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The story about German- Polish reconciliation


monia 3 | 212
3 Apr 2012 #31
Germanizing about 50 Slavic tribes and millions of ethnic Poles and Czechs over the centuries.

Where did you come up with these revelations from ? It was failed process so you could name it attempting only in certain period of time . Germans tried to counquer our land and deprived us of our language in Prussian annexation . But Germans have never germanized millions of Poles , thats a lie .

The germanization involved only kidnapped Polish children .

Kidnapping of Eastern European children by Nazi Germany (Polish: Rabunek dzieci), part of the Generalplan Ost (GPO), involved taking children from Eastern Europe and moving them to Nazi Germany for the purpose of Germanization, or conversion into Germans.

Occupied Poland had the largest proportion of children taken, but children were abducted throughout Eastern Europe, several hundreds of thousands in tota

The aim of the project was to acquire and "Germanize" children with purportedly Aryan traits who were considered by Nazi officials to be descendants of German settlers who had emigrated to Poland.

/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Eastern_European_children_by_Nazi_Germany
rybnik 18 | 1,462
3 Apr 2012 #32
Hmm, thank you guys, but I have never been showered with so many compliments before. I am a bit suspicious - I smell a hamster. Why are you praising me? Do you want to borrow money? Go to bed with me? Or else?

Now that you mention it.................;)
Funky Samoan 2 | 181
3 Apr 2012 #33
Where did you come up with these revelations from ? It was failed process so you could name it attempting only in certain period of time . Germans tried to counquer our land and deprived us of our language in Prussian annexation . But Germans have never germanized millions of Poles , thats a lie .

Please check out this: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruhrpolen

/the-riddle-of-polish-speaking-germans-a-short-history-of-the-mazurians/

Not to forget the hundred thousands of Poles that moved to Berlin. Take a telephone book of Berlin and check the surnames.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kidnapping_of_Eastern_European_children_by_Nazi_Germany

I know very well what atrocities were committed by Nazi Germany, but thanks for reminding me again. ;-)
monia 3 | 212
3 Apr 2012 #34
germans-a-short-history-of-the-mazurians/

szczecinian.eu/index.php/about-us/

Do you think that such scribbles can give you any informative knowledge ? I guess not .

Warmian and Mazurian regions were theritories where heavy German settlements took place , so over the years there were more German than Polish inhabitants in that regions . Mazurians are not Polish germanized but they are a bit of Piatek and a bit of Freitag :) I would say .
OP pawian 168 | 11,158
3 Apr 2012 #35
Your problem if you cannot cope with the truth.

The only thing I cannot cope with is the fact that a troll is shytting in my thread. :):):):):)

That is outrageous.

But I won't hold back the negative examples like: Odilo Globocnik, Otto Skorzeny

Skorzenny is a bad example. His family roots could be Polish but there is no direct proof for that.

Otto Skorzeny was born in Vienna into a middle-class Austrian family which had a long history of military service. In addition to his native German, he spoke excellent French.

You should mention Bach Zelewski instead: his family was truly Polish: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Erich_von_dem_Bach-Zelewski
TheOther 6 | 3,821
3 Apr 2012 #36
That is outreagous

The only thing outrageous is your commie speak, but since you grew up in that system, you're excused... :)

/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing

Quote:
An earlier draft by the Commission of Experts described ethnic cleansing as "the planned deliberate removal from a specific territory, persons of a particular ethnic group, by force or intimidation, in order to render that area ethnically homogenous."

Sounds familiar, eh?
OP pawian 168 | 11,158
3 Apr 2012 #37
Don`t try to shift the responsibility. German crimes during WW2 compared to Polish retribution afterwards are a like an Elefant to a Mause. :):):):)

In your next post, will you try to accuse Poles of starting the war? :):):):)

Millions of murdered Poles compared to a few million resettled Germans - I hope you understand this difference.

If not, you are a troll. :):):):)

The reconciliation process will go on, despite your dirty job here! :):):):):
monia 3 | 212
3 Apr 2012 #38
Sounds familiar, eh?

In that wiki source you quoted tell me where it says anything about ethnic cleansing over Germans done by Poles .

Moreover your cource says something different than you are trying to persuade - " When enforced as part of a political settlement, as happened with the forced resettlement of ethnic Germans to the new Germany after 1945, it can contribute to long-term stability " . As you can see this action was viewed positively.

Quite contrary to what you claim , the authors of that wiki source as an example of ethnic cleansing gave a mass expulsion of Poles in 1939 as part of the German ethnic cleansing of western Poland annexed to the Reich.
TheOther 6 | 3,821
3 Apr 2012 #39
@pawian

The title of this thread is "The story about German- Polish reconciliation". How can you talk about reconciliation while at the same time calling the ethnic cleansing that happened after WW2 "resettlement"? I assume that you also call the lands that Stalin gave to Poland the "recovered territories", right? Seriously, pawian, everybody knows that a lot of sick sh*t happened during and immediately after WW2. Ignoring it, belittling it, or pretrending that it didn't happen helps no one. Poland has to take the same responsibility for her history as the Germans did for theirs. Anything else doesn't make sense.

Millions of murdered Poles compared to a few million resettled Germans - I hope you understand this difference.

Just remind me how many Germans were killed while being "resettled". I hope you understand the difference.

German crimes during WW2 compared to Polish retribution afterwards are a like an Elefant to a Mause

So it's okay to use the horrible crimes that the Germans committed as an excuse for your own crimes? You catholics are such hypocrites... :) :)
monia 3 | 212
3 Apr 2012 #40
Anything else doesn't make sense.

There will never be any reconciliation if people like you still exist spreading such distorted views about simple facts.

There are some circles in Germany trying to feed poorer social classes of Germans with false ideology of Pollish atrocities against Germans allegedly commited during resettlements as a plan to eradicate German guilt for war crimes among Germans. You seem to become such a victim .
TheOther 6 | 3,821
3 Apr 2012 #41
false ideology of Pollish atrocities against Germans allegedly commited during resettlements

The only correct version of history is the Polish one. Geez, where have I read that one before? :)
monia 3 | 212
4 Apr 2012 #42
Who committed ethnic cleansing on Polish soil during or after the war ?

Here is a little example of German genocide committed on Polish children of Zamosc region . There were 150 000 of Polish chidren kidnapped during the war , some 30 000 of them from Zamość region . Many of them later were murdered in death camps.

Displaced by expulsions from the Zamosc region were sent to concentration camps under the Central Emigration Office in Lodz, located in Zamosc, ul. S. Okrzei - resettlement camp in Zamosc, Zwierzyniec, Budzyn, Frampol, Lublin, Tarnogrod, Bilgoraj and Solska. There the selection of racial deportees was done , were people were divided into groups and separated parents from children.

A group of orphaned children resulted by such actions is known today as the Children of Zamosc.

"At that time I've seen visually, as Germans disconnect children from their mothers. This separation of mothers from their children most shocked me. Worst torture , were nothing compared with this view. Germans took children, if any resistance occurred , even a very faint , they beat them with sticks to the blood - mothers and children. Then in the camp I heard the screech and cry . Sometimes the mother asked the Germans for food for the hungry and shivering children. All she could get, was the blow of a rod or a whip. I saw the Germans who were killing small children (...) The hygiene conditions are terrible. lice, dirt, fleas, bed bugs devoured alive people. " - Leonard Szpuga, expelled farmer

Repatriates in transit camps were divided into 4 groups:

people who qualified for the German race,
persons able to go to forced labor,
elderly, the disabled and children,
persons for extermination in concentration camps.

In the camps, particularly children suffered - hunger, cold, disease and were more likely to die than adults . Children separated from their parents were separately transported in cattle cars (one car transported from 100 to 150 children) to the death camps at Majdanek and Auschwitz, and to factories in the Reich. Some of the children were transported to a concentration camp for children in Lodz [6].

The news of the drama of Children of Zamojszczyzna quickly spread across the country. Polish railroad workers conveyed the news of the transports of children to the camps to inhabitants of the cities where the transports had their parking stations. The inhabitants of Sobolev, Żelechów, Siedlce, Garwolin, Pilawa and Warsaw took a risk by trying to save children from the hands of Germans.

Only 800 of them returned to their homes .

From 150 000 of all Polish kidnapped children only a small fraction returned to Poland .
TheOther 6 | 3,821
4 Apr 2012 #43
Who committed ethnic cleansing on Polish soil during or after the war ? Here is a little example of German genocide committed...

How blonde are you? We are NOT comparing the severity of crimes (the Germans win hands down), we are talking about the fact that crimes happened on BOTH sides.
PennBoy 76 | 2,437
4 Apr 2012 #44
Here is a little example of German genocide committed on Polish children of Zamosc region . There were 150 000 of Polish chidren kidnapped during the war

The worst proven WWII German genocide in a single day was the pacifikations of Borów and 4 other nearby villages (1400 people) 2km from my father's village



.
rybnik 18 | 1,462
4 Apr 2012 #45
Those babcias reminded me of my babci from Stanisławów and the stories she told of the Ukrainians. But that's for another thread.
Funky Samoan 2 | 181
4 Apr 2012 #46
Do you think that such scribbles can give you any informative knowledge ? I guess not .

No offense, but yes, I think this "scribble" is much more informative to me than what I read from you so far.
Please check this link about the number of Germans with a Polish ethnic background: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polonia#Germany

It's about three million people or more than two percent of the German population, the second largest Polonia in the world. And this is only the number of Poles.

If you take all Germans who have ancestors that once spoke a Slavic language the number will increase up to 20 million easily.

No. After the WW2 resettlements, they lost the traditional area of conflict. :):):):)

Well, well, well, it was an area of conflict during the nationalisitc era, let's say from the late 18th century to 1945 but it wasn't in the centuries before, at least not most of the time. And it is likely that it wouldn't be an area of conflict now.

You know, if you take the German-French language border for example, an area that also was a zone of conflict in nationalistic times, the situation is completely different from the present day German-Polish language border: You have an area stretching from Switzerland, over Baden and Alsace, Saarland, Lorraine, Luxembourg and Belgium where both languages gradually merge. Many people that live close to the border speak both languages on a native level -- and this is one of the secrets why Germany and France get along pretty well since 1945. Because we have millions of cultural mediators: Alsatians that can explain the French soul on German TV, Saarlanders and German speaking Belgians that can explain the German soul to French speakers, you have Luxembourgers that took the best from both cultures. German Saarlanders that are influenced by French culture, French Lorrainers that are influenced by German culture.

Germans and Poles don't have this any longer. The language border is as sharp as sharp can be and you will hardly find a German that speaks Polish or has deep interest for the Polish nation and state. And in post-national times this is a disadvantage for Germans and Poles. It would be different and better if the mass expulsions of Poles and Germans between the years 1939 and 1948 had never happened.

PS. Germans were treated very fair compared to what they had done before. :):):)

This is a disputable statement. On the meta-level I surely have to agree. The German nation in total came off pretty well for what Nazi Germany did to the world.

But if you take a magnifier and enhance, the situation is a bit more complicated: Austrians, Bavarians, Rhinelanders, Swabians, people from Lower Saxony got away pretty well -- in 1955 their standard of life was much higher than the life standard of an average Pole in communist Poland.

But East Prussians, German Silesians and Pomeranians and people from Eastern Brandenburg (present day Lubusz) had to take pay the price for Nazi Germany's crimes. Up to 15 percent of them died between 1939 and 1947, millions of women got raped, they got expelled and lost everything the possessed and therefore their culture and dialects will get extinct soon. After the millions of crimes that happened to Polish citizens from Nazi Germany's side I don't expect you to be sorry about that, but it would be nice if it was respected from the Polish side they payed a big price for their wrongs between 1933 and 1945.

Again on the big meta-level the situation is clear: Nazi Germany started a war, tried to conquer the world, tried to destroy the Polish state, nation and culture and therefore Germany had to pay a price after they lost the war.

But if you go down on the personal level it's like "Classical" and Quantum physics -- it does not fit together! The grandmother of my girlfriend was raped by 15 red army soldiers in front of her three kids in April 1945, her husband died in a Soviet mining plant in Siberia in 1952 and she was chased away by Poles from her Lower Silesian home in October 1945, having two hours time to leave her house, on the way to the railway station somebody beat her in the face and stole her last belongings, then she was plugged into a freight train with her three children and got deported to West Germany, were she never has been before. Would you tell her she was treated fairly?

Don't get me wrong I don't blame Poland or the Polish people for what happened after the war. In times of anarchy and turmoil the scum of every nation: Rapists, Thieves and Sadists comes to the light. In general Germans were treated relatively fairly by Poles in contrary to the Russians that were much more brutal to German civilians.
Ironside 49 | 10,106
4 Apr 2012 #47
Just remind me how many Germans were killed while being "resettled". I hope you understand the difference.

how many ? there is no reliable records at all.
monia 3 | 212
4 Apr 2012 #48
You funny guy - the other - it seems to me that if you call me a blonde that means you may not have better argument , do you ? Really , is this thread about German -Polish war crimes? If you were a woman , using your rhetoric someone might call you the dumbest blonde ever who walked on earth . Funny guy - do you think that common crimes can be compared with genocide ? If Poles committed any crime against Germans they were simple common crimes judged or not in regular court trials . In Poland even a child from kindergarten knows the difference . But if you want to compare , go ahead and make a fool of yourself .

It's about three million people or more than two percent of the German population, the second largest Polonia in the world. And this is only the number of Poles.

I know the facts , dear . This is not a proof that those people are Germanized . . Just read more about that process. Forced Germanization is nothing to be proud of , but free choice of movement is guaranteed to every citizen within the EU .

It should be distinguished between Poles who found themselves within the German Confederation as a result of shifting borders, and Poles who immigrated to Germany after national uprisings or for commercial purposes (eg, during martial law, and after the Polish accession to the European Union).

So what`s your point? There are Poles in Germany and there are about 3 million of them .
Funky Samoan 2 | 181
4 Apr 2012 #49
how many ? there is no reliable records at all.

There are indeed no reliable sources.
The "Bund der Vertriebenen" always stated two to three million Germans died in the process. They just took statistical data from pre-war Germany and then looked how many of these people are registered in East and West Germany. And they also counted people as victims of expulsions you can count only indirectly at most, like Nazis that commited suicide before the Russians could take them, woman that killed themselves in order not to get raped, refugees that died of starvation in East or West Germany in the months and years after WWII. Sometimes even Wehrmacht soldiers that got killed in action were counted as "Vertreibungsopfer".

The actual number of casualties probably is much lower, about a couple of hundred thousands sounds realistic.

The English Wikipedia delivers a good summary about this topic:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Expulsion_of_Germans_after_World_War_II#Casualties
monia 3 | 212
4 Apr 2012 #50
Don't get me wrong I don't blame Poland or the Polish people for what happend after the war. In times of anarchy and turmoil the scum of every nation: Rapists, Thieves and Sadists comes to the light. In general Germans were treated relatively fairly by Poles in contrary to the Russians that were much more brutal to German civilians.

The grandmother of my girlfriend was raped by 15 red army soldiers

Don`t try to shift Russian Red Army crimes on Poles and also try to keep things in perspective. If you want to quote some crimes try to give an example of Polish soldiers crimes rather than Red Army soldiers, because we are not responsible for Red Army`s soldiers crimes. Try to find some examples of crimes done by Poles and then we will jbe able to udge the magnitude of them from the right perspective.

If I was a German I would go to Poland and visit all death camps monuments, put there some flowers and prayed for forgiveness as Willy Brandt did. Also German children shoud take an example from Jewish to make such trips compulsory for young students.

Some history :

The planned expulsion of the Germans were made on the basis of the Potsdam Agreement of 1945, further specific basis for the expulsions of Germans were the agreements concluded between the Government of the Polish and Soviet military administration in Germany from 05/05/1946 was (another was signed in 1947, 1948, 1949, and with the GDR in 1950) and the Polish-British from 02/14/1946 On the basis of these agreements the Germans were expelled from Polish to British (2/3 displaced) and Soviet (1/3 displaced) occupied zone. As a result of actions taken immediately after the war against the German population in Poland has left the territory of our country in the years 1945-1950 approximately 3.2 million Germans, which caused a decrease in the number of Polish territory to 1,8-1,6 million people. 2

Wild expulsion

The first movement of German civilians in the west began even before the shift to the front line of the Odra and Nysa (fall 1944). After the war, and before the signing of the Potsdam Agreement, so-called. wild expulsions took place. They left the worst memories of German refugees, projecting the whole problem expulsions from the east. German orders to leave the eastern territories of the Reich were issued far too late (January 1945), and willful desertion meant escape. The German population until the last moment misled by wartime Nazi propaganda and Hitler's dreams of victory was not quite prepared to evacuate. This made a huge panic in front of the approaching Soviet army resulted in the death of German civilians. This took place mainly in East Prussia, war stories and reports came mainly from the German press, which further resulted in East Prussia surprise "the life of war" and the subsequent actions of Soviet soldiers.

The Red Army entering to the first German lands has resulted in the massacre of the civilian population, which for various reasons, did not evacuate with the German army. There were reports of Russian soldiers looting, murdering, raping of women. Particularly popular is the story of the frontier of East Prussia Nemmersdorf village, whose inhabitants were mostly killed in a brutal manner and all the women before their death raped.

Such inhuman behavior of Soviet troops from the socio-psychological point of view is explained by general wildness caused by the war, and especially all retaliation for crimes carried out by Wehrmacht soldiers. The undisputed fact is that it happened in the areas of East Prussia where Soviet soldiers could unload the hatred of the enemy and humiliation of the war..
Funky Samoan 2 | 181
4 Apr 2012 #51
Don`t try to shift Russian Red Army crimes on Poles and also try to keep things in perspective.

Mona, where did I try to shift responsibility for crimes committed by Red Army soldiers on German civilians to Poles? Where do you think I left perspective in my posts?
monia 3 | 212
4 Apr 2012 #52
To give a proper perspective about expulsions , you should remember that :

The Nazi plan to ethnically cleanse the territories occupied by Germany in Eastern Europe during World War II, was called the Generalplan Ost (GPO). Germanisation began with the classification of people suitable as defined on the Nazi Volksliste. About 1.7 million Poles were deemed Germanizable, including between one and two hundred thousand children who were taken from their parents.

For the rest, expulsion was carried out.

/wiki/Nazi-Soviet_population_transfers

Poland`s population decreased from 35 million to about 23 million .
Ironside 49 | 10,106
4 Apr 2012 #53
The actual number of casualties probably is much lower, about a couple of hundred thousands sounds realistic.

Aligned to the Polish side(if we assume that Soviet Poles are indeed Poles that is) could be at most couple of thousands.

To give a proper perspective about expulsions ,

Chill out!!!
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
4 Apr 2012 #54
you should remembar

please stop moaning about what people should or shouldn't, the war is bloody over...

To everyone else with open mind:

"The most common ego identifications have to do with possessions, the work you do, social status and recognition, knowledge and education, physical appearance, special abilities, relationships, person and family history, belief systems, and often also political, nationalistic, racial, religious, and other collective identifications. None of these is you."

Eckhart Tolle - A great man who happens to be German... how's that for reconciliation.
TheOther 6 | 3,821
4 Apr 2012 #55
do you think that common crimes can be compared with genocide

So in your opinion, several hundreds of thousands of people who died during the ethnic cleansing in the east are just victims of some unimportant "common crime"? The atrocities that happened in the so-called labor camps of Potulice, Zgoda and Jaworzno for example are just "common crimes"? If that is so, we should end this discussion. I will file you under "just another PiS doofet".
Funky Samoan 2 | 181
4 Apr 2012 #56
Aligned to the Polish side(if we assume that Soviet Poles are indeed Poles that is) could be at most couple of thousands.

Surely the majority of German civilians got killed by the Red Army. German officials collected eye-witness-accounts of abused German civilians after the war. These accounts can be found at the Bundesarchiv in Berlin. Most atrocities that are documented there can be linked to Red Army members.

Of course there are also accounts of Poles mistreating Germans but it seems to be it was not the general rule.

Did any Poles go to jail for mistreating German civilians in 1945? I don't know that. I know that thousands of Czechs that injured or even killed Sudeten German civilians in 1945 were not prosecuted according to the Czechoslovakian Beneš-decrees that guaranteed a general pardon.
monia 3 | 212
4 Apr 2012 #57
None of these is you."

Agian you go personal .

Contrary to you I have no problems with my ego identification. Thanks to my possessions, the work I do, my social status and recognition, knowledge and education, physical appearance, personal charisma , dominant personality , my special abilities, relationships, my family history, system of my political beliefs and my popularity among friends , my aspirations my enterprising spirit, my pursuit of excellence, achievement and success

- my ego identification is very high which means that I am self-assured, self-confident, sociable and companionable, proud, compassionate, understanding and generous by nature. Being quite bold and courageous, I will speak my mind and express myself in a direct and no-nonsense manner in confrontational situations. Thanks to that others , my opponents , know where they stand with me, as I am always prepared to 'lay my cards on the table'.

So , knowing my nature, I will give you some advice, do not provoke me, because you are doomed for failure right from the start . You, with your acrimonious remarks about me , detached from the subject , convince me only that you have an inferiority complex in relation to me.
TheOther 6 | 3,821
4 Apr 2012 #58
I have no problems with my ego identification. Thanks to my possessions, the work I do...

Did your shrink write that down for you? :)
FlaglessPole 4 | 669
4 Apr 2012 #59
Agian you go personal

No, I clearly stated 'to every one else with open mind' before Tolle's quote, i.e. I was emphatic about NOT addressing you. Your persona was unequivocally excluded from my address as I knew his words would be completely lost on you.

What I wrote SPECIFICALLY to you, was the following: 'please stop moaning about what people should or shouldn't, the war is bloody over...' and that was personal only by virtue of having been directed at you.

Please work on your reading and comprehension skills.

P.S. Personally I couldn't care less about your persona though I would imagine lot of Poles did, as you truly embarrass them - and that is somewhat personal, as in me empathizing with Polish people. You as you still don't count.
OP pawian 168 | 11,158
4 Apr 2012 #60
Very interesting opinion.

But East Prussians, German Silesians and Pomeranians and people from Eastern Brandenburg (present day Lubusz) had to take pay the price for Nazi Germany's crimes.

Yes, indeed, they paid a horrible price.

After the millions of crimes that happened to Polish citizens from Nazi Germany's side I don't expect you to be sorry about that, but it would be nice if it was respected from the Polish side they payed a big price for their wrongs between 1933 and 1945.

Well, I am sorry while I discuss it with you, a cultural intelligent interlocutor who is able to explain his views in an unobtrusive way. :):):):)

Of course there are also accounts of Poles mistreating Germans

If those Germans were innocent civilians who neither supported Nazis nor participated in Nazi crimes and were disgusted/horrified at Hitler`s plans to exterminate Poles or turn them into slaves, then any atrocities committed on them by Poles were inexcusable and should be viewed as criminal behaviour, for which Poles should take responsibility during the current reconciliation process.

Now, the question is: how many innocent Germans like that were oppressed by Poles? Tens? Hundreds? Thousands?

Probably not millions.... :):):):)
Let`s face the truth - most Germans were actively involved.

Did any Poles go to jail for mistreating German civilians in 1945?

I seriously doubt it.


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