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Are Polish territories natively German?


Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
12 May 2011 #31
Cro Magnons are not here with us to discuss...so.....

So shut up, this "I was here first" argument is stupid. All humans, including Cro Magnons, originated in Africa anyhow.
OP Koala 1 | 332
12 May 2011 #32
So some germanic tribes are the ancestors of the Germans??? REALLY! I would never had thought....

The big differnce is that you make all ancient Germanic tribes ancestors of modern Germans, which is simply not true. You should know better than me which tribes actually were the ancestors as I expect German education system to teach as much...

I could list you the ancestors of modern Poles (Polanie, Wiślanie, Mazowszanie and Ślężanie) and then list of dozens of ancient Slavic tribes that weren't our ancestors.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
12 May 2011 #33
So shut up, this "I was here first" argument is stupid. All humans, including Cro Magnons, originated in Africa anyhow.

Man...you plan to destroy a good, useless discussion or what!

*I should have left for awhile already*

The big differnce is that you make all ancient Germanic tribes ancestors of modern Germans, which is simply not true. You should know better than me which tribes actually were the ancestors as I expect German education system to teach as much...

Matter is geography...where the tribes settled the modern Germans developed. So eastern Germans have other tribes ancestors than western Germans, southern Germans or northern Germans (broadly spoken and minus all the population movements during 2000 years).

But it had been all germanic tribes...

Even the French are half Germans (Franks)...so are northern Italians (Lombards), some Brits (Angles, Saxons, Jutes) and alot of other mishpokes. Not to mention those who stayed home, in Scandinavia.

And yes, I think I know more about my ancestors than you ;)
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
12 May 2011 #34
But...panicked locals??? ;)

Teutonic Knights are perceived as The Evil Incarnated in Poland. Fancy that: You are a peaceful tourist collecting some blueberry there in the mountains and you see a gang of impressive knights with those large black crosses, armoured, swords etc. Your first thought is whether you are sane yourself, then get panicked ;-)

OTOH, when the Knights arrived at the gate of the Marienburg Castle, they asked for the admission tickets, getting this answer:
-- The hosts do not need to pay! ;-)

Finally, a guy from Silesia was showing the castle to his GF at that time and telling her stories on his friends playing Teutonic Knights. Suddenly... the group suddenly appears in the corridor... The guy mumbles: "THEM?!"
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
12 May 2011 #35
camera moment!!! :)

The guy mumbles: "THEM?!"

:)
Piast Poland 3 | 182
12 May 2011 #36
Most of ancient Slavic tribes are not ancestors of Poles

some obviously have to be
OP Koala 1 | 332
12 May 2011 #37
Even the French are half Germans (Franks)...so are northern Italians (Lombards), some Brits (Angles, Saxons, Jutes) and alot of other mishpokes.

By that logic Czechs, Russians, Serbs etc. are half Poles!
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
12 May 2011 #38
You know...we here in the borderland between Poles, Germans and Czechs are the biggest mishpoke of all!

But somehow our people are not ready to accept that yet....
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
12 May 2011 #39
-- So, how many Teutonic Knights were there in the battle of Tannenbaum/Grunwald, exactly?

500
OP Koala 1 | 332
12 May 2011 #40
Matter is geography..

I actually thought about it some more. There were some Germanic tribes in today's Poland. Most of them went away to settle in the Roman empire, though some of them stayed and were quickly overwhelmed by Slavs and assimilated into Slavic tribes, since there were no more Germanic tribes in Xth century on our territories. Which means, that those Germanics that decided to stay were ancestors of Poles, so no matter what way you look at it, these territories are natively Polish.
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
12 May 2011 #41
Which means, that those Germanics that decided to stay were ancestors of Poles

:)

these territories are natively Polish.

...I don't think I can follow that logic !

Can we agree on Germolish? ;)
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
12 May 2011 #42
Polish, German and Czech are all indeed UPPER SILESIAN!

HAILE SILESIA! ;-)))
Bratwurst Boy 9 | 10,432
12 May 2011 #43
Polish, German and Czech are all indeed UPPER SILESIAN!

PoGeCh ?

:)
Ironside 50 | 10,910
12 May 2011 #44
Bratwurst Boy in a thread about Polish minorities in Germany stubbornly claims that Poland is in fact natively German. Since other people are sick of this discussion in that thread, I suggest we move it here. :)

He claimed that Germans were there first and then along comes Poles met by the local native people.
Let assume for the moment that what he claim is true:
These late comers, not necessarily Poles yet, but say almost-Poles, probably mixed with local Germans or better still with almost-Germans and together had grown into what is know now as Poles.

Those almost-Germans which left were only distant relations.
Meaning Poles are natives of said territories.
It is interesting concept, Germanic tribes plus Romans = French, Germanic tribes plus Celt's = Germans and so on :)
OP Koala 1 | 332
12 May 2011 #45
...I don't think I can follow that logic !

Quickly - ancestors of Poles lived here in a 1000 years ago, 2000 years ago, 3000 years ago, since despite the migrations, some of the natives decided to stay and live together with newcomers. :) OTOH those who left met different fates and wound up in different territories (like Goths in Spain).

UPPER SILESIAN

A dying breed :)
Ironside 50 | 10,910
12 May 2011 #46
According to the books BB reads Mazowsze was settled by Goths, the same goes for western Ukraine, Slaves supposed to emerge from Polesie.
In fact, nobody can say for sure it is only guessing !
Nathan 18 | 1,363
12 May 2011 #47
Where had been all the slavic towns and villages at 200 A.D ???? I can't see any....only germanic ones!

The Poles were being given birth in Ukraine at that time; then sprung up and moved to the west to push Germans as everyone had enough of them here:)

The Cucuteni-Trypillian culture, also known as Cucuteni culture (from Romanian), Trypillian culture (from Ukrainian) is a late Neolithic archaeological culture which flourished between ca. 5500 BC and 2750 BC, from the Carpathian Mountains to the Dniester and Dnieper regions in modern-day Romania, Moldova, and Ukraine.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni-Trypillian_culture

Danzig was built by Poles

;) Danzig was built by the Germanic tribes. If it was built by the Poles, they would have managed to create a decent fleet able to defend it. As of 16th century you still swam on rafts.
legend 3 | 664
12 May 2011 #48
Im going to have to agree with Des Essientes on this.

Although just to keep the discussion going...

Many different 'races' have walked in Europe. The majority of us are Proto Indo-European anyway which is why I dont like this argument.

Example 1:

euratlas.net/history/europe/1/index.html

You have the Vandali in that 'argument' area of land.
Some Vandali tribes were Germanic and some were also Slavic.
In this time period most of the land around there was simply called Germania but like I said both Germanic and Slavic people were in the area. Slightly east you had the Sarmatians.

The same is true for the Veneti tribes (also just east of the location).

Example 2:

euratlas.net/history/europe/900/index.html

A good portion of Germanic land was Slavic (including the Sorbs).
If you want to play the Germanic=German game, then Western Slavic=Polish.

Example 3:

euratlas.net/history/europe/1000/index.html

By this time Poland is a "country". Nearby you have the HRE (which I personally would not call a country). Here in some of the disputed land you have the Obotrites, Veleti, etc which were mostly slavic.

Then you have Pomerania (one major city Szczecin/Stettin). Ah yes the place that Germans and Poles love to argue about. Well infact Pomerania held Germanic people, and slavic people (the Kushubian), and others. The fact is neither country had claim to this land (Germany who didnt actually exist and Poland who did not have full influence of the area). Afaik the cities origin is ~700/800AD.

Sorry to spoil everyones argument but I believe the country which first held Szczecin for a significant time was Denmark. See map of Europe in 1100 and 1200 for changes. And of course Poland and the states of the HRE (not Germany) fought for it many times.

;) Danzig was built by the Germanic tribes. If it was built by the Poles, they would have managed to create a decent fleet able to defend it. As of 16th century you still swam on rafts.

Please read my above post. Gdansk/Danzig area was inhabited by many peoples. We can go back thousands of years and its pointless. Poland actually made Gdansk into a real city before the Germans did.

In 980, Duke Mieszko I of Poland dedicated a fortress built in the region. The official year of foundation of Gdańsk (Gyddanyzc) was 997

\/wiki/History_of_Gdańsk
gumishu 11 | 5,632
12 May 2011 #49
some part of the present day Germany used to part of the Polish Kingdom - and?

Most of them went away to settle in the Roman empire, though some of them stayed and were quickly overwhelmed by Slavs and assimilated into Slavic tribes, since there were no more Germanic tribes in Xth century on our territories.

there were no Germanic tribes in Poland even in the 7th century AD after 600 AD - previous Germanic populations - if there remained any - were either wiped out or assimilated - there is some prove that some Germanic populations remained (but considerably reduced during the Migration Period when large groups of Germanic people wandered away) until Slavic settlers arrived and then most probably were assimilated pretty soon - the prove lies in the names of the rivers in Poland which are mostly inherited from the Germanic era (the river names in Poland mostly don't have a Slavic etymology) - still it is very possible that many of the river names were inherited by the Germanic settlers from the previous inhabitants (who cannot be identified mostly in terms of a language group)

If it was built by the Poles, they would have managed to create a decent fleet able to defend it. As of 16th century you still swam on rafts.

your knowledge of history is pretty limited - I do accept it as such - time you do too - or just simply educate yourself about this and that (like Slavic fleets in the various times of the Middle Ages) - there are even places in Danmark (Falster) which have Slavic names - interesting huh
Palivec - | 380
12 May 2011 #50
some part of the present day Germany used to part of the Polish Kingdom - and?

Some nationalists and governments justified modern borders with the presence of their people 1000 years ago... that's why the topic is poisened.
gumishu 11 | 5,632
12 May 2011 #51
Some nationalists and governments justified modern borders with the presence of their people 1000 years ago... that's why the topic is poisened.

The topic is poisoned only if you live in the past (i.e. you have some poisoned emotions about it) - just live in the present accept the past and it suddenly is much brighter

Some nationalists and governments justified modern borders with the presence of their people 1000 years ago... that's why the topic is poisened.

The topic is poisoned only if you live in the past (i.e. you have some poisoned emotions about it) - just live in the present accept the past and it suddenly is much brightertake a glance at this situation for example - Poland suffered badly during the war (in plenty of aspects - mostly at the hands of Germans) - then it haven't received any financial compensation for it - but do you hear Polish politicians demanding compensations from Germany (I mean serious electable politicians - you may take Jarosław Kaczyński for some half-nazi nationalist but it is just your perception and Kaczyński haven't pursued any similar policies) - you can of course say that the territory Germany seceded to Poland was a compensation - and I say - yes - we can count it as such - so let's consider the matter settled and leave it behind (and stop any demands for compensations on the side of the German expelees)

there are even places in Danmark (Falster) which have Slavic names

well, it is Moen (Mon) rather than falster, excuse me

well, it is Moen (Mon) rather than falster, excuse me

oh well, it was both Falster, Moen and even Lolland - I can provide some links if anyone's interested
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
12 May 2011 #52
Danzig was built by the Germanic tribes. If it was built by the Poles, they would have managed to create a decent fleet able to defend it. As of 16th century you still swam on rafts.

I do not know what canoes were used by the German in 16th century but if we move to 17th century, the Polish Navy gave a nice thrashing to the Swedish fleet on 28 November 1627 at the roadstead of Gdańsk (the Oliwa Battle). The Polish Navy commander was Admiral Arend Dickmann, a Dutch.

Germans claiming their sole right to Gdańsk forget there were more nations to form Danzig population than German and Polish.
Palivec - | 380
12 May 2011 #53
The same can be said about almost every bigger city, especially Hansa cities. By this standards Poles shouldn't demand Krakow either, lol.
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
12 May 2011 #54
Well Palivec, saying Danzig was a Hanseatic city would be OK and fair.

Regarding Kraków, am I wrong to think it used to be the royal capital city of Poland? There was time in Kraków... sorry, I have no time to go through history books... some 14th century maybe when German citizens of Kraków tried to make a small rebellion there. The Duke's soldiers went to the streets, and any person met was asked to repeat a Polish phrase (hard to pronounce for a German). Since that time, nobody had any doubts who was the ruler there :-)

P.S. I've found it: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rebellion_of_mayor_Albert
'Soczewica, koło, miele, młyn".

I could also refer to the Polish royal city of Lwow. Lwow used to be a totally Polish city. It is not anymore. I hear nobody in Poland denying that.
Palivec - | 380
12 May 2011 #55
Regarding Kraków, am I wrong to think it used to be the royal capital city of Poland?

Wait a second, your argument was that the presence of a multitude of nationalities means that every nationality can claim a city. You switch your argument.

But anyway. Danzig was a "Free and Hanseatic City", where burghers freely decided about the fate of their home. At one time they wanted to be part of Poland since the Polish crown ceded them more priviliges, and later they wanted to be part of Germany, after the rise of nationalism in the 19th century.
gumishu 11 | 5,632
12 May 2011 #56
Danzig was a "Free and Hanseatic City", where burghers freely decided about the fate of their home

when - in the times ot the Teutonic Order??

Wait a second, your argument was that the presence of a multitude of nationalities means that every nationality can claim a city.

the thing is the surroundings of the city also matter - and the surroundings of Danzig/Gdańsk whatever you prefer were long dominantly Slavic
Antek_Stalich 5 | 997
12 May 2011 #57
Palivec, if you read the wiki on the rebellion of vogt Albert, you certainly noticed the German burghers started polonizing after the collapse of the mutiny. In many cities of the world immigrants contributed to the development and prosperity of given city. Even in Warsaw, the quarter of Saska Kępa (Saxon Hurst) was built by the Dutch, Flemish and Frisians, and then it was owned by the German Saxons for a while.

Gdańsk fortune was simply built on the Polish grain exported via Vistula river. This simply gave the city the strength and autonomy. I'd say Gdańsk/Danzig was always multinational; check the roles of the Polish and German in the Freistadt before the WWII.
Harry
12 May 2011 #58
then it haven't received any financial compensation for it

At least for that Poland can't blame Germany: compensation was paid for Poland and paid in the way that the Polish government wanted it to be paid.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
12 May 2011 #59
'Soczewica, koło, miele, młyn".

I wonder how many mistakes were made were made. If somebody was nervous or had slurred speech :)
OP Koala 1 | 332
12 May 2011 #60
At least for that Poland can't blame Germany: compensation was paid for Poland and paid in the way that the Polish government wanted it to be paid.

Compensation was in 1990s paid to compulsory Polish workers who were abducted and forced to work in Germany. That money was pitiful though and nowhere near compensated the traumatic experiences of those people.

Other than that there was no compensation to speak of.


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