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The Riga Peace Treaty


MilitaryMan 1 | -
18 Mar 2015 #1
Russia admits responsibility for theKatyn tragedy, and despite all the modern political controversy highlights this year large funds to support the Katyn memorial in good condition, the Polish attitude towards prisoners of war graves at least extremely depressing. They are still considered something of Mordor Orcs, who came to seize and destroy the holy Polish soil only from innate ferocity - and their graves are in an appropriate form. At the same time fundamentally ignores the fact that the soldiers of the Red Army never would have been at the gates of Warsaw, did not come before the Polish lancers in Minsk and Kiev!
Polonius3 1,000 | 12,448
18 Mar 2015 #2
Minsk and Kyiv were part of the Polish-Lithuanian Commonwealth whose borders Piłsduski had hoped to restore in the form of a Lithuanian Confederation. Had he succeeded, there may never have been a Soviet Union with its Stalins, Gulags, Katyńs and other "progressive" achievements.
goofy_the_dog
18 Mar 2015 #3
thats the only thing that this forum lacked.. a Russian 5th columnist!
All communist Russian corpses should be shipped back to Russia long time ago, i dont see why should we support the graves of our butchers..

also all of the communist monuments should be destroyed long time ago as well just like it is being done in Ukraine and just it has been done in Czech Republic and Slovakia and East Germany.

How dare you compare Katyn to the graves of the NKVD, and the RedArmists that have "raped, stolen and murdered" their way through Poland??

Learn some history before you make such remarks dude
Borek Falecki - | 52
18 Mar 2015 #4
Why Soviet monuments should be protected - an article from the Guardian

Red Army monuments are a reminder of the astounding Soviet sacrifice during the war. You find them not only in the ex-communist bloc but in western Europe too - Berlin and Vienna being most prominent. Those two cities even feature quotations from Stalin, which remain in place without harassment. The degree of the Soviet sacrifice seems to be appreciated there.

theguardian/world/2014/sep/29/soviet-ussr-monuments-should-be-protected

The Soviet army played a major role in saving this part of Europe from the realisation of Hitler's master plan in the east, which proposed the colonisation, enslavement and eventual extermination of the Slavic population.

For Russians as for any other nation to honor their veterans of wars is to honor not only heroes, but victims. Think of them as of very young people.

There is a 100 word limit when copying and pasting from internet sources.
Barney 14 | 1,469
18 Mar 2015 #5
That must be one of the few Guardian articles that is not rabidly anti Russian. It is ridiculous that any explanation need given as to why it's a bad idea to destroy these monuments.

knuckle dragging iconoclasts don't do reason just ask ISIS as they attempt to destroy the past, today blowing up a museum with Polish visitors in Tunisia.
Harry
18 Mar 2015 #6
When Barney and I agree about something, which we clearly do about these monuments, you know there's very little room for an opinion other than the one we share!

Personally I'd say the interesting thing about the treaty of Riga was the way Poland stabbed its Ukrainian allies in the back and sold their country to the Soviets for 30 pieces of silver (ok, actually 30 million roubles in gold, but the principle is the same).
goofy_the_dog
18 Mar 2015 #7
the Guardian

and everything'd "jasne" ;) Guardian may be anti-Russian.. but it still is pro-Soviet .. since it is a leftist newpaper.
Let me remind you of 17.09.39 and the Soviet invasion of Poland and the puppet government that they have created...
Westerners forget the history, Poles live through it.
Vox - | 175
18 Mar 2015 #8
It is ridiculous that any explanation need given as to why it's a bad idea to destroy these monuments.

What is bad in eradicating iconography of the colonial regime?

Poland stabbed its Ukrainian allies in the back and sold their country to the Soviets for 30 pieces of silver (ok, actually 30 million roubles in gold, but the principle is the same).

Incorrect:

Poland was to receive monetary compensation (30 million rubles in gold) for its economic input into the Russian Empire during the times of partitions of Poland.

Harry
18 Mar 2015 #9
Dress it up anyway you want, Vox, Poland did exactly what she'd promised her Ukrainian allies she would not do and accepted 30 million in exchange for doing that.
goofy_the_dog
18 Mar 2015 #10
sources Harry?
Why should we care about Ukraine anyway? We did what was best for us and good! We should follow the British example
Vox - | 175
18 Mar 2015 #11
Dress it up anyway you want, Vox, Poland did exactly what she'd promised her Ukrainian allies she would not do and accepted 30 million in exchange for doing that.

That obvious attempt at humour failed miserably.
Barney 14 | 1,469
18 Mar 2015 #12
Desecrating war graves and destroying war monuments is what goofy was suggesting, that is not the same as renaming public places or removing party political symbols. ISIS destroyed Assyrian monuments, the Taliban destroyed the big Buddhas, ISIS in Libya want to destroy Greco-Roman towns. It wouldn't be an attempt to falsify history it would be worse it would be an attempt to basterdise the past.

The de colonial argument always fails at the first economic hurdle.
Harry
18 Mar 2015 #13
The sources, goofy, are the text of the 1920 Treaty of Warsaw and the 1921 Treaty of Riga. Enjoy reading them.
goofy_the_dog
18 Mar 2015 #14
Yet again Brits and other foreigner completely failing at grasping the polish mentality and our history. maybe I am bit radical with taking the fallen "comrades" back to Russia.. but that is my opinion, same as taking back the Nazi scuum back to Germany, fine many Poles will disagree with me on this, everyone's entitled to their opinions.. but leaving the monuments??? Hell NO! Destroy them and the send them brick by brick to Russia to remind them of what they have done on my lands.

Instead place monuments like this:

Red Armist liberating Poland
Harry
18 Mar 2015 #15
Er, goofy, that monument was commentating German women, not Polish women, hence the name. And Polish authorities did tear it down.
Barney 14 | 1,469
18 Mar 2015 #16
Goofy it's grand to have an opinion don't however confuse it with made up nonsense.
goofy_the_dog
18 Mar 2015 #17
Yes yes Harry, you are showing your complete lack of knowledge of the Polish history :), no the monument described a Polish woman being raped by a Russian "soldat" stop lying for a second pleaseee

Er, goofy, that monument was commentating German women, not Polish women, hence the name. And Polish authorities did tear it down.

se.pl/wydarzenia/kraj/rosja-oburzona-pomnikiem-radzieckiego-zolnierza-gwalcacego-ciezarna-kobiete_360348.html

Sculpture of the Soviet soldier raping a pregnant woman angers Russians. According to Alexander Alexeyev , the Russian ambassador , sculpture incites to hatred on grounds of nationality .

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_during_the_liberation_of_Poland

historia.newsweek.pl/gwalty-armii-czerwonej---boje-sie-tych-diablow--rosjan----,100278,1,1.html

Mass rape wave came in 1945 . The more the front of the Red Army approached Elblag , Gdansk and Berlin, the more massive and brutal sexual violence became.

Vox - | 175
19 Mar 2015 #18
Barney I detect here a slight difference of opinions.

Public monuments in colonial Nairobi were visual links to the British empire, and served as a means of asserting imperial power. During this period, colonial memories and identities were inscribed into Nairobi's landscape by the dominant group, the elite of the European population. However, at the moment of Kenya's achievement of independence from colonial rule, such identities and assertions of power were challenged as statues were removed from the city

For the Kenyan novelist, playwright and essayist, Ngũgĩ wa Thiong'o, power through cultural subjugation was the principal tool of colonialism. The monuments of Nairobi can be read as a history of cultural artefacts used by the coloniser to dominate and subjugate the colonised.[/i]

Harry
19 Mar 2015 #19
Goofy, it's called "Komm Frau". It was deliberately put up in a town that was 97% German in 1945. It is to German women.
goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #20
keep lying man, sources dont lie though ;)
Harry
19 Mar 2015 #21
They certainly don't, goofy, unlike you, as I will now demonstrate:

The statue, entitled Komm Frau (Come Here Woman) was installed on Gdansk's Avenue of Victory (Aleja Zwyciestwa) late on Saturday evening. Artist Jerzy Szumczyk, a fifth year student at Gdansk's Academy of Fine Arts, told Polish Radio that he had read extensively on the subject of rape by the Red Army as it advanced across Eastern Europe towards Berlin from 1944-45. Szumczyk claimed he "was unable to cope with it" and so created a statue to express his feelings. Historians have estimated that over 1 million German women were raped by Soviet soldiers from 1944-45.

thenews/1/9/Artykul/149969,Red-Army-rape-statue-removed-in-Gdansk
Barney 14 | 1,469
19 Mar 2015 #22
I don't see your point at all, digging people up and destroying war memorials is not the same as renaming public places or relocating political symbols, infact most post colonial places leave statues etc in place.
goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #23
Okay firstofall, thenews.pl I never heard iof that source, its not the mainstream at all, however all of the Polish sources are saying that the monument was raised to the Polish women.. someone is grabbing the wrong end of the stick...



I don't see your point at all, digging people up and destroying war memorials is not the same as renaming public places or relocating political symbols, infact most post colonial places leave statues etc in place.

We have destroyed all of the Nazi German monuments, them nasty German crows etc, we should also destroy the Communist symbol as tehya re not part of our culture but of the Russian one, they remind us of our enslavement and therefore should destroyed.. also writings on such monuments are deeply false and often propagate Russian Communist propaganda. such as that the Russians have "liberated us" etc... no that has to go on the bin of history just like Lenins and Stalins monuments were trhown away.
Harry
19 Mar 2015 #24
PolskieRadio is not mainstream at all?! You've really out-done yourself there, goofy, claiming that Poland's state-owned radio isn't mainstream!
goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #25
the news.pl is not, Polskie Radio is, however I dont believe that the news presented on thenews.pl is the same as on the Polskie RAdio since thenews.pl is untrue, have you seen my sources, have you seen the TVN footage???

Id rather believe TVN and other major Polish sttaions than some dodgy site which is written by God knows who for foreigners only.
Harry
19 Mar 2015 #26
Part of Polskie Radio, thenews.pl is the leading English language news resource for Polish news.

thenews.pl/1/64/Artykul/23557,About-Us
goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #27
Have you seen my TVN, se.pl, and newsweek sources.. no? still keeping to your crappy 3rd party for foreigners only source?
jon357 63 | 14,255
19 Mar 2015 #28
Desecrating war graves and destroying war monuments is what goofy was suggesting, that is not the same as renaming public places or removing party political symbols. ISIS destroyed Assyrian monuments, the Taliban destroyed the big Buddhas, ISIS in Libya want to destroy Greco-Roman towns.

I very rarely agree with you Barney, however I do here. War graves and memorials in particular should be respected. Most of the soldiers were conscripts who had little or no choice than be there.

It wouldn't be an attempt to falsify history it would be worse it would be an attempt to basterdise the past.

Not unknown in Poland. Have you been to Tarnowo near Poznan where they tore up the gravestones in the German cemetery and rebuilt the facade of the church in a more Polish style that it had never previously known? Plus of course the renaming of towns to try and erase their history.
Harry
19 Mar 2015 #29
OK, goofy, it's understandable you don't know the parts of Polskie Radio, it's not as if radios in your country can be tuned to it. But perhaps you've heard on The Economist magazine?

Jerzy Bohdan Szumczyk, 26, a student at Gdansk's Fine Arts Academy, placed a sculpture called "Komm, Frau" (Come, Woman), depicting a Red Army soldier raping a pregnant German woman while holding her hair and putting a gun to her head, on a street in the city then known as Danzig

economist/blogs/easternapproaches/2013/10/poland-and-russia

Or the Daily Mail?

Polish town tears down statue marking the rape of millions of German women by Russian soldiers

The statue, entitled Komm Frau (Come Here Woman), appeared on Gdansk's Avenue of Victory on Saturday evening.

goofy_the_dog
19 Mar 2015 #30
Still haven't relied in my relaton to my sources Harry, you should refresh your knowledge of reading I think ;)


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