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Russians 'tortured to death' in Polish camps?


PennBoy 76 | 2,437
16 May 2011  #1
A plaque containing an inscription in Russian has appeared on a memorial near an old Polish prison-of-war camp dating from the Polish-Bolshevik war of 1919-1921, stating that Red Army soldiers were "brutally tortured in Polish death camps".

thenews.pl/1/10/Artykul/24732,Russians-%E2%80%98tortured-to-death-in-Polish-camps
Palivec - | 380
16 May 2011  #2
I'm divided on the topic. First of all, the strong language (brutally, tortured, death camp) is out of place and indicates the true intention of the initiators. Not conciliation but confrontation. Such a plague has to go immediately.

On the other hand: the Russian news site states that the current inscriptions don't mention the Russian dead. I don't know if it's true, but I know some places in Czechia and Poland were victims of Czechs and Poles get concealed on such official plagues by writing some vague phrases like "to remember the dead former inhabitants of this village/town" or "to remember the dead who died between 1945 and 1947". That's no conciliation either.

So, if the Polish plagues don't mention the Russian dead both sides are equally guilty.
cinek 2 | 335
16 May 2011  #3
So, if the Polish plagues don't mention the Russian dead both sides are equally guilty.

Right, It was Poles who attacked the innocent Russians, closed them all in the camp and shot in head then took their country and made it a colony for 180 years...
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,437
16 May 2011  #4
I'm divided on the topic. First of all, the strong language (brutally, tortured, death camp) is out of place and indicates the true intention of the initiators.

What i'd like to know is who did the Russians get to place that plaque in Poland?
Palivec - | 380
16 May 2011  #5
Right, It was Poles who attacked the innocent Russians, closed them all in the camp and shot in head then took their country and made it a colony for 180 years...

The (Western?) European spirit of reconciliation, on which the whole EU is actually based(!), isn't that narrow-minded.
cinek 2 | 335
16 May 2011  #6
So you expect that in the name of reconciliation we should start raising monuments for our aggressors?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
16 May 2011  #7
I'm divided on the topic. First of all, the strong language

I'm not, its a russian lie.

The prisoners died of variety of diseases and wounds not to mention the number of deaths is inflated several times over, it was war, Russia didnt feed its troops and Poland provided basic foodstuffs (1500 calories a day) a man will go hungry but will not starve on that, basic medical aid was also provided.

Russians on the other side did not take prisoners, they murdered everyone.

The (Western?) European spirit of reconciliation, on which the whole EU is actually based(!), isn't that narrow-minded.

Possibly because the majority of crimes was commited in the east of Europe which is why hypocrites like you find it easy to patronize nations who lost the most.
cinek 2 | 335
16 May 2011  #8
patronize nations who lost the most.

Hold on, which war are we talking about? The camp in Strzalkow was built during the war of 1919-21, when Soviets attacked newly released Poland. They didn't lose anyting then...
Palivec - | 380
16 May 2011  #9
So you expect that in the name of reconciliation we should start raising monuments for our aggressors?

No, I expect monuments for the dead!

Possibly because the majority of crimes was commited in the east of Europe which is why hypocrites like you find it easy to patronize nations who lost the most.

You're talking about the Jewish nation?
And this particular war was hardly more horrible than the trench warfare between the Germans and the French, and yet they have no problem to accept that before god all men are equal.
cinek 2 | 335
16 May 2011  #10
No, I expect monuments for the dead!

How many of them Russians raised for Germans in Stalingrad?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
16 May 2011  #11
No, I expect monuments for the dead!

Soldiers who raped, tortured, murdered and burned down entire towns? Are you barking mad? They were the enemy who wanted to destroy our country, our lives and take everything we held dear, they were savage and merciless to the civilians why would we honor them? From our point of view they dont deserve anything only a patronizing non-polish f*ck like you would try to insult us by telling us to put monuments to those people.

You're talking about the Jewish nation?

No about the Polish nation, Jews werent a nation back then, they were an ethnic group.

And this particular war was hardly more horrible than the trench warfare between the Germans and the French

It was a lot more horrible given that Russians burned entire towns with people in them regularly. I explained our reasons above.
Palivec - | 380
16 May 2011  #12
How many of them Russians raised for Germans in Stalingrad?

German soldiers in Russia are mostly burried in graves built after the fall of the Soviet Union.
But this doesn't matter. Respecting the dead is one of the core values of our societies. If we don't respect this value we don't respect ourselves. And no one expects huge monuments, but a humble plague commemorating the death is hardly to much to ask.

Soldiers who raped, tortured, murdered and burned down entire towns?

And you think other soldiers in other countries didn't rape, murder and burned down towns? And they didn't want to destroy other countries?

Sorry to tell you this, but forgiveness is a major virtue of the Christian faith. Without forgiveness the EU wouldn't exist. The founding nations back then replaced nationalistic affects with reason.

Kohl Mitterand

It was a lot more horrible given that Russians burned entire towns with people in them regularly.

So did the French and the Germans. Brûlez le Palatinat! Jeder Stos ein Franzos. 1.000.000 dead in just one battle. Leveled towns in France and Belgium. And this was not more horrible?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
16 May 2011  #13
German soldiers in Russia are mostly burried in graves built after the fall of the Soviet Union.

Thats not true, the burial place of more than 2/3rds of Wechrmacht soldiers are not known or marked with simple plaques, no monuments.

But this doesn't matter. Respecting the dead is one of the core values of our societies.

They're respected by having clean graves, but they were still a barbaric and inhumane enemy, to call for monument building is incredibly insolent and arrogant of you.

but a humble plague commemorating the death is hardly to much to ask.

And thats your problem? You can rest easy, those exist everywhere a grave is located, a simple cross or a plaque, they're not ways of honoring but basic human recognition of a resting place, do not call for respect though, they deserved none then and deserve none now.

A dead murderer is still a murderer.

And you think other soldiers in other countries didn't rape, murder and burned down towns?

Not on the scale that Russians did in 1920, Wechrmacht did but then again i believe that Wechrmacht soldiers dont deserve marked graves at all.

So did the French and the Germans. Brûlez le Palatinat! Jeder Stos ein Franzos. 1.000.000 dead in just one battle. Leveled towns in France and Belgium. And this was not more horrible?

No it was not, the casualities were mostly collateral or combatants, the civilian victims of delibarate murder were few and far between, Russians on the other hand murdered up to 30.000 civilians and had a plan to kill more than 200.000 more as well as completely obliterating all polish elites and heritage so please try and show some respect for Poles by not calling us out to respect fags who wanted to nuke our people and our way of life back to kingdom come.
OP PennBoy 76 | 2,437
16 May 2011  #14
Yea right, since when does Russia respect the dead or it's neighbors?? It's the bully on the block stopping only when tired or exhausted. The Russian soldiers were there to conquer Poland what respect do they deserve? Russians get mad at Estonians for taking down a statue or changing the writing, Estonians spoke the truth they didn't come there to liberate them but to re-occupy their small country, drunk Russian soldiers, rapists.
sascha 1 | 830
16 May 2011  #15
again i believe that Wechrmacht soldiers dont deserve marked graves at all

Why?

re-occupy their small country, drunk Russian soldiers, rapists

When the russian in its backyard feels threatened he's regulating that. us is going for that overseas and that's fine by you or most of the world? Put the measures right man.

A dead murderer is still a murderer.

Using that logic no monuments for soldiers, cause they are all murderers...unless of course the moral is defending their killings, right? ;) Bs.

Yea right, since when does Russia respect the dead or it's neighbors??

Same like other superpowers. :)
Palivec - | 380
16 May 2011  #16
And you all wonder why Polandball exists...
See, you all didn't even understand the argument. It's not about them, it's about US! It's about how WE respect our OWN values. If we don't respect our core values we don't have a reason to complain about the wrongdoings of others.

The Western Europeans had all right to hate the Germans in 1945. But they did what instead? They didn't threat Germany like the pariah of nations but founded the European Community instead. Germany became a stable democracy, France and Germany are best friends now, there are no borders anymore.

Looks like some people in Poland, 60 years after the Schuman Declaration, still stuck in the 19th century and aren't ready for modern Europe.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,997
16 May 2011  #17
Looks like some people in Poland, 60 years after the Schuman Declaration, still stuck in the 19th century and aren't ready for modern Europe.

I said before and that holds still true...In my opinion West-Germany and France were rebuilding democracies after the war, Poland was under communist rule which for decades got on with teaching hate and a kind of history which needed a common enemy which made the Russian the goodies...

The West had those decades to reconciliate, the East did not. More patience is needed!
z_darius 14 | 3,971
16 May 2011  #18
Bratwurst Boy

Thank you for the reasonable approach.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
16 May 2011  #19
Looks like some people in Poland, 60 years after the Schuman Declaration, still stuck in the 19th century and aren't ready for modern Europe.

Palivec, I agree with most of what you said, but to be friendly with the Russians in case of Russia-bordering states is to learn to love being spit at and bent over after every whistle. I don't think you would agree to that. You might say: "Oh, but we are talking about 1920 and the POW" and other historical events. Just realize: IT DOESN'T MATTER. This slime covers 1/9th of the Earth and they still bugger every surrounding state, destroying the possibility for normal development with their red flags, raping soldiers, KGB priests and other crap. You don't understand (I am not condescending) what they are. Not a single step backward is allowed when dealing with them, even in the innocent thing like remembering the past. Because if you do, the next thing, they will accuse you of something else and eat you alive.
Gregrog 4 | 100
16 May 2011  #20
Pavelic - so we have different values. We do not praise enemies, especially murders and rapist. We prise our soldiers, our heroes and those of the enemies who fought with honour and respect. Killing and raping civilians is not honourable. Soldiers aren't murder when he kill enemy's soldiers. Then he is a SOLDIER doing his job and his duty. But when he start to behave like animal, kill civilians, POW's, rape woman, then yes, he is a murder who should be put in front of firing squad.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,997
16 May 2011  #21
Pavelic - so we have different values. We do not praise enemies, especially murders and rapist.

Crap!

Nobody praises enemies, murderers or rapists!

In the West there has developed an understanding that the 18 year old conscript was just a young, hapless boy regardless the flag he fighted under. And that the vast majority of all armies pitched against each other by politics was made of young, hapless boys put to rot far away from home...not of demonized mass murderers only out to kill babies.

THAT is in my opinion the big difference.

That demonizing of the enemy soldiers stopped in western Europe shortly after the war, otherwise reconciliation and the building of a common Europe would not had been possible...but as seen again here, it never stopped in the East (at least till recently), quite the contrary it was a tool used by the soviet directed communists to hold up the wall against the enemy "fascist" west.

Decades of that demonizing is bound to leave it's traces...
Gregrog 4 | 100
16 May 2011  #22
And that the vast majority of all armies pitched against each other by politics was made of young, hapless boys put to rot far away from home...not of demonized mass murderers only out to kill babies.

Problem is that it is this young boy to choose if to rape or not. When he choose to rape he is rapist, not less, not more. Politics has nothing to do. He's guilty as this was his choice. Are he human or not? Does he got conscience, morality? If not it is just another argument against him.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,997
16 May 2011  #23
Problem is that it is this young boy to choose if to rape or not

You know that the majority of those young boy did neither rape nor were part of any atrocities at all, don't you!

The Wiesenthal center itself put the number of criminal axis soldiers at less than 10 percent...which made them the exception not the rule. But you are only talking about these criminals, as if they had been the rule.

And there is (was) a system behind criminalizing and demonizing the enemy... in Poland that was enforced through communist rule as they and the Soviets were the only ones to gain from non-reconciliation of Poland with it's neighbours, keeping up the old antagonism!
Gregrog 4 | 100
16 May 2011  #24
So? I don't care who they were, what they did. They were aggressors and the only thing to do is to bury them and put cross, descent or David's star or something like that. I won't prise enemy. I won't prise and I won't give a **** about bodies left 10ft under the ground when it comes to relations with their ancestors - until the ancestors will offend me at this case.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,997
16 May 2011  #25
I agree with you....I would prefer a small plaque to the monster of soviet memorial in Treptow. But I also would fight for the right of the dead red armist to have a dignified place of rest in german soil. Most of them had been hapless boys far away from home too..
Gregrog 4 | 100
16 May 2011  #26
But I also would fight for the right of the dead red armist to have a dignified place of rest in german soil. Most of them had been hapless boys far away from home too..

Indeed. Grave. But not monument to prise them.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
16 May 2011  #27
@Sasha.

Because every German who fought for the 3rd Reich promoted the idea of death and concentration camps, i believe that in justice and fairness any german male or female above 16 in any way affilited with the 3rd Reich needed to be summarily shot and buried in some nice mass unmarked grave.

Russians i feel less strongly about mainly because as a nation they're pretty much cattle and will commit any attrocity if the goat herder orders it.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,997
16 May 2011  #28
Because every German who fought for the 3rd Reich ...

Again...for such a supposedly independent thinker you have bought all propaganda hook line and sinker!
Your hate is disturbing nobody, the Germans at least, but only yourself...like a wound festering and stinking under the skin.

It needs patience....
Koala 1 | 332
16 May 2011  #29
The Wiesenthal center itself put the number of criminal axis soldiers at less than 10 percent...which made them the exception not the rule.

Are you kidding me? <10% of people behaving like wild animals is a huge number, <0,1% and we could talk about the army holding some standards.
Bratwurst Boy 5 | 9,997
16 May 2011  #30
Well...it beats putting whole armies as animals when 90 percent are behaved within the laws....
Listening to some of you one could think it was 100 percent of wild animals! ;)

But as I said, a real reconciliation with the East needs more time...probably some decades...
That it can be achieved shows the West, especially between Germany and France, arch enemies for centuries! :)


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