Chrząszcz - ask until you're sure you understand. It's the most sensible part of the forum anyway :) Just remember you owe me a beer when you get your B next year!
brzmibrzmi - | 18
15 Oct 2012 #57
I won't forget!!! There's only another five or six cases to get my head round. I'm well under way (re)learning my vocabulary for the re-sit....

Something totally unrelated,,,, but what does 'Może być' mean. I often hear it being said by Polish. If it's nonsense please ignore...

ask until you're sure you understand

so.... if I want to say 'I am lazy' (which i'm not :-). It would be Jestem leniwy (nominative as it's an adjective).

They are lazy would be 'Oni są leniwy'.

They are lazy people 'Oni sa leniwym ludzym' (adjective + noun)?

I will get this!
strzyga 2 | 993
16 Oct 2012 #58
what does 'Może być' mean. I often hear it being said by Polish.

"It will do" or "ok". Acceptance, but not very enthusiastic.

Jestem leniwy (nominative as it's an adjective).

right

They are lazy would be 'Oni są leniwy'.

leniwi - it's plural

They are lazy people 'Oni sa leniwym ludzym' (adjective + noun)?

leniwymi ludźmi

I will get this!

You will :)
brzmibrzmi - | 18
16 Oct 2012 #59
brzmibrzmi:
They are lazy people 'Oni sa leniwym ludzym' (adjective + noun)?

leniwymi ludźmi

Hi strzyga. Just a real quick question. in the above 'leniwymi ludzmi', why does ludzmi not end in '-ami', as in 'ludzami'? I'm using Hurra!!! Po Polsku 1 and in an Narzednkik: Liczba Mnoga table it has

koncowki

adjective/przymiotnik
-ymi
-k, -g + -imi

noun/rzeczownik
-ami

How come the noun ending (people) is not 'ludzami'. Am I missing something here. Soz for the trivial question.
strzyga 2 | 993
16 Oct 2012 #60
How come the noun ending (people) is not 'ludzami'. Am I missing something here. Soz for the trivial question.

It might be trivial but I've no idea - it just is so :)
Well, probably some phonetical/morphological/historical processes are responsible for the irregularity, I suppose it might have something to do with the palatalization of "z" (or, rather, "dz") into ź/dź, but I'm no expert on Polish historical grammar so I won't even try to explain it.

All I can say is, Polish's full of irregularities. Accept it, memorize it, love it - or leave it :)


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