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Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians?


Meathead 5 | 495
6 Nov 2012 #211
Unfortunately, you people are confusing geography with CULTURE. Poland is where Western Europe begins culturally. Dominika99 the book you listed is about Russia searching for some cultural identity by approaching Poland. It's not about Poland approaching Russia (culturally speaking there was nothing there for the Poles). Apparently you guys didn't read the links that I posted, more specifically the, "History of Philosophy in Poland": en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_philosophy_in_Poland. If you bother to read this, Polish Philosophers were studying with Thomas Aquinas in Italy in the 13th Century and throughout the Middle Ages there was interaction (an exchange of ideas) with France and Germany and Scotland. There was no mention of Russia. I was wrong, Poles don't look West they are West. Poland is to

Russia what England is to France.
aphrodisiac 11 | 2,441
6 Nov 2012 #212
I was wrong, Poles don't look West they are West.

If you go West enough you will end up in the East;).
zetigrek
6 Nov 2012 #213
.And only reason for some collective prejudice that I see, is foremost believe in genetical inferiority of Eastern Slavs and their genetical similarity in those negative traits to each outher

What?! I've never heard more weird and ridiculous statement. Again something you compeletely made up.
Moreover, for Poles Russians and Ukrainians are two separate nations and they don't mix them up.

Do you want to say that some people seriously believe that majority of Ukrainians are educated from the cradle as ultranationalists and Polish-haters?

I don't know if they are, but I wouldn't find that explanation unprobable, of course if that was true that they hate us...

The way media presents a country have a lot to do with dislikes and likes among society to a country and its citizens.

I didn`t write that all Poles dislike Russians and Ukrainians but it would be fool to deny that plenty of them do.

Oh, that's the notions I talk about. I have no idea what media tells you in Ukraine but Polish people rarely have something against Ukrainians. As I said Russians are a different story.

Then only posibility for colletive prejudice is something genetical.From this follows increased interest to anything bad that Ukrainians may ever do.Which is not proportional to anything bad that more Western nations did.Sorry, but to deny it is just meaningless.

Why won't you just accept that Ukrainians are indifferent to Poles? You keep on pushing your beliefs ignoring what people tell you... hey maybe you want to talk to yourself, you don't need anybody in your discussion.

Is there any realistic story?

So you think they are lying? Just deal with the truth. No one expets from you to feel guilty for that crimes. But please don't deny it!

I`m very sorry about you relatives, but doesn`t is seem strange to you that on this thread already many people readily claimed that UPA soldiers killed their relatives.

Including me only 3.
If you find that weird then maybe the scale of the crime is underestimated, who knows...

And I did NOT deny anything, I just asked questions. For some of them I still have no answer.

No you deny it and don't want to hear answers too.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
6 Nov 2012 #214
If you find that weird then maybe the scale of the crime is underestimated, who knows...

This article mentions that some ``Number of Polish victims known by their names`` exist.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historiography_of_the_Volyn_tragedy

In the same time there is no reference for this statement. If they are known by their names there
should exist NAME by NAME list of victims.Was it ever published in Internet? If yes, could I get
link to it? Or at least there is mention in Internet that this list was ever published in writen form?
If yes, where exactly?
I suggest nobody had need to hide truth about UPA massacres.They never were allies of comunists
and fought against them.If Poles seem to be so much victimized after 70 years after events did they
try to create name by name list of victims back to 1945-1955? And open memoreal to the victims?
And did Polish comunist government tried to created some documented investigation of something
that happened and to create exact NAME by NAME list of victims? If yes, could you give some link
about it? Maybe I have trashy memory but I do not remember that during USSR or independent
Ukraine I would hear about some giant UPA massacres.And this forum is about arguments, not
emotions.If I don`t know some well known things, you have chance to explain them to me and to
everyone. I found planty of photos in Internet about Volyn massacre horrors.There is some sliced
bodies, tortured and killed children etc.I wonder who and for what reason ever did those photos?
It were UPA maradeurs who had high quality photocameras and professional photographers or
maybe scarred and massacred villagers did them? It is interesting that those photos survived
until scanners and judging by scanned immeges did not even turn yellow for 60-70 years.
I wander what was quality of phototape and photopaper that got in hands of those maradeurs in
1941-1943? Also I still have no explanation why Ukrainians created entire army while 2 millions
of Poles didn`t try to create any self-defence.And this taking in account that at least some mechanisms
of law protection should exist even under occupation for example what about usual police or local
government?

Including me only 3

Here is a quote of Boletus

Look, part of my family came from Kresy but I have nothing against Ukrainians, even though some of my family terribly suffered through some of them.

So now at least 4.And this is form dozen of users who according to profile are Poles and posted any meaningfull post.
Wulkan - | 3,243
6 Nov 2012 #215
I couldn't care less whether Poland is Central or Eastern Europe

so why you argue then? plus I was anwsering Vlad123's statement

Every time this topic comes up I wonder why it is so important for some Poles that they "officially" belong to the west.

I've never said that Central Europe is west but it's not east, it's just central, how hard is it to understand.

The perception in Western Europe that Poland is part of the East will not change as long as people are alive who can remember the Wall.

Does this mean that eastern part of Germany (GDR) is Eastern Europe for Western Europe?
boletus 30 | 1,366
6 Nov 2012 #216
Here is a quote of Boletus

And the next quote from Boletus was, more or less: I do no care to discuss my private affairs, but here is a PUBLIC book on internet documenting atrocities committed by UPA both on Polish population and on righteous Ukrainian neighbours.

I already advised you to browse the source I already posted before:
nawolyniu.pl/sprawiedliwi/sprawiedliwi.pdf
You ignored it because that would seem to be to inconvenient to you, right VLAD? Notwithstanding that the book actually shows some Ukrainians in a good light. There you have the realistic stories you ask about. 502 of them. Village by village. In the context of help received from the righteous Ukrainian neighbours. I previously posted some statistic from that book demonstrating how many of them risked their lives, and how many of them were murdered for that in the proces. For your convenience, you will find the table with this statistics on page #20.

So do not play dumb.

In the same time there is no reference for this statement. If they are known by their names there should exist NAME by NAME list of victims.Was it ever published in Internet? If yes, could I get link to it? Or at least there is mention in Internet that this list was ever published in writen form?
If yes, where exactly?

Here is that book again, mister: all 223 pages. With the names of victims - if known, names of the helpers - if known, and the names of Ukrainian helpers murdered by UPA - if known. Many are anonymous. The index itself is about 11 pages long, three columns to the page. There are five pages of sources listed: monographies, chronicles, articles, archives:

In Polish, but I am not going to translate that stuff for you. I'll just make one exception, to show you a typical record (some are short, some are long).

Zamlicze, gmina Chorów, Horochów County, Wołyń Voivodship, parish £okacze - a village and an estate, inhabited mostly by Ukrainians.
On July, 11, 1943 a large gang of UPA murdered in both places about 100 Poles, Some local Ukrainians provided help to those who escaped the pogrom. The girls Krystyna Irena Lepko and Janina Gałka found the shelter at Ukrainians Paraska and Maciuczka. Later Lepko was sheltered for a month by Ukrainian Mychaiło Gidzun.

Ukrainian Stepan Stolarczuk saved a three year old daughter of murdered Barański family and brought her up as his own child, even though he already had three children of his own.

At the and of August 1943 the Poles who came back to harvest were attacked again. Several of them were able to escape to £okacze, thanks to the help of the Ukrainians. They were: Krysiakowa with daughter Bogusława, Adam Szelestowski and Józef Gruszecki. Some friendly Ukrainians carried them away in night, hidden in hey in the wagons.

"It was almost dark - recalls Bogusława Nowicka nee Krysiak - when a Ukrainian woman came for potatoes and she saw us. She recognized my mom and she signed out to lie down. Later in night she came back with a big pot of milk, bread, head scarves and a blouse for me. She said that we have to run because the Banderas are preparing to search for hiding Poles. In addition, when they buried the dead in the barn, they realized that my mom and I were missing. If they found us in her field they would kill her entire family. [...] Later came her husband and Jan Szelestowski, a son of the woman who saved herself last June from the cowshed set on fire.[...] The Ukrainian led us through the wet meadows. This was the safest road. For the light we had the glow of burning Polish villages"

Source: L. Karłowicz, Ludobójcy i ludzie..., s. 23-25 (relacja Bogusławy Nowickiej z d. Krysiak); W. Siemaszko, E. Siemaszko, Ludobójstwo..., t. 1, s. 148.


Look mister, you came here uninvited, with all that pretences, demands, requests, imagined stereotypes and soviet arguments... And the biggest demand seems to be : WHY DON'T YOU LOVE US? Well, Vlad, even if your were the prettiest Ukrainian girl I will never love you for that simple reason that you have demonstrated your ridiculous attitude here. You started arguments about the movie "With fire and sword", and you started all the discussion about your OUN and UPA. It was not me, I responded to your idiotic defence of your heroes from OUN and UPA.

Last night one Ukrainian man joined me in the local bar and we had nice conversation about the American and Ukrainian elections. I have learned one thing or two from him. Somehow he choose me as his buddy, knowing quite well that I am Polish. I wonder why, VLAD the troll?
TheOther 6 | 3,692
6 Nov 2012 #217
so why you argue then?

I didn't argue, I was taking the p*ss out of you.

Does this mean that eastern part of Germany (GDR) is Eastern Europe for Western Europe?

I don't know what Europeans think about East Germans in particular (it's a broader brush East Europeans are usually painted with), but I know that many people in the old West Germany see their ex GDR brethren as some sort of uncivilized, naive commies (Ossis). Yes, it's in their heads; and it's a remnant of Cold War times as I've said earlier.

Unfortunately, you people are confusing geography with CULTURE.

Nope. Anyone who has lived in Europe for an extended period of time knows that many West Europeans look down on their Eastern counterparts as some sort of poor cousins from beyond the (geographically and ideologically defined) Iron Courtain. Don't forget that most people who grew up in the 1950's - 1980's were tought at school that everyone in the East Bloc was their enemy. Should get better over time.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
6 Nov 2012 #218
Here is that book again, mister:

I do not read Polish well enough to do work reading all of it, and I do not argue that everything writen there is holy truth, but if I no

make mistake it contains only dozens of some Ukrainian names who according to author saved Poles.
But what I would be glad to see is NAME by NAME list of those many tens of thousand Poles who where kiled.Wikipedia states that such list suppose to exist.It would be perfect also if this list I mentioned has reference to government research team.

Also I would be glad to know when grieving relatives or Polish government opened the first memorial to all those innocent victims.
zetigrek
6 Nov 2012 #219
Vlad123
I even flicked through the wikipedia article to get know what are you babbling about again... Contact Mrs Siemaszko who gathered that list.

reference to government research team.

There are references at the end of the article. The numbers for those references are 122 and 123. Who has done the research is written in the text. Why are you asking stupid questions? Couldn't you read it on your own?

Also I would be glad to know when grieving relatives or Polish government opened the first memorial to all those innocent victims.

I don't know any commemoration places expect a cross at my local cementary. Many people light candles there every All Saints holidays.
Wulkan - | 3,243
6 Nov 2012 #220
I didn't argue, I was taking the p*ss out of you.

wow, good you told us because nobody would have noticed. Take your toys and troll somewhere else.

Polish lang. seems to be suspiciously similar to Russian,

I was wondering why I can't understand Russian, and now you're telling me this? lol

I do not read Polish well enough to do work reading all of it

OP Vlad123 7 | 204
6 Nov 2012 #221
I would be glad to know what do you think about hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians and Russians that have been sold in different countries as a slaves.Western governments seem to do little about it.What mechanism of prevention of such crimes could be implemented? Are Polish woman or men been sold in slavery?If not, how Polish government succeded to prevent it?

kyivpost/content/ukraine/border-service-polish-consular-officials-in-lutsk-helped-sell-ukrainian-women-into-sexual-slavery-abroad-311604.html?flavour=mobile
Wulkan - | 3,243
6 Nov 2012 #222
Are Polish woman or men been sold in slavery?If not, how Polish government succeded to prevent it?

We sell Ukrainian women instead
boletus 30 | 1,366
6 Nov 2012 #223
I do not read Polish well enough to do work reading all of it, and I do not argue that everything writen there is holy truth, but if I no
make mistake it contains only dozens of some Ukrainian names who according to author saved Poles.

Look, VLAD, the table in the page 20 is based only on this book, not anything else. And this book is very selective - it only lists those events, where some Ukrainians have shown some mercy or help, however small that would be. In other words, it does not list any events where no such help was offered. As such it shows the numbers which are under-estimated more or less 10 times.

So the last entry in that table is a total summary from all 502 villages, in all 7 voivodships from Wolhynia, Eastern Galicia and Western Galicia (Rzeszów and Lublin), mentioned in this book:

Places: 502
Killed: 18 829
Acts of help: 882
Saved: 2 527
Savers: 1 341
Savers known by name: 896
Savers murdered for helping: 384

So no, VLAD, no matter how you read that table it lists way more than only "dozens of some Ukrainian names who according to author saved Poles."

But what I would be glad to see is NAME by NAME list of those many tens of thousand Poles who where kiled.Wikipedia states that such list suppose to exist.It would be perfect also if this list I mentioned has reference to government research team.

I tried to stay away from posting all what I know about all atrocities. I tried to keep it quiet, not to get it inflamed. But you evidently ask for it. So I might as well satisfy your wishes when I find some time.

Also I would be glad to know when grieving relatives or Polish government opened the first memorial to all those innocent victims.

I am not sure I understand you here, but there have been some acts of formal reconciliation, usually on the local level.

But you may want to see an Interview with a Ukrainian historian prof. Jarosław Hrycak with Polish Press Agency (PAP). On October, 14 there was the 70th anniversary of establishment of UPA (Ukrainian Insurgent Army). This is partially for your education, and partially for ours, because it reflects the attitudes of various groups of Ukrainians, representing views similar to VLAD's here.

PAP: - Is the Ukrainian society aware of the size of the crimes committed by the UPA on Poles in Volhynia?

Jaroslaw Hrycak: - No, there is no such awareness. There are two reasons for this. First, half of Ukrainians do not know anything about the events in Volhynia. These are the data from the surveys of 2003, carried out during the discussion that took place on this time in Poland and Ukraine. It turned out that virtually no one in the east and south of Ukraine, and to a large extent in the center of the country, knew of the past events there.

This shows the level of amnesia in the Ukrainian society. Those who know what it was, keep in their mind the heroic image of the UPA. In this picture there is no place for the UPA as a party that could commit murders, which could be to blame. and it is - let's call it - a great story. In this great story there are little stories in which nobody talks about the UPA actions against the Poles, Jews, or even Ukrainians with different political views.

PAP: - Are Ukrainian historians in agreement with the Polish estimates of the number of victims?

JH: - Most disagree - believing that these estimates are exaggerated. Serious historians believe that there is no chance, no need to compare the number of victims, since there were a lot more of them on the Polish than on the Ukrainian side. However, there is skepticism about the scientific "inflation" of the Polish estimates, which - I stress it here - has nothing to do with the evaluation of the phenomenon itself.

PAP: - Is it possible to have the joint Polish-Ukrainian memory for that period?

JH - I think it's possible, but it is a matter of action. There are groups on both sides who aim at reconciliation. There was some motion in this direction in 2003. There was a symbolic reconciliation in Volhynia with Polish and Ukrainian presidents, Aleksander Kwasniewski and Leonid Kuchma, attending. But the problem was that it was a reconciliation with the participation of heads of state, not society. Journalists wrote about "The reconciliation behind the cordons of the militia". Behind these cordons stood the people who were against reconciliation, believing that it was degrading.

Today, I see even less chance that our government will deal with this, as a politics of remembrance was passed on Dmytry Tabacznyk, an education minister, who is openly pro-Russian. In his case pro-Russian means anti-Polish, which he does not hide. Therefore, I think that we cannot expect anything from the Ukrainian authorities, and this means that the burden of reconciliation lies with society. I remember sharp discussions about Eaglets Cemetery in Lviv, when it seemed that no agreement would ever happen, but in fact it occurred. It has become so, inter alia, through the involvement of the churches in this matter, which resulted in an ecumenical prayer on Eaglets Cemetery and at the graves of Ukrainian Sich Riflemen in Lviv.

Now we are preparing something similar in order to commemorate the events in Volhynia, and events in Chełm (about demolishing the Orthodox churches in the 30s of the twentieth century - PAP). We, meaning a group of Ukrainian and Polish public activists. We want to make a symbolic act in these matters. I once again recall Madeleine Albright's known words that reconciliation is like riding a bike; as soon as you stop pedalling you fall to the ground. We must always try to strive for reconciliation. Reconciliation should be a matter of society. I think it's about time for it.

PAP: - How can you explain the deep divisions in Ukrainian society regarding evaluation of the UPA ?

JH: - In theory, information about the UPA was never to be public knowledge, because that was a fundamental policy line of the Soviet Union. There was no talk about UPA, because just mentioning the name of the UPA was then treated as a hidden propaganda of UPA. The same attitude was directed towards hetman Ivan Mazepa or historian and politician Mykhailo Hrushevsky. Those were forbidden topics. In western Ukraine, the memory of the UPA survived because it was part of the family history. It's hard to imagine any inhabitant of Galicia, and Volhynia, which would not be involved in this story one way way or another. Everyone had a brother, uncle or father who was in the UPA and such stories are passed down the family line.

It is also important to know that many people suffered for the real, or imagined by the Soviet authorities, cooperation with the UPA. Many were persecuted by the NKVD, many were sent to Siberia. Dimensions of this phenomenon is difficult to assess, although historians have agreed that in 1946-47 there was virtually no adult male in western Ukraine, who would not be suspected by the NKVD of involvement in the UPA. These family stories only now are coming to light. Another part of the story was developed in the Ukrainian diaspora communities in the West. These stories were written down mostly by UPA members who - of course - created a heroic picture of the formation.

PAP: - However, not everyone in Ukraine have a positive attitude towards the UPA?

JH: - The strongly negative attitude towards UPA has that part of society which is guided by the Soviet version of history, but I would like to emphasize that in this version there is no place for Poland. It is interesting that the Soviet propaganda never used the events in Volhynia as an instrument of struggle against the UPA, or the memory of the UPA. This part of Ukrainian society, declaring the Soviet version of history, considers UPA fighters as bandits, because in their opinion the UPA fought against the Soviet Union, and therefore collaborated with the enemy.

Another argument is that the UPA were the nationalists. The nationalism in eastern and southern Ukraine, is one of the worst words. Just as in western Ukraine there is a negative way of thinking about the communists, in the east and south people think similarly about the nationalists. According to them UPA acted not only against the USSR, but was also in favor of the separation of Ukraine from Russia, which for many people in the East, who work for rapprochement with Russia, is not acceptable. Personal memories have also some impact on how UPA is being received.

After World War II, in order to strengthen the Soviet power in western Ukraine, agitators were sent there, including young women teachers from the east and south of Ukraine. Some of them remained there, however, there were accidents when they were warned by the UPA against such activities, or they were even murdered. To sum up: the east of Ukraine believes that the UPA was "a stab in the back" during the struggle between the USSR and Germany. But I repeat once again: Poland is not present in these stories. Poland is present only in this part of the myth, which relates to western Ukraine, but not in connection with Vohlynia, but with the interwar period, in which Poles oppressed Ukrainians, therefore Ukrainians had the right to oppose them.

PAP: What are the views the Ukrainian youth on the UPA ?

JH: The general trend is that the sharp division between the east and west of Ukraine is blurred among youth. How deep is this division is still under discussion. It is no secret that the children and grandchildren of those who fought on opposite sides of the barricades in 1944 or 1945, often got married. I know such cases, even in my own family. Secondly, for the young people this is only a story that does not cause strong emotions. Research shows that this so-called "generation y", who lives in a global world, with access to the media, to a large extent is more asocial than its predecessors and therefore more ahistorical.

TheOther 6 | 3,692
6 Nov 2012 #224
wow, good you told us because nobody would have noticed. Take your toys and troll somewhere else.

Always a pleasure to wind up our resident PF fascists... :)
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
6 Nov 2012 #225
So no, VLAD, no matter how you read that table it lists way more than only "dozens of some Ukrainian names who according to author saved Poles."

But those are numbers, not names. But I`m not going to argue about any numbers.I have no doubts that ultranationalism could get horrible at times.Take for example Breivik.Fortunatly currently and for a while there is no Ukrainian terrorists or nationalist serial killers.
boletus 30 | 1,366
6 Nov 2012 #226
But those are numbers, not names. But I`m not going to argue about any numbers.I have no doubts that ultranationalism could get horrible at times.

Again, you clearly do not read our messages with comprehension. In the post #237, which I posted today at 16:38, three posts back, in a translated quote from one of the records, taken from that book, the following Ukrainian helpers are mentioned by name:

- Paraska woman - sheltered one Polish girl for a night
- Maciuczka woman - sheltered another Polish girl for a night
- Mychaiło Gidzun - sheltered one of those girls for a month
- Stepan Stolarczuk - saved a three year girl and brought her up as his own
- anonymous Ukrainian couple - provided food and led three persons to safety
- more anonymous people - carted one or two other Poles to safety

What more do you want? More details? The witnesses knew some Ukrainians by name and surname, some others only by given names, many other names escape their memory. They also knew some of the bandits by name, I am sure, because in many cases they were their neighbours.

And the statistics I have shown before mentions a number of 896 Ukrainian savers, known by name. It means that those are names listed somewhere in that book. If you do not believe me, use the index at the back, pickup a random Ukrainian name from there and see to what record it would take you.
mainframe - | 12
7 Nov 2012 #227
VLAD123 "And didn`t Russian saved Poles from total distruction? For example: they saved them from full scale Tataro-Mongol invasion, they saved them from Swedes (Poland was devastated by Swedes), they saved them from German Nazies. I guess you know that Nizies planned to eliminate 80-85 % of Poles and rest of them either sterilize or send in Siberia?"

The Mongols defeated Russia and occupied Moscow. The Mongol army continued into Poland and were eventually stopped by Polish knights. Ghengis Khan also died and the Mongols settled in the Tartar Mountains - and later fought with the Poles/Lithuanians to defeat the Teutonic Knights. Ghengis Khan said of the Polish troops - you can cut them down like grass in a field - but drop your guard for one minute and the grass will grow around your ankles and strangle you. Sweden devastated much of Poland but the Poles held out in the southern town of Zamosc. The Swedes killed the Polish Princess and took the crown jewels back to Sweden where they still are. No sign of any Russians. Russia waited for Nazis to weaken Poland before they INVADED on the 17th September. NOT helped. NOT saved. But invaded. they executed many on the spot and deported 700,000 to Siberia - including my Grandfather. In the Gulag he watched most of his friends starve to death. Russia ONLY released the Poles because they were stupid enough to deal with Hitler who invaded Russia. Russia denied aerial support for the Wasraw uprising. Waited on the left bank of the Vistula until the Germans slaughtered the Poles in Warsaw. After the war Russia denied Poland freedom to move, talk, print, speak. Most young men were turned into alcoholics, brainwashed, families destroyed, shot, deported. Russia DID NOT rescue Poland from the Nazis. USA supplies 40 MILLION tonnes of equipment to Russia to keep it alive so it could attack Germans. Poland helped allies by giving the Anigma code - fighting battle of Britain (12% kills) fighting all over - including with Red army to take Berlin. Russia did NO FAVOURS to Poland WHATSOEVER. The sooner you realise that the better. Then we can go for a pint.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
7 Nov 2012 #228
The Mongols defeated Russia and occupied Moscow. The Mongol army continued into Poland and were eventually stopped by Polish knights.

Nope.Mongols caused overwhelming defeat to united Polish-German army.They just lacked force to colonized it consumed by ferocious Russian welcome.

Sweden devastated much of Poland but the Poles held out in the southern town of Zamosc. The Swedes killed the Polish Princess and took the crown jewels back to Sweden where they still are. No sign of any Russians.

Sweden had many wars with Poland but ultimately were stoped by Russians from following expancion and colonization of Eastern Europe in Nothern war.
There also was their overwhelming defeat under Poltava by Peter the Great.

Russia waited for Nazis to weaken Poland before they INVADED on the 17th September. NOT helped. NOT saved. But invaded.

They invaded only because 3 million Polish army didn`t want to fight with Hitler.All the Polish commandment including president escaped abroad in the first days of War.Followed by most of army who run into Romania.Well, but Russians at least had moral right to protect Ukrainians and Belorussians from life under Hittler ethinc cleansings?

they executed many on the spot and deported 700,000 to Siberia - including my Grandfather. In the Gulag he watched most of his friends starve to death.

Ultimately they remembered that there should be not only UPA victims, but Stalin`s too.

Russia denied aerial support for the Wasraw uprising. Waited on the left bank of the Vistula until the Germans slaughtered the Poles in Warsaw.

Warsaw uprisal seems to be another controversy.The leaders of ``Polish government in excile`` as well as leader of Armiya Krayowa who organized uprisal called Polish citizens to fight with Stalin and Soviets.And scarried Poles that Russians are going to kill all the Catholic priests and forcebly convert all the Poles into orthodox christians.How would Stalin help to them if they supposed to attack him?

After the war Russia denied Poland freedom to move, talk, print, speak. Most young men were turned into alcoholics, brainwashed, families destroyed, shot, deported.

This is outrageous of course but Russia didn`t even exist yet and USSR was ruled not by ethnical Russians.So what is primary connestion to Russia and Russians? And I`m glad that now Poles have much better fertility rates then during communism and multiply in numbers instead desapear as a nation as it was under communists.And now Polish use drink much less vodka and much healthier.Now they not brainwashed and know their history very well as proves this forum and even believe they defeated Mongols.And their threads are not deleated from forum instantly for beign politically undesirable.And they do not have to go abroad to make some money for living where they often treated like /?%%%?/.
legend 3 | 664
7 Nov 2012 #229
They invaded only because 3 million Polish army didn`t want to fight with Hitler

The Polish army had 1,000,000 soldiers on maximum (only a small fraction of this were deployed and ready in the early days).
So I do not understand this "3 million" you are talking about.
Zibi - | 336
7 Nov 2012 #230
Vlad, I see your Kremlin overseers pay you quite a lot, enough to pollute this forum with the insane statements of yours. You are a despicable, soviet-like convoluted individual.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
7 Nov 2012 #231
The Polish army had 1,000,000 soldiers on maximum

Sorry if I made mistake.But during large wars countries suppose to
call for mobilisation, don`t they? Was it initial army that USSR won
war with?
Zibi - | 336
7 Nov 2012 #232
Was it initial army that USSR won
war with?

You are insane. You do not know your own russian history. Not to mention polish or ukrainian.
jadis
7 Nov 2012 #233
Russia waited for Nazis to weaken Poland before they INVADED on the 17th September. NOT helped. NOT saved. But invaded.

They invaded only because 3 million Polish army didn`t want to fight with Hitler.

There is a line beyond which no poster on respectable forum should go. There is ignorance, and there is a provocation.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
7 Nov 2012 #234
Sorry. If you find any my statement outrageous I would gladly modify it to everyones satisfaction.But rules of forum allows to do it just in first few minuts,maybe they will change it? Still I do not understand what technical difference makes for Poles whether some lands had been captured by Hitler or Stalin.Was Stalin for them any worse than Hitler?
berni23 7 | 379
7 Nov 2012 #235
I definitely need the stuff you are smoking.

The Mongols defeated Russia and occupied Moscow.

consumed by ferocious Russian welcome

"The Mongol Empire invaded Kievan Rus' in the 13th century, destroying numerous cities including Ryazan, Kolomna, Moscow, Vladimir and Kiev.

This campaign was heralded by the Battle of the Kalka River (1223) which resulted in a Mongol victory over forces of several Rus' principalities. Nevertheless, the Mongols retreated. Batu Khan's full-scale invasion of Rus' occurred from 1237 to 1240; the campaign was ended by a Mongol succession crisis. All Russian states had to submit to Mongol rule and became part of the Golden Horde empire; some of it lasted until 1480."

Yeah, you showed them. :D

And I`m glad that now Poles have much better fertility rates then during communism and multiply in numbers instead desapear as a nation as it was under communists.And now Polish use drink much less vodka and much healthier.

This just cracked me up.

Please dont ban him or delete his topics.
jadis
7 Nov 2012 #236
Still I do not understand what technical difference makes for Poles whether some lands had been captured by Hitler or Stalin.Was Stalin for them any worse than Hitler?

Is there no end to your stupidity??? You really have lost your mind. Provided you ever had one.
1jola 14 | 1,879
7 Nov 2012 #237
There is a line beyond which no poster on respectable forum should go. There is ignorance, and there is a provocation.

This "Polish" forum is slander friendly. Perhaps because it is moderated by foreigners who are unprepared to recognize it.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
7 Nov 2012 #238
All Russian states had to submit to Mongol rule and became part of the Golden Horde empire; some of it lasted until 1480

There was almost no Kievan Rus city which would surrender to Mongols without bloody battle.Looses among Tataro-Mongols were huge and their forces utterly exhausted.And Russians were able to recover their strength quite soon.For example they beated Tatars on Kulikovo Field in 1380.After that another raw of bloody battles followed.
Wulkan - | 3,243
7 Nov 2012 #239
I would gladly modify it to everyones satisfaction.But rules of forum allows to do it just in first few minuts,maybe they will change it?

Don't bother that, we enjoy reading your propaganda in it's original, not modified version.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
7 Nov 2012 #240
I do not claim, of course, that Stallin tried willingly to help Poland to liberate them from Nazies.
But what he supposed to do?To proclaim war on Germany just because of Poland? Currently
it is unknown what were planes of Stanlin.Viktor Suvorov in his book ``Ledokol`` (I do not advise
you to read it, it`s boring) claimed that Stallin planned to invade Europe under war on Nazies
exuse.And he just wanted to gain time to prepare for this war.But even if Stalin would do it and
won the war, then you would again claim that he is agressor and tried to impant communism
anywhere including Poland.And that he supposed to lost 20+ millions of people just to liberate
Poland and allow Poles to eat borsch when stupid Russians do all the job and after to remove
all the troops from Poland and allow them to live their decadent capitalist lifes.


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