Need advice on how to improve Polish language skills

Gumishu, Marysia meant a single sound and she was right in this respect.
Even you will not support "ći", will you?


Bullshit, excuse my Romanian. You want me to turn my recording studio on?

ranrod, there was time in Polish history when soldiers in streets were giving citizen a shibboleth, requesting them to speak a phrase in Polish. Who could not pronounce the phrase properly, he was killed as a mutineer. You would be the first one ;)

you don't put such letters together - 'i' in Polish ortography (save for some foreign extracted words) serves a palatilasation agent so if you write

'cisza' you have a palatalized 'c' which is the same as 'ć' (or roughly the same) - you don't need to write ćisza (and polish ortography rules advise against it)

I know some Chinese: the qi in Chinese is a difficult one to learn. It requires a certain mouth shape to say correctly. It's hard to explain. I didn't think the 'cz' in Polish did that. I'll listen for it now that I have a comparison.

No they are not.

If you back on the previous page you will see that I've already told you the difference between ć and ci. It's not the difference in pronounciation it's only about spelling. Ci makes it's own syllabe.

Let's use another example. If you say -rebię (foal) you have 2 syllabe word: -re-bię. But if you made a mistake and write Zirebię (such word doesn't exist) - you have 3 syllabe word Zi-re-bię. And that's the only difference between letters with accent and letters with i. Therefore "ći" makes no sense!

Who told you that there is a difference in pronounciation of ć and ci???


Utter gibberish. But if you want to live under illusion you know better then go on. Be ignorant.

I meant it as a pronunciation exercise, not as an orthographic rule. To determine if there 'would' be such a difference where you to force yourself to put them together. Do you mean, it would be too difficult or weird to pronounce?

You have not answered my qestion, ranrod. Why don't you q-words without following "u"? This is English.
We never combine 'ći' because it is a nonsense. This is Polish.
..
Here, Stefan Friedman speaks evidently bad Polish:

"Pacz pan jaki chitrus" (Patrz pan, jaki chytrus).
Friedman would be able to speak "ći", I'm sure.

Ranrod you must understand that there is no difference in pronounciation of ci and ć. It's absolutely the same sound. The only difference is that one makes its own single syllabe and the second one doesn't. Gumishiu gave you an exellent example:

ćpa and cipa. Two words two meanings. The only difference in pronounciation is the amount of syllabes.

Sorry if I offended you... I'm sure that event you describe isn't something anyone is proud of.

We're getting down to the nitty gritty. So exactly how does 'cz' differ from 'ć'? I really thought there wasn't a difference, but the conviction of the responders is making me doubt my previous conclusions. Some appear only in certain combinations. As we've all noted, 'i' doesn't follow 'cz' or 'ć'. Does 'e' ever follow 'ć'? My conclusion had been that it was the letters that follow the 'cz', 'ć' or 'c', not the pronunciation of them themselves. That if you did, force an 'i' after a 'ć' it would not be different from 'ci'. 'ć' is normally followed by a consonant or 'ś'. You never see 'ćsz', right?

So how does ćś differ from czsz?

Whilst I applaud anyone who wants to better themselves, with respect don't you think you are setting your standards a little bit too high and maybe you should think more about communication rather than perfection?

I have been here for 12 years and can communicate my meaning and constructively enter into a discussion explaining myself in Polish, but that took a long time and 18 months is a comparatively short period for such a complex language as Polish.

Try to involve yourself in daily Polish life as much as possible as I think learnt more down my local pub than I did with any text books or courses.

By any description of the word I am not perfect in Polish whatsoever and I still rely on my wife for official purposes just to be 100% sure, such as legal offices and such like.

Most of all good luck and don't beat yourself up too much as it will come, and with your dedication you will most probably be much better than myself ;0)

There is a big differnece. For example czapa (a cap) and ciapa (a wimp).


Yes. Now you're right.

ćisza and cisza are pronounced the same - but many poeple can be confused as to how should one pronounced ćisza because Poles are not accusstomed to such a way of writing - as i said before 'ć' is redundant there

ah, so 'ć' = 'ci'?
I notice in 'ci' the 'i' sounds more prominently than 'ć'. In ćpa and cipa, I'd expect the 'i' to sound more prominently in "cipa"

Ranrod, I'm more and more inclined to connect my PC to my recording studio and say couple of sounds for you.

Same as English requires writing "qu", same Polish forbids some letter combinations. "ći" or "ćś" are non-existent, unless you say:

"Zięćśpi" but these are two separate words.
"ć' is followed by a consonant.

"cz" and "ć" are two different sounds. Say "Bydgoszcz", no-one would say "Bydgość" even if this is possible to pronounce. Note: Never "ćś" but there are many words with "ść" such as kość, miłość, dość.

I was talking about the mutiny for one reason. The phrase was: 'Soczewica, koło, miele, młyn". If you said "Soćiewica" then you would be killed because cz is a very distinct sound not to be confused with "ć"...

compare: leszcz (a kind of fish) and teść (a father of a wife)


yes because it makes a single syllabe therefore ci sound is pronounced longer.
ci-pa (chee-pah*)
ćpa (chpa)

*of course English "ch" is differnet than Polish.

This is a little bit of comparing apples vs oranges. 'cza' vs 'ci' - they'll sound different because there's a different vowel after them. The vowel throws the whole thing off. That's why my examples were contrived, because there is no czi in Polish, though I suspected this was becase 'ci' became shorthand for czi.

if you hear a 'ć' in a Polish word (as I said not all foreigners can) and it is followed by an 'e' - then you write it as 'cie'

like in the word 'cień' (shadow)

the same goes for 'ć' and all vowels - 'ć' + 'a' > 'cia' (ciasto - dough; pie); 'ć'+'u' - 'ciu' (ciupa - a prison (dialectic)) and so on and so forth

no. you wanted cz to be compared with ci and the volvel after them is the same - "a". So you have it "cza" and "cia". Do you hear the difference?

But wait a minute, what if you said, "Soćewica"? would it sound different than "Soczewica"? Would "Soćewica" sound like "Sociewica"?

"ćerwiec" sound more like "cierwiec" and less like "czerwiec"?

As gumishu has explained, soćewica => sociewica, exactly. Both words sound completely differently from "soczewica".

Shall I record for you?

'i' in Polish is not always a vowel but sometimes only a palatalizing agent - it makes the consonant before it palatalized ('soft' in Polish)

'i' acts this way (as a palatalising agent) even in cases it depicts a syllable forming vowel

letts compare a bit - in the word 'ciapa' you don't hear a 'j' (or English 'y') contrary to the Spanish pronounciation of Chiapas - (or contrary even to Polish 'miasto' ('miasto' and 'mjasto' are actually homophones in Polish - another source of possible ortographic mistakes --- 'ciapa' and 'cjapa' (there is not such word as 'cjapa' in Polish) are not homophones - 'i' in Polish ortography has palatalising value while 'j' does not )


Antek - do that if you can - I'm sure it helps ranrod a bit

Antek, gumishiu you are confusing him with this ć+vovel. There is no such things so why do you use such made up examples.

But "Pięć" is not be pronounced like "Pięci" would (if there was such a word).

Think about your English "ch" positioned on a hardness scale between "cz" and "ć" (or long ci)
hard -> softer -> very soft
"cz" -> English "ch" -> "ć"

Same goes with "sz" -> English "sh" -> "ś" (or long "si")

Many English speakers do not hear a difference between "kasza" (groats) and "Kasia" (short for Katarzyna). Poor Kasia is often mistaken for groats.


No. Only consonants are permitted after "ć","ś","ź" or "ń", never vowels: ćma, iść, bańka, prośba, etc...

AS, for non-natives, they sound the same. You ask for contact lenses and you get lentils, LOL. They are similar for us as non-Poles.

Yes because pięć is one syllable and pię-ci is two syllable word

However, as in most languages, sounds can change. For example, pięć and pięćdziesiąt are not the same, much like fashion and able become fashionable (IBLE). Pięć is like pyench and pięćdziesiąt is like pinjishont.

I am yet to meet a foraigner trying to speak Polish.It must be super funny and I can't wait.


How do you do that?Next time ask for soczewki kontaktowe.

To the ear which isn't native, it's very similar, grubas. I hear it now but it took me some time to get used to it.

yes pięć would be pronounced differently to pięci (though no such word or a word form exist) - it is because 'i' is a vowel here (and not just the way to express palatalization - to put an 'accent' over a final 'c' is enough to show it is a 'soft' consonant)

there is a similar actual pair for this 'spięć' - 'spięci' - 'spięć' is a genetive plural of 'spięcie' (a run-in (a shor fight), also a short circuit) and 'spięci' is a plural nominative of past participle of 'spiąć/spinać' (but also acts as an adjective meaning 'stressed' (more or less))

But I must say that Ranrod is right in one thing that many letters surrounding other letters change their sound (how do you say it in English? that some letters make other voiceless?)

Examples:

"rz" is pronounced as "sz" if it's after: k, t, p, ch
examples: przez, potrzeba, krzesło, chrząszcz. Most Poles thinks they pronounce rz in those case because they make their lips as if they were pronouncing it, but in reality it's impossible to pronounce such sound after those letters.

"ę" in many cases is pronounced as simple "e", "eń", "em"
examples: pięć /pieńć/, dziękuję /dzienkuje/, zaczęłam /zaczełam/

w is pronounced as "f" after: "k", "t", "ch"
examples: kwiat, twarz, chwast