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Thinking of changing Wikipedia's Holocaust article to include genocide of Poles.


vetala - | 382
11 May 2010 #31
Dear god... don't you dare. Don't you fvcking dare! I don't want the whole world to think that Poles are butthurt, selective, revisionist attention wh*res.

Last time I checked, Poles were included under "other victims" - in their righteous place.
KWnorow - | 22
11 May 2010 #32
I just found out that the whole german army was genocided...attacked across Europe just for being Germans! NOT FAIR!!!

Do I detect an attempt at cheap sympathy here? I understand you are going for a quick joke, however, you know there's a difference between armies fighting and planned extermination.
OP masks98 27 | 289
11 May 2010 #33
MareGaea seems to think the word holocaust was invented specifically to describe the genocide of jews but he's wrong it goes back much further. He proposes "polonicide" for the massacre of poles, but that would be an alternative for "Judeocide" not for "holocaust" which has been used in various contexts.

Although MareGaea tried to be insulting in his post I don't think insulting him back is required, he's just misinformed and if he wants to be more informed than it's up to him to look it all up, no need to hate on him.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
11 May 2010 #34
careful with the personal insults, please.

I hardly insult anybody, yet I get insulted plenty of time, because I don't support a racist view. Don't see warnings like this when they do that to me. But ok, I will not call him an idiot anymore, even though he is.

MareGaea seems to think the word holocaust was invented specifically to describe the genocide of jews but he's wrong it goes back much further. He proposes "polonicide" for the massacre of poles, but that would be an alternative for "Judeocide" not for "holocaust" which has been used in various contexts.

You haven't understood what I said, right?

Although MareGaea tried to be insulting in his post I don't think insulting him back is required, he's just misinformed and if he wants to be more informed than it's up to him to look it all up, no need to hate on him.

Will you get a life, pls?

Oh btw, the Jews do have their own term for the Holocaust, Shoah.

>^..^<

M-G (equal monks, equal caps)
vetala - | 382
11 May 2010 #35
Oh btw, the Jews do have their own term for the Holocaust, Shoah.

Poles also have their own term, "Zagłada Żydów".
Torq
11 May 2010 #36
It was THREE million non-Jewish Poles killed, not 2 million.

WHAT? Are you saying that as many ethnic Poles as Jews were murdered by Germans
in occupied Poland? Maybe you would also like to add that Poles were being murdered
in Auschwitz a year or so before the first Jewish prisoner was interned there?

Maybe, in your insolence, you would also want to mention that Poland was the only
country where helping a Jew was a crime punishable by death. Yet the number
of people, that have been recognized as rescuers by Yad Vashem in Israel is
the highest in the world?

You, sir, are a raging anti-semite!
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
11 May 2010 #37
Poles also have their own term, "Zagłada Żydów".

True. Holocaust is a generic Greek word that has somehow crept into the vocabulary of man. Jews never intended it to be solely for them, but since Zaglada Zydow is kinda hard to pronounce for non-Polish ppl, and Shoah is more exclusively for Hebrew use, the term Holocaust was being used instead to make it immediately clear what was meant - generally the massmurder of a group of ppl, doesn't matter which ppl.

Last time I checked, Poles were included under "other victims" - in their righteous place.

Indeed. All scientific articles start of course with the biggest group, in this case the Jews, and then the rest. This however does not diminish the suffering of those other groups.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
11 May 2010 #38
Shoah

Good, now think of a term for Pogrom.

Last time I checked, Poles were included under "other victims" - in their righteous place.

Funny, that's how I view it too, difference being that I think of Jewish victims as “other Polish victims” less biased that way.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
11 May 2010 #39
I wouldn't be so quick to attack MW, Torq. You might turn out to be right but he likely has a defence. Being an anti-Semite is really deeper than just labelling.

Anyway, this entry should have taken place a long time ago. Also, Jews attacking Poles is just an extension of the plan to introduce guilt amongst European nations. They really need to understand the times before they start their attacks.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
11 May 2010 #40
Also, Jews attacking Poles is just an extension of the plan to introduce guilt amongst European nations.

Can you expand on that, pls?

>^..^<

M-G (I do agree to leave it in the past, but it should never be forgotten and if a reminder is to be considered an attack on PL then I just wonder why that is)
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
11 May 2010 #41
I wouldn't be so quick to attack MW, Torq. You might turn out to be right but he likely has a defence. Being an anti-Semite is really deeper than just labelling.

*that happens when you don't use smileys Torqi*
OP masks98 27 | 289
11 May 2010 #42
I hardly insult anybody, yet I get insulted plenty of time, because I don't support a racist view.

why do you say it's a racist view? what's racist about my view that we should acknowledge all the other people that were killed?

Also, I know that the jewish term for holocaust is Shoah, but you acted as if you had no idea before, thinking that the holocaust should be exclusively used for jews, you were clearly in error. Why else would 'holocaust' was the "correct description" for the mass murder of Jews, but not for Poles or other races?
Torq
11 May 2010 #43
I wouldn't be so quick to attack MW, Torq.

If you read my post again, you will find that the attack was not so vicious.

Being an anti-Semite is really deeper than just labelling.

Yes, and being a philosemite is mostly a domain of crypto anti-semites.
That's why so many people on this board call me an anti-semite for openly
showing my philosemitic inclinations.

*that happens when you don't use smileys Torqi*

Yip...
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
11 May 2010 #44
what's racist about my view that we should acknowledge all the other people that were killed?

Only when you include the Germans!
(You surely don't want us to feel left out, don't you)
vetala - | 382
11 May 2010 #45
Funny, that's how I view it too, difference being that I think of Jewish victims as "other Polish victims" less biased that way.

Funny, I thought the main difference between Jewish and Polish victims was that a Polish person was in mortal danger whenever someone accused them of being Jewish or hiding Jews. I haven't heard of a Jew under Nazis who would be in mortal danger due to being mistaken for a Pole.

As every Pole, I feel bitter that polish victims are often forgotten but let's not pretend that we had it "just as bad" as Jews, it's a lie. A lie.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
11 May 2010 #46
Also, I know that the jewish term for holocaust is Shoah, but you acted as if you had no idea before, thinking that the holocaust should be exclusively used for jews, you were clearly in error. Why else would 'holocaust' was the "correct description" for the mass murder of Jews, but not for Poles or other races?

If you refer to the Holocaust as name for the genocide on Jews, it's indeed a correct term. The Jews were the biggest group to be murdered, naturally they gonna get named first if you talk about Holocaust and all. Nobody ever denied that Poles were being murdered or Gypsies, for that matter. I only named it "Polonocide" within the context if you want to have a seperate term for the murder of Poles. That's why I said you didn't understand what I wrote.

I also said earlier on that Poles and Jews are kinda like the same. They both suffered tremendously and they both cannot stop whinging and whining about it. It's nearly 70 years ago and again, we should heed the words of my Grandmother, a Jewish woman, who saw her own family as well as her in-law family entirely wiped out in the Holocaust: learn from the past, enjoy today and look forward to a happy future, and it's better to never forget and to forgive than to forget and never to forgive. She hardly spoke a word about it. But I've written that so many times, nobody seems to heed this wise advice. This goes for Jews as well as for Poles.

As every Pole, I feel bitter that polish victims are often forgotten but let's not pretend that we had it "just as bad" as Jews, it's a lie. A lie.

It's not completely true that Poles are forgotten. I think the problem was that right after WW2 Poland disappeared behind the Iron Curtain. If this hadn't been the case, the Polish victims would not have gotten "snowed under". Jews on the other hand, were part of the non-Communists world and got exposure in their suffering. But things are getting better for the Poles, with the arrival of more English languaged material.

But you're right, Poles didn't have it as bad as the Jews. Jews were to be wiped out completely from the start - there was no other way out for them, unlike for the Poles who could get away if they simply did not help Jews.

>^..^<

M-G (I am historian, by the way, mask, therefore I do know a bit)
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
11 May 2010 #47
As every Pole, I feel bitter that polish victims are often forgotten but let's not pretend that we had it "just as bad" as Jews, it's a lie. A lie.

We might as well be truthful to ourselves, most Jewish victims were Poles but somehow this fact eludes all, they always describe themselves as Jews forgetting the fact they were Polish citizens, some separate entity to diminish the number of Polish victims. When we speak of victims we should speak of Poles but if you really need to make the distinction then Polish Jews would be appropriate, same for other Jewish victims Hungarian, French etc., everything else is a lie.
Torq
11 May 2010 #48
cannot stop whinging and whining about it

Try losing 35% of population (35 million in 1939 and 23 million in 1945), 76,000 sq. kilometres
of territory (more or less the size of entire Czech Republic) including two out of four most
important cities in the country's history, having your capital razed to the ground, your
industry, infrastructure and national wealth destroyed and getting under Soviet occupation
for 45 years and we'll see if you won't whine about it!

Poles didn't have it as bad as the Jews.

No, we didn't, but we were exterminated as well and it was only a question of time
when Germans had finished with the Jews they would have proceeded with their
plan of exterminating Poles. Ever heard of Generalplan Ost for "slawische Untermenschen"?
By 1952, only 3 - 4.8 out of 35 million Poles were to be left alive as slaves for the German
"heerenvolk".

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalny_Plan_Wschodni

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Generalplan_Ost

We didn't have it as bad as Jews, only because it wasn't our turn yet - we were supposed
to be next, but nonetheless 3 million etnic Poles were murdered by Germans during WW2.
dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
11 May 2010 #49
You can't change the past. Better to suck it up and get over it no?
Torq
11 May 2010 #50
That's exactly what we do... most of the time.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
11 May 2010 #51
Ever heard of Generalplan Ost for "slawische Untermenschen"?

Did you read that?

Questioning the existence

According to critical historians, the Generalplan Ost is just a characteristic example of Soviet historiography. They allege that the plan was mysteriously disappeared, as it was explained by Soviet historians, and there are no written evidence to prove its existence[10].

It's more hearsay and propaganda like soap made from Jews than anything else...
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
11 May 2010 #52
Did you read that?

Honestly BB, as soon as first German soldier set foot on Polish ground the beginning of the plan was implemented, taking of polish children to replenish the Arian stock, the slave labor etc.
Torq
11 May 2010 #53
Did you read that?

I read a book about it by dr Andrzej Szcześniak.

It's more hearsay and propaganda like soap made from Jews than anything else...

I'm not that sure. Oh, well - luckily we never found out what would have beenthe next
nazi step, after exterminating Jews.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
11 May 2010 #54
taking of polish children to replenish the Arian stock, the slave labor etc.

And that's why the whole "they wanted to kill all Slavs as they did with the Jews"-propaganda falls short, very short imho.

Blond slavic babies are still slavic babies. The Nazis threw blond jewish babies into the ovens to not "poison" their blood and didn't took them into their families as they did with polish babies.

I've seen a photo where german soldiers stay beside a grave of polish soldiers with a written: "Here rest brave soldiers" (or something similiar).

Didn't look like as if they hated and despised the slavic untermensch enemy!
And slave labour was for all of the occupied countries since most men were on the front (after the war was lost it was for Germans to go on slave labour for years after the war was over, most notably Russia and France) and so on.
SeanBM 35 | 5,808
11 May 2010 #55
The Holocaust....is the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Holocaust
vetala - | 382
11 May 2010 #56
Here's what Jan Karski was told by the representatives of the Jewish underground, very interesting and true statement:

"You other Poles are fortunate. You are suffering too. Many of you will die, but at least your nation goes on living. After the war Poland will be resurrected. Your cities will be rebuilt and your wounds will slowly heal. From this ocean of tears, pain, rage and humiliation your country will emerge again, but the Polish Jews will no longer exist. We will be dead. Hitler will lose his war against the human, the just, and the good, but he will win his war against the Polish Jews. No -- it will not be a victory; the Jewish people will be murdered...."

As we all know, this is exactly what happened. Not only Polish jewry was annihilated but Jews in many other countries as well. And that's why Holocaust is mainly a specifically Jewish experience.

Blond slavic babies are still slavic babies.

But they were the only Slavic babies allowed to live. Nazis believed that blond hair in Poles was a sign of German blood. Don't try to deny the obvious Anti-Slavic sentiment of the Nazis, there's too much evidence of it.
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
11 May 2010 #57
Slave labour was for all of the occupied countries since most men were on the front (after the war was lost it was for Germans to go on slave labour) and so on.

Somehow I doubt it, political opposition and undesirables perhaps. As for it being nothing but propaganda well that’s your opinion. Even today I see Poles putting canals on Russian and German soldiers graves, displaying humanity is not the same as agenda or policy of a regime in power. I never said all Germans are blood thirsty beasts.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,426
11 May 2010 #58
Nazis believed that blond hair in Poles was a sign of German blood. Don't try to deny the obvious Anti-Slavic sentiment of the Nazis, there's too much evidence of it.

Yeah...as blond haired as Hitler was or Göbbels..
Half of the Germans have not blond hair...they weren't discriminated either...
Don't you see that something doesn't add up here?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
11 May 2010 #59
Try losing 35% of population (35 million in 1939 and 23 million in 1945), 76,000 sq. kilometres of territory (more or less the size of entire Czech Republic) including two out of four most important cities in the country's history, having your capital razed to the ground, your industry, infrastructure and national wealth destroyed and getting under Soviet occupation for 45 years and we'll see if you won't whine about it!

We all know what happened to the Poles. Nobody has denied it so far. Unlike with the Jews, by the way, as there are plenty of sick ghosts that deny that Jews were ever killed. Anyway, Jews lost about 50 per cent of their ppl and unlike the Poles, this was an attempt to wipe out an entire ppl. "Generalplan Ost for the Slavic Subhumans" was projected to leave at least 4.8 Mln ppl alive, albeit as slaves. And besides, it was nowhere clear that these plans would actually be carried out. By 1952 a lot of things could've happened. For the Jews there was no such plan, they simply had to be killed. All of them. No plan to keep part of them as slaves. Simply wipe them off the face of the Earth. So in that respect, yes, Jews had it worse than the Poles as also, like I said before (and vetala said so as well), Poles had a way of preventing being killed and that was not to interfere in any way with the Jews. At least they had an escape route. For Jews there was no such thing.

That's exactly what we do... most of the time.

lol, just check out the many threads on the topic on this forum. Now, I'm not saying that this here is representative for the entire Polish population and I firmly believe that the vast majority of the Poles are good and decent ppl, but if this forum is to be representative, one would fear the worst. But I know this forum consist for a big part of keyboard warriors who wouldn't dare say the things they say here in the outside world.

having your capital razed to the ground

Well, other cities have been bombed too. Rotterdam, for example, you know, in that "anti semitic" and "pro-Nazi" country, NL.

I'm not that sure. Oh, well - luckily we never found out what would have beenthe next
nazi step, after exterminating Jews.

Right, it's pure speculation. While the Jewish extermination was not.

>^..^<

M-G (next time I will spank you, Torq!)
vetala - | 382
11 May 2010 #60
Half of the Germans have not blond hair...they weren't discriminated either...

Because they weren't Slavs.

Nazis believed that Jewish blood was poison, Polish blood was worthless and German blood was like the specialest snowflake. Polish blood was worth something only if it was mixed with German blood. But even one drop of Jewish blood was enough to poison even the superior German blood. Get it? Or should I give you some three hundred quotes?


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