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Thinking of changing Wikipedia's Holocaust article to include genocide of Poles.


masks98 27 | 289
11 May 2010 #1
Ever since my return from Poland It's pissed me off how much the holocaust is equated with the Jews, without even a token mention of Poles, 2 million of whom died at the hands of the Nazis, and whose culture and nationhood was the target for complete annihilation.

So I'm thinking of changing the wikipedia entry for "The Holocaust", which is defined there as

"the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany."

I want to change it to "The Nazi genocide of approximately 5 million Poles, of whom 3.1 million were Polish Jews, and 2 million were ethnic Poles." or something similar.

The Wikipedia article does mention the Nazi attack on Poles and other ethnicities, but nevertheless chooses to define the holocaust exclusively as the genocide of Jews in the first paragraph of the article.

Any caveats? Suggestions?
dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
11 May 2010 #2
This sounds like yet another case of "look how hard done by were the Polish".
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,375
11 May 2010 #3
Prepare for some serious discussion, it's not as if your changes will be quietly accepted.
Rogalski 5 | 94
11 May 2010 #4
But if you do that, why stop at Poles? Why not mention all the groups that were targeted?
OP masks98 27 | 289
11 May 2010 #5
Because the Nazis aimed at the complete destruction of Poland and the eventual dissapearance of the Poles over a period of 25-50 years. It was a policy that only ended when the Nazis started losing.
Wroclaw 44 | 5,387
11 May 2010 #6
Any caveats? Suggestions?

your title doesn't take into account other european jews.

"the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews (predominantly Polish) during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany.

include the bold text and you might have a slim chance
KWnorow - | 22
11 May 2010 #7
I think the jews have claimed the exclusive publishing and movie rights to the Holocaust by now. That said, I agree with you that history should definitely be more accurate. The problem is that they are creating a political vacuum when they mislead your perception. Control by propaganda I always say.........
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,375
11 May 2010 #8
The Nazis surely were busy...everybody and their grandmom now claims to be genocided by them!

Can Germans claim some Genocide for us too? I mean the air raids in Hamburg or Dresden for example were aimed solely at Germans...for being Germans...that was mass killing because of ethnical reasons, wasn't it?

Or the rape orgies of the red army...they favoured ethnical german girls...what about that?

I'm all for equal distribution of Genocide...why fighting about it, there is enough for everybody!
decor_ating - | 10
11 May 2010 #9
It wasn't very effective was it?

There are still millions of poles left over running around Europe taking jobs from decent hard working folks.

I also hear you sub standard Europeans are very racist towards non-white people in your country anyway so you must not have learnt anything from your Nazi past.
irishlodz 1 | 135
11 May 2010 #10
I thought about doing the same. From what I have read approx. 5-6 million Jews and 6-8 Million non Jews were killed. The pre-war east was so poor it is impossible to know exactly as there was never a proper census done. I've read on a few holocaust (mainly US based) websites that the holocaust is specifically the term used for the eradication of Jews. This seems to be a political attitude and I don't agree. These people starved and were murdered side by side. You cannot distinguish them by religion. Once they were singled out for their fate they all suffered identically. People of many religions died and dozens of nationalities. Its is not just in Poland that these things happened so you cannot just refer to Polish victims along with Jews. Anyone deemed an enemy of the Nazi's was processed to their death.There were camps in several countries.

On the wiki page it does mention that there is a difference of opinion on a definition. I suspect that's as good as you will get as it is such a tender subject, and even states the fact the word was used pre-war to describe other genocides. Basically the word has been hijacked.

For hundreds of years, the word holocaust was used in English to denote massive sacrifices and great slaughters or massacres. During World War II, the word was used to describe Nazi atrocities regardless of whether the victims were Jews or non-Jews. Since the 1960s, the term has come to be used by scholars and popular writers to refer exclusively to the genocide of Jews.

Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,375
11 May 2010 #11
I also hear you sub standard Europeans are very racist towards non-white people in your country anyway so you must not have learnt anything from your Nazi past.

The error or the Nazis wasn't the killing per se but the despising and killing of other white Europeans...that was very wrong and unforgivable!
Miguel Colombia - | 351
11 May 2010 #12
The term "holocaust" should be used to denominate the murder of Poles, Jews, sinti and roma and other EUropeans.

Does anyone have a number of casualties?
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
11 May 2010 #13
...And again a thread about "ahwww look at us, poor Poles, we have been so mistreated in the past, it nearly makes me cry".

Make a freaking new Wiki for "The Polish Holocaust", but there are already many pages about that, so it probably will be marked for deletion soon.

I think the jews have claimed the exclusive publishing and movie rights to the Holocaust by now. That said, I agree with you that history should definitely be more accurate. The problem is that they are creating a political vacuum when they mislead your perception.

Here we go again...Will you please drown yourself in the toilet pot? Thanks.

Control by propaganda I always say.........

...And I always say: oh look, there is another moron who is paranoid enough to think that it's an evil scheme set up by Jews in order to destroy the Poles. Thank God most ppl don't take that drivel not serious anymore.

"the term generally used to describe the genocide of approximately six million European Jews during World War II, a programme of systematic state-sponsored extermination by Nazi Germany."

Which is the correct description. If you try to change it, you are dishonest towards history.

I want to change it to "The Nazi genocide of approximately 5 million Poles, of whom 3.1 million were Polish Jews, and 2 million were ethnic Poles." or something similar.

You should really stop drugs, you know.

The Wikipedia article does mention the Nazi attack on Poles and other ethnicities, but nevertheless chooses to define the holocaust exclusively as the genocide of Jews in the first paragraph of the article.

Because the Holocaust is generally accepted as the Jewish genocide. Just like the term Porajmos stands for the Gypsie genocide. If you think it's necessary to keep nagging about it, invent your own term. Maybe Polonicide would be sth?

Ever since my return from Poland It's pissed me off how much the holocaust is equated with the Jews, without even a token mention of Poles, 2 million of whom died at the hands of the Nazis, and whose culture and nationhood was the target for complete annihilation.

Actually, that is not correct. Holocaust = Jewish, Porajmos = Gypsies. Now find your own term. And another mistake you make here: unlike the Jews, the Nazis did not aim at the complete anihilation of the Poles. They were to become slaves. The Jews were from the start until the end destined to be slaughtered, there was no role for them whatsoever, for the Poles there was, humble as it may be, but at least they had a slim chance.

Yet another American kiddo (of Polish descent?) that doesn't know what's going on but gets "Pissed off" by the fact that the Holocaust is Jewish, always was Jewish and always will be Jewish. What the fcuk is wrong with you?

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
KWnorow - | 22
11 May 2010 #14
Can Germans claim some Genocide for us too? I mean the air raids in Hamburg or Dresden for example were aimed solely at Germans...for being Germans...that was mass killing because of ethnical reasons, wasn't it?

No. One is genocide and the other a result of war. Besides, you don't victimize people and then turn the tables saying you are the victim when they respond.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,375
11 May 2010 #15
. One is genocide and the other a result of war.

Well...the mass killing of Poles only started as the war started with the invasion..
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
11 May 2010 #16
I'm against entering a frachnising business of Holocaust, Jews do it and its disgusting we definitely should not enter the rat race with those fockers.

After studying poles in this country and abroad I cannot see how they can be classified as white Europeans to be honest, a bunch of parasites more like...low lives. comparable to Gypsies, migrating like locusts consuming everything in their wake! Free-loading parasites!

Love you too! :)
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,375
11 May 2010 #17
Besides, you don't victimize people and then turn the tables saying you are the victim when they respond.

Sure...WWII started with the end of WWI and there Germany was brutalized and victimized.
You've got it coming!

The moment people are attacked and killed because of their ethnie it's genocide, right?
KWnorow - | 22
11 May 2010 #18
...And I always say: oh look, there is another moron who is paranoid enough to think that it's an evil scheme set up by Jews in order to destroy the Poles. Thank God most ppl don't take that drivel not serious anymore.

I never said it was an "evil scheme" nor implied it. Instead of trying to put motives behind my thoughts, try thinking instead.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 10,375
11 May 2010 #19
I just found out that the whole german army was genocided...attacked across Europe just for being Germans! NOT FAIR!!!
irishlodz 1 | 135
11 May 2010 #20
Because the Holocaust is generally accepted as the Jewish genocide.

Which is the correct description. If you try to change it, you are dishonest towards history.

I don't accept it and nor has anyone I've spoken to. I lived in the US for a while and know the fear people live in of insulting Jewish sensitivities on the matter.

The dishonesty toward history is that the word has been hijacked. It has been in use since long before WW2.

Someone had a different opinion to you and you suggest they drown themselves in a toilet! Why do you bother coming on a forum?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
11 May 2010 #21
No no no, we don't want the Polish equivalent of the IDF here ;) ;)

What bored and opportunistic morons live in the world today. Start doing sth constructive, rather than amending sth around 70 years old. Go and tackle poverty, give to charity, whatever, just stop bringing up old wounds.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
11 May 2010 #22
I never said it was an "evil scheme" nor implied it. Instead of trying to put motives behind my thoughts, try thinking instead.

I wished you would think as much as I do. But anyway, let's examine closely what you said:

I think the jews have claimed the exclusive publishing and movie rights to the Holocaust by now. That said, I agree with you that history should definitely be more accurate. The problem is that they are creating a political vacuum when they mislead your perception. Control by propaganda I always say.........

Mind the bold sentences. Read them aloud and let them savour a bit. What'd you think? You didn't imply that there was some sort of scheme behind it by Jews? Maybe you didn't meant it like that, but if I were you, I would dearly pay attention to what I was writing.

I'm against entering a frachnising business of Holocaust, Jews do it and its disgusting we definitely should not enter the rat race with those fockers

You're such a freaking moron. You complain all the time how bad Poles have been treated, yet you despise the Jews, because you presume that they do the same as you. So basically you must be disgusted by yourself. Well, I don't blame you for that. It must be very tough to see that a ppl who was nearly wiped of the face of the Earth, tries to remember what happened. Poles do it all the time, but OF COURSE that is acceptible, if the Jews do this, it's not. Take some more medication, you definitively need it.

Someone had a different opinion to you and you suggest they drown themselves in a toilet!

A different opinion? This constantly whinging and whining about how bad the Poles had it? I think it's time for the Poles to move on. Nothing more, nothing less. Jews should do that too, but I just got tired about the 1200000000th thread concerning Poland, the Jews and the Holocaust. And he should indeed drown himself in his own ****. I can say that, because that's what I do. If you don't like it, get over it.

>^..^<

M-G (tiens)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
11 May 2010 #23
It's all a bit late for changes, isn't it? Better late than never almost always applies but I'd be prepared to make an exception in this case. We all (should) regret the genocide, any genocide, but humanity's selfishness rules the day. While they are at it, how about compensation for the families that were killed in KatyƄ? ;0 ;)

please, don't take this off topic
KWnorow - | 22
11 May 2010 #24
Mind the bold sentences. Read them aloud and let them savour a bit. What'd you think? You didn't imply that there was some sort of scheme behind it by Jews? Maybe you didn't meant it like that, but if I were you, I would dearly pay attention to what I was writing.

"They" refers to the powers that be, those who write history instead of jews, as you erroneously assumed. Every media has it's share of propaganda - newspapers, t.v., internet. I pay attention to what I write. It's the people that misinterpret it that I worry about.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
11 May 2010 #25
They" refers to the powers that be

Ok, I let you off the hook this time, but you do realise that "they" in the way you wrote it, refers directly back to "Jews" you mentioned earlier on? Next time, if you mean a different group, explicitely state that other group as this can come across as confusing.

please, don't take this off topic

Yes Seanus, try to stay on topic this time.

:))

>^..^<

M-G (grin)
OP masks98 27 | 289
11 May 2010 #26
your title doesn't take into account other european jews.

True!

Which is the correct description. If you try to change it, you are dishonest towards history.

Why is it the correct description? The Nazis aimed to destroy poland and all ethnic poles, and killed 2million ethnic poles in the process while clearing almost 2 million Poles from annexed territories, that's genocide and ethnic cleansing, a holocaust.

Because the Holocaust is generally accepted as the Jewish genocide. Just like the term Porajmos stands for the Gypsie genocide. If you think it's necessary to keep nagging about it, invent your own term. Maybe Polonicide would be sth?

You're wrong, a holocaust is a word that has been used historically to describe various massacres, not just that of jews. There is talk of a holocaust in China for example during the Japanese occupation which resulted in the deaths of 20 million Chinese. An episode in history that is sadly ignored over here. There is also talk of holocaust for the fate of American indians, and africans during the slave trade. In the West, we tend to use it for the Nazi genocides during WWII and I think its should include the genocide of Poles and other groups as part of the official definition, not just a footnote. How is that historically dishonest since I'mm offering a more thorough definition as opposed to an exclusionary one?
ShortHairThug - | 1,103
11 May 2010 #27
...And again a thread about "ahwww look at us, poor Poles, we have been so mistreated in the past, it nearly makes me cry".

I only Jews have the right to bi*** how they have been mistreated, imagine that someone else dare to speak up.

oh look, there is another moron who is paranoid enough to think that it's an evil scheme set up by Jews in order to destroy the Poles. Thank God most ppl don't take that drivel not serious anymore.

I think your scheming back fired on you, but that’s just my opinion. Looky here, masks98 is not Polish, there goes your theory. I would argue that the ability to freely travel educates people and they are just waking up to the reality and the true history.

If you try to change it, you are dishonest towards history.

Perhaps the term unbiased would be more appropriate in this context.

If you think it's necessary to keep nagging about it, invent your own term.

That’s just it, irishlodz is right you seem to hijack the term same as in case of ‘pogrom’ , can’t even come up with something original that would reflect as something truly Jewish.

Actually, that is not correct. Holocaust = Jewish, Porajmos = Gypsies. Now find your own term.

Actually, that is not correct, neither Holocaust nor Pogrom is your term, now find something more original instead of changing the definition of existing words.

doesn't know what's going on but gets "Pissed off"

Reading your response I have to say it describes you to a tee, now to paraphrase you. What the fcuk is wrong with you?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
11 May 2010 #28
yet you despise the Jews,

No i despise the way Jews franchised Holocaust like a fast food chain and use it to guilt trip and blackmail anyone who has a different political or social outlook on life then what amount to their religious nazi philosophy :)))
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
11 May 2010 #29
ShortHairThug

Thankfully I do not take you seriously.

>^..^<

M-G (weren't you the idiot that said that truth hurts when it came to intolerant NL? That disqualified you)

careful with the personal insults, please.
MediaWatch 10 | 945
11 May 2010 #30
Ever since my return from Poland It's pissed me off how much the holocaust is equated with the Jews, without even a token mention of Poles, 2 million of whom died at the hands of the Nazis, and whose culture and nationhood was the target for complete annihilation.

It was THREE million non-Jewish Poles killed, not 2 million.


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