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Warsaw Uprising - The Forgotten Soldiers


Paulina 16 | 4,192
28 Jul 2010 #61
As I said...Hitler made it up as he did go along. He had no qualms or problems to be allied with Japan (NO ARYANS!!!) either..

Oh yeah, the Japanese were even worse than the Nazis, as I've heard... Great example...

An allied Poland would had gotten first class treatment too...

BB... For Hitler and the Nazis Slavs were sub-humans and were supposed to be slaves of the German nation. Except for some Polish children who could be introduced into German families and become "germanised".

Poles were higher on "the ladder" than Jews but lower than Western nations, and far lower than Germans, of course.
The French had their resistance and Poles had their resistance. Then why occupation in France and other Western countries was so different than in Poland and in the East? I've watched some documentary (not Polish) and it was said there that Hitler admired Paris, it's architecture and art. Slavs were some primitive savages fot the Nazis and were treated as such.

Of course not, the thought that all that drama and suffering could have been avoided with some smart politics is though stuff. It's easier to believe the history wouldn't had changed one bit...

I think that example of Austria nad Czechoslovakia shows that Hitler wouldn't be satisfied with just a piece of Polish territory if he saw that neither the West nor the Soviet Union would do anything to stop him.

If you generally label Nazism as the worst evil to ever walk the earth you should acknowledge the German experience too...

What do you mean?

Another people who didn't think of the Nazis as the worst evil either??? Can't be...

Yeah, I've heard some veterans there still march in the SS uniforms... (and I've seen photos)

Full stop!

I wouldn't like for my country and my countrymen to colaborate with the Nazis.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #62
BB... For Hitler and the Nazis Slavs were sub-humans and were supposed to be slaves of the German nation.

Only as enemies!

I think that example of Austria nad Czechoslovakia shows that Hitler wouldn't be satisfied

No, the clash with Stalin was unavoidable...Europe wasn't big enough for both of them.
Poland was in the middle...enemy of both...so stupid!

I wouldn't like for my country and my countrymen to colaborate with the Nazis.

Well...ask 6 million Poles if they would think like you if they could had chosen between death and collaboration, I'm fairly sure what the outcome would be. You won't like it!
Paulina 16 | 4,192
28 Jul 2010 #63
Only as enemies!

Or subjects.

No, the clash with Stalin was unavoidable...Europe wasn't big enough of both of them.
Poland was in the middle...enemy of both...so stupid!

:)
Russians say the same :) Only that they argue that Poland should ally with the Soviet Union :)))
And Poles say that it would be like a choice between dżuma (plague) and cholera (cholera) :)
Such a choice is no choice, really...
Even if... I'd go for the Soviet Union...

Well...ask 6 million Poles if they would think like you if they could had chosen between death and collaboration, I'm fairly sure what the outcome would be. You won't like it!

Do you think that those people would like the idea of their compatriots colaborating with people who treated them as animals and killed them without a blink of an eye? Jews, Gypsies and homosexuals didn't have a choice - to colaborate or not to colaborate. They were simply killed.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #64
And Poles say that it would be like a choice between dżuma (plague) and cholera (cholera) :)
Such a choice is no choice, really...

Well, that's the card you were given...nobody says life is fair or rosy!

Oh and in it's time a more powerful Poland had also no qualms to venture into other peoples land..once or two times till Moscow I've heard.

That's the european dice game! Sometimes you are on top, sometimes you are rock bottom.

Do you think that those people would like the idea of their compatriots colaborating with people who treated them as animals and killed them without a blink of an eye?

They would have liked to stay alive!
As so many people did whose governments were smarter...NOTHING could had been worse than what actually happened!
And they were for sure not happy to accompany Jews or Gypsies or homosexuals as most had no great sympathy for them either.
Paulina 16 | 4,192
28 Jul 2010 #65
Well, that's the card you were given...nobody says life is fair or rosy!

And you advocate the worst choice that there could be :)

Oh and in it's time a more powerful Poland had also no qualms to venture into other peoples land..once or two times till Moscow I've heard.

Deflection and being defensive now? ;)
You think that in my opinion it was OK?

That's the european dice game! Sometimes you are on top, sometimes you are rock bottom.

Poles didn't actually intend to wipe out a nation and have other nation as slaves...

They would have liked to stay alive!
As so many people did whose governments were smarter...NOTHING could had been worse than what actually happened!

I can imagine something worse - Polish soldiers hand in hand with the Nazi soldiers.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #66
And you advocate the worst choice that there could be :)

Nope...the worst choice was the choice of the polish politicians to annoy and aggravate the neighbours fully trusting "allies" in London and Paris.

NOTHING could had been worse than that what actually happened to Poland 1939-1989.

Deflection and being defensive now? ;)

Why?
Just showing that this wasn't some "good" against "evil" battle right out of the Lord of the Rings but something what happened around Europe for Millennia now...with even Poland taking part in now and then if they had the means.

Nothing surprisingly new and smarter politicians should had looked at the cards, the realities, the real position and means of Poland and acted accordingly.

I can imagine something worse - Polish soldiers hand in hand with the Nazi soldiers.

So you actually give a sh'it about the mass destruction and 6 million killed Poles?

But if you like it or not, most of these deads would have chosen life to a "heroic" death if asked. If you want to die for Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals you can offer yourself, but don't force your people to do so. The LIFE of your people should be on your mind, not their death, heroic or not!

Stop your moralizing...it's demeaning actually!

I can imagine something worse - Polish soldiers hand in hand with the Nazi soldiers.

PS: The Russians had no problems with it after partitioning Poland with the Germans...they were all smiles!
Paulina 16 | 4,192
28 Jul 2010 #67
Nope...the worst choice was the choice of the polish politicians to annoy and aggravate the neighbours fully trusting "allies" in London and Paris.

Annoy and aggravate... :) What a reason for war... :)
BB, be serious :)
You wrote yourself:

No, the clash with Stalin was unavoidable...Europe wasn't big enough for both of them.

So, I have an impression which I often get with Russians trying to justify what Stalin did - blame the victim. The easiest way...

NOTHING could had been worse than that what actually happened to Poland afte r 1939-1989.

As I wrote - I don't think it could be avoided.

Why?
Just showing that this wasn't some "good" against "evil" battle right out of the Lord of the Rings but something what happened around Europe for Millennia now...Nothing surprisingly new

No, BB, there was no such a big war (world war, you know) in which civilians would be targeted like this and would die in such numbers. It was a terrible war and the inhumanity of the Nazis and their ideology is almost proverbial in Poland.

with even Poland taking part if they had the means.
Nothing surprisingly new and smarter politicians should had looked at the cards, the realities, the real position and means of Poland and acted accordingly.

It's easy to say this, when you know what happened :)

So you actually give a sh'it about the mass destruction and 6 million killed Poles?

I give a sh'it :) If I didn't give a sh'it - it would mean I don't care :) But I care ("I give a sh'it" in English, as far as I know).

But if you like it or not, most of these deads would have chosen life to a "heroic" death if asked. If you want to die for Jews, Gypsies and Homosexuals you can offer yourself, but don't force your people to do so.

BB, I don't force anybody to do anything :) It's my opinion.

The LIFE of your people should be on your mind, not their death, heroic or not!

I'm a Christian - so I believe there is something worse than death. But it's my opinion and I don't force anybody to do anything.

Stop your moralizing...

I can't - it's the way I am, sorry... :P

it's demeaning actually!

?

BB, if you like it or not - only few Poles would agree that Poles should ally with Hitler. For many - it's unthinkable.

PS: The Russians had no problems with it after partitioning Poland with the Germans...they were all smiles!

I know, some Poles still aren't able to forgive them that...
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #68
BB, if you like it or not - only few Poles would agree that Poles should ally with Hitler. For many - it's unthinkable.

Ask the dead!

I know, Poles still aren't able to forgive them that...

Why?
"They weren't THAT bad!" as you said...

;)

I can't - it's the way I am, sorry... :P

*hangs head*
Paulina 16 | 4,192
28 Jul 2010 #69
Ask the dead!

I will - after I die :)

Why?
"They weren't THAT bad!" as you said...

I wrote that some Poles can't forgive them allying with Hitler against Poland.
But that's not everything, of course - there is Katyń, gulags, Syberia and 50 years of communist "paradise" in the shadow of Soviet Union...

*hangs head*

I'm like that with Russians and Poles, so don't feel discriminated ;)
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #70
I'm like that with Russians and Poles, so don't feel discriminated ;)

*feels better now*

;)
z_darius 14 | 3,965
28 Jul 2010 #71
No it was over a city ( Danzig) railway line and highway, in the first phase, until the start of the war, in the second phase Germany wanted the whole Polish Corridor and northern Poland down to about where Bydgoszcz is.

Oh, so if Poles gave up the sliver of land there there would still be second phase. And yet you think it was about him just wanting Danzig and a railroad and highway connecting East Prussia with the rest of Germany. So it wasn't really just about a railway line and one city, was it?
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #72
Hitler made Germans believe everything he did was to right the wrongs, to get Germans "heim in's Reich", to remake the borders of that Treaty of Versailles.

As we now know Hitler would had sacrificed much of the german claims, even Danzig, for polish neutrality/passive support as it would make it much easier for him and the german armies to build up the invasion and fight against Stalin's Russia.

So the "sliver of land" was just a pretence but in another way than you think.
Paulina 16 | 4,192
28 Jul 2010 #73
As we now know

How do you know this?

Hitler would had sacrificed much of the german claims, even Danzig, for polish neutrality/passive support as it would make it much easier for him and the german armies to build up the invasion and fight against Stalin's Russia.

Even if, that could mean the defeat of the Soviet Union and occupation of it's territories, like in Poland. So what about all those Russians, Jews and other nationalities who would die and suffer in the result of this?
convex 20 | 3,930
28 Jul 2010 #74
Hitler had no other plans than to wipe Poland off the map... You know why I think that? Because that's what he f*cking said.
Paulina 16 | 4,192
28 Jul 2010 #75
BB, I told about what you wrote here in this thread to some Russians from the internet. One of them (a son of a WW2 veteran) called you an ordinary facist scum and invited you to Sankt Petersburg to look at Piskariowski cemetery and some other places :P He wrote that nobody will hurt you there anymore so you can come ;) (I just repeat what he wanted to say to you :P).

I wrote to them that you're not a facist, but I'm not sure how to support this anymore ;P
So, could you explain why do you write such things...
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #76
Because that's what he f*cking said.

He played alot of people for fools...if it's any consolation!

How do you know this?

There is some things called history research...you should try some...

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Corridor

One of them (a son of a WW2 veteran) called you an ordinary facist scum

Did his papa told him how many girls he raped and nailed on barn doors on his way to
Berlin?

Didn't think so...can I call him now stalinist/commie scum?

So, could you explain why do you write such things...

What things?

So what about all those Russians, Jews and other nationalities who would die and suffer in the result of this?

I don't think he was overtly concerned about them...
Paulina 16 | 4,192
28 Jul 2010 #77
I'm no historian. So how do you know this? Could you share any links?

Did his papa told him how many girls he raped and nailed on barn doors on his way to
Berlin?

Didn't think so...can I call him now stalinist/commie scum?

Should I repeat this to him?

What things?

For example, that Poland should become an ally of Third Reich or neutral which would make it easier for Hitler to invade the Soviet Union.

I don't think he was overtly concerned about them...

And you?

EDIT:

However, the Polish administration distrusted Hitler...

And rightly so ;)
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #78
I'm no historian. So how do you know this? Could you share any links?

I just edited...
The net is full of new findings, wiki is a good starting point.

Should I repeat this to him?

I wonder if he didn't thought so of this himself...or is your friend a denier of all the russian
atrocities and massacres?

For example, that Poland should become an ally of Third Reich or neutral which would make it easier for Hitler to invade the Soviet Union.

You asked for my opinion even as I told you I'm no Pole...
I think Poland would had fared much better with much less losses of life and complete
destruction if they had allied with one of it's juggernaut neighbours...not aggravating both of them and trusting totally naive far away empty words from London and Paris.

As the historic research shows Hitler WANTED to negotiate and was ready to move in turn for Polish agreements.
That means also that Hitler had NOT the complete destruction of Poland on his mind from the beginning! FACT!

There is alot between ally and neutral. Most countries even in Nazi-occupied Europe didn't fare as bad as Poland.

And you?

I wouldn't be...not as a German of the 30s and 40s, most people weren't.

And rightly so ;)

Yeah...Poland could become totally destroyed and lose half of his population if not...better not negotiating...
Paulina 16 | 4,192
28 Jul 2010 #79
I just edited...
The net is full of new findings, wiki is a good starting point.

I'm still not surprised that Polish authorities didn't trust Hitler.

I wonder if he didn't thought so of this himself...or is your friend a denier of all the russian
atrocities and massacres?

Well, he's not my "friend". Funny that he called me your friend too :)
As far is denying is concerned - how does this matter in our discussion?

You asked for my opinion even as I told you I'm no Pole...
I think Poland would had fared much better with much less losses of life and complete
destruction if they had allied with one of it's juggernaut neighbours...not aggravating both of them and trusting totally naive far away empty words from London and Paris.

Then the more sane choice, let's say, would be to become an ally of the Soviet Union, and not Third Reich. Why would you write in the first place that Poland should become an ally of Hitler?

As the historic research shows Hitler WANTED to negotiate and was ready to move in turn for Polish agreements.
That means also that Hitler had NOT the complete destruction of Poland on his mind from the beginning! FACT!

The fact that he wanted to negotiate doesn't say anything about what he would do after that. And as he was pretty much insane... :/

Most countries even in Nazi-occupied Europe didn't fare as bad as Poland.

Why? If those countries were also occupied then what you mean by "didn't fare as bad as Poland"?

I wouldn't be...not as a German of the 30s and 40s, most people weren't.

I'm not asking a German of the 30s and 40s :/ I'm asking you...
LAGirl 9 | 496
28 Jul 2010 #80
Hi I went to the Warsaw uprising museum a week ago very touching my God what these people went through some of the stuff was graphic. I bet these people in warsaw where alot kinder and nicer then the ones in warsaw today.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #81
I'm still not surprised that Polish authorities didn't trust Hitler.

It wasn't a matter of "trust" or "friendship" but cold blooded real politik...
The german and russian juggernauts were gearing up for war with Poland direct in the middle.
Don't tell me the polish politicians didn't see that!

As far is denying is concerned - how does this matter in our discussion?

I'm not sure what "your friends" opinion matters in this discussion at all but still you brought him in...

hy would you write in the first place that Poland should become an ally of Hitler?

If you go back in this thread I answered to a posting that Germans "asked" for "it" but Poland not.
I was objecting and said that in a way Poland "asked" for "it" too...all their foreign policy helped to make both Russia and Nazis giving the incentive and motivation to invade and partition Poland between themselves till the real fight started.

In my opinion (as I explained at lengths now) Polands government failed their people BIG TIME!

ANYTHING would had been better, negotiating with Hitler, passive ally, allying with Stalin, neutrality...NOTHING could had been worse than what actually happened to Poland. That is my opinion!

Why? If those countries were also occupied then what you mean by "didn't fare as bad as Poland"?

Well, most of them stayed quite intact, didn't lose millions and even could keep their own governments...
Nothing compared to Poland.

I'm not asking a German of the 30s and 40s :/ I'm asking you...

Are we about to invade again?
Paulina 16 | 4,192
28 Jul 2010 #82
It wasn't a matter of "trust" or "friendship" but cold blooded real politik...

Maybe Poles aren't good at "cold blooded real politik"? ;)
What I meant was: after Austria and Czechoslovakia Hitler seemed to be always "hungry" for land. I really doubt that even if Poland gave Danzig, etc. Hiler wouldn't come for more.

The german and russian juggernauts were gearing up for war with Poland direct in the middle.

Well, I think Poland was making some preparations in case of war with Third Reich but I don't think anybody suspected that the Soviet Union would also invade Poland.

Don't tell me the polish politicians didn't see that!

I don't know! ;)

I'm not sure what "your friends" opinion matters in this discussion at all but still you brought him in...

It was a Russian point of view on what you wrote so it was related.
As far as raping girls and nailing them on barn doors is concerned - he could read about this many times before from Poles, me included ;/

If you go back in this thread I answered to a posting that Germans "asked" for "it" but Poland not.
I was objecting and said that in a way Poland "asked" for "it" too...all their foreign policy helped to make both Russia and Nazis giving the incentive and motivation to invade and partition Poland between themselves till the real fight started.

In my opinion it's just a way of justifying what Hitler and Stalin did. Poland didn't ask for war. Nobody told Hitler to invade Poland and start a war because of one city.

In my opinion (as I explained at lengths now) Polands government failed their people BIG TIME!

I think that many governments failed at that time. Even those who were in a more comfortable situation than Poland. They failed to stop Hitler when it was time. They were too selfish and distrustful of one another.

And nobody could know the future...

Well, most of them stayed quite intact, didn't lose millions

Why? Both Poland and those countries were occupied. So why the difference?

Are we about to invade again?

Is it so difficult to answer my question? ;)
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #83
Maybe Poles aren't good at "cold blooded real politik"? ;)

Yeah...their quite pathetic history seems to hint at that...

What I meant was: after Austria and Czechoslovakia Hitler seemed to be always "hungry" for land. I really doubt that even if Poland gave Danzig, etc. Hiler wouldn't come for more.

How often do I have to repeat that!
Hitler gave a **** about Danzig and the corridor, that was to gain and keep the support of the Germans at home. He wanted Poland to scratch from the enemy-list in the build up to the war with Russia, maybe even as peaceful concentration area for his armies.

Well, I think Poland was making some preparations in case of war with Third Reich but I don't think anybody suspected that the Soviet Union would also invade Poland.

Why not? Because their relationships had been so peacy and friendly before???

I don't know! ;)

Well...that's history research for you...these questions are still hotly discussed...read some books.

In my opinion it's just a way of justifying what Hitler and Stalin did.

Don't mess up "justifying" with stating facts. Because I try to explain the reasoning behind Hitler and Stalin doesn't mean I justify that.

Nobody told Hitler to invade Poland and start a war because of one city.

Well, in short Poland did go to war about one city, a fully german city at that.

I think that many governments failed at that time. Even those who were in a more comfortable situation than Poland.

Agreed. But no other country was in the same situation, in the middle between Stalin and Hitler, the main battle field, so their failings hadn't the same disastreous consequences!

Why? Both Poland and those countries were occupied. So why the difference?

Erm...history is surely not your strong suit.
I'm not your teacher, please read up such stuff before you take part in history discussions!
Seanus 15 | 19,674
28 Jul 2010 #84
Quite pathetic history?? What is that supposed to mean?

What fully German city, Gdańsk? Read the history from 966, BB. We've been through this.
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #85
Quite pathetic history?? What is that supposed to mean?

Partititions anybody???

Read the history from 966, BB.

Nope Seanie...1939 Danzig had been 98 percent Germans! Danzig had a history as Hanseatic League town for centuries...no need to go back 1000 years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Gda%C5%84sk#Famous_people_born_in_the_city

Famous people born in the city

# Johannes Dantiscus, 1485, poet, church canon and bishop
# Bernhard von Reesen, 1490
# Albrecht Giese, 1524
# Johannes Hevelius, 1611, astronomer
# Georg Daniel Schultz, 1615

German even longer than the US is american!

After all Germans had been EVERYWHERE first in what is now Poland if we go back even further so keep that crap!
Seanus 15 | 19,674
28 Jul 2010 #86
Partitions take many forms, BB. Try to understand the underpinning rationale for them.

Time changes things, right? I don't recall Poland declaring war, they didn't initiate it. A simple but salient point!
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #87
Try to understand the underpinning rationale for them.

What? That the polish nobles/politics couldn't keep Poland together? Three times???

A simple but salient point!

Yeah...that surely helped them...
Paulina 16 | 4,192
28 Jul 2010 #88
Yeah...their quite pathetic history seems to hint at that...

:)
I can see that German attitude towards Polish history is very similar to the attitude of Russians.
Probably that's why Poles "like" you both so much...

He wanted Poland to scratch from the enemy-list in the build up to the war with Russia, maybe even as peaceful concentration area for his armies.

There was no war between Third Reich and Poland before 1939. So they weren't really enemies. And no sane government would let Hiler's army into their country willingly without being forced into this, only with no other choice. So why on Earth Poland would do that at that time?

Why not? Because their relationships had been so peacy and friendly before???

Third Reich and Soviet Union were ideological enemies so who would've thought that they would get together?

Well...that's history research for you...these questions are still hotly discussed...read some books.

Did you?

Well, in short Poland did go to war about one city, a fully german city at that.

No, Poland was defending itself. It's not "going to war". There wasn't even a war decleration on the part of Third Reich :/

Agreed. But no other country was in the same situation,

And so it is so easy for you to say what they were supposed to do?

in the middle between Stalin and Hitler, the main battle field, so their failings hadn't the same disastreous consequences!

That's why I don't think there was much what they could do. It would probably end bad anyway. Maybe not as bad as when not allying with any of them, but the difference wouldn't be that big, I think. In the moral sense they did the right thing.

Besides, Polish troops had orders not to fight against the Red Army. There was no declaration of war.

Erm...history is surely not your strong suit.

Indeed :) But maybe I know, and I would just like you to write what you think?

I'm not your teacher, please read up such stuff before you take part in history discussions!

You can learn some from discussions too :)
Bratwurst Boy 11 | 11,747
28 Jul 2010 #89
No, Poland was defending itself. It's not "going to war".

Of course you did!
You didn't really expect a strong Germany to just accept the theft of Danzig, didn't you?
What about the right of self-determination for the Danzigers? They for sure didn't wanted to become Poles.
But that was exactly the choice Poland gave them..become Poles or leave!

The polish government knew that Germany would act, to bad they truly believed that London and Paris would save their balls.

There was no war between Third Reich and Poland before 1939.

Poland didn't even exist till the Treaty of Versailles shuffled borders in 1919 and gave you your country. The third Reich existed from 1933 onwards...not really much time!

So why on Earth Poland would do that at that time?

To save their country and millions of people??? Just a guess...

Did you?

I'm the only one having the patience to answer some of your really inane...erm..uninformed questions.

And so it is so easy for you to say what they were supposed to do?

As I said, EVERYTHING would had been better...doesn't matter what!

Besides, Polish troops had orders not to fight against the Red Army. There was no declaration of war.

Well, there wasn't no declaration from the Germans either...didn't stop the polish army from fighting!

You can learn some from discussions too :)

You are bringing neither new arguments nor facts to the discussion.
Your whole argumentation reminds me about elementary school history...only superficial facts clad in some white washing and done with it.
But serious history is a different beast and rarely only black and white...
Seanus 15 | 19,674
28 Jul 2010 #90
And how were they supposed to keep it together exactly? There are divisions and it's part of life.


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