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Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians?


4 eigner 2 | 831
2 Nov 2012 #121
Stalin didn't control anyone other than the Russians,

you're full of it, man. You already proved, you don't have any idea about economy and you're proving, you don't know history too.
Meathead 5 | 495
2 Nov 2012 #122
Historically Poland has always looked West, that's why they're Roman Catholic and not Eastern Orthodox.

Being introspective doesn't mean that you suffer an inferiority complex.

The border between Eastern and Western Europe is Poland's Eastern Border. Poland has more in common with Brussels. Chopin lived in Vienna and Paris not Moscow.

you're full of it, man. You already proved, you don't have any idea about economy and you're proving, you don't know history too.

Ooh, you're blowing my cover. Now everyone will think I don't know what I'm talking about. My bad, Stalin died in '53, not '48. But Russia ruled over the Eastern Bloc w/communism which was considered a viable alternative to capitalism. The Marshall Plan was designed to combat the spread of communism. Europe was on it's back after WWII and they all had very large communist political parties.

Also below is a link to an article from a Romney supporter (economist). At the end of the article his concern is the trade imbalance not the deficit.

finance.yahoo/blogs/the-exchange/expect-unemployment-rise-final-pre-election-jobs-report-230535426.html
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
2 Nov 2012 #123
Stalin didn't control anyone other than the Russians, he died in 1948.

Needs to take history lessons.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
2 Nov 2012 #125
Historically Poland has always looked West, that's why they're Roman Catholic and not Eastern Orthodox.

An interesting question.Separation of One Christian church which was officialy rulled by Roman Popes to which originally beloned both Poles and Russians happened step by step in 11-th century.The main atogonists were Rome and Constantinopole.Russia didn`t take either side for a some periode of time.Ultimately it went to Constantinopole camp.But could you imagine Russian pop (priest) in remote village who speaks Latin?Why would they need it?

The threat is dedicated to Poles, Russians,Ukrainians.
All about Romney and Marchall get out.
Meathead 5 | 495
2 Nov 2012 #126
Vlad all the church records in Poland are in Latin. Why? Because Poland looks West, It's an historical fact.

I have a question for you and I'm asking (this is not a trick question). You believe that Polish and Russian is related, though some others on this forum don't think so but for the sake of argument we'll agree with your premise. Okay, historically speaking what exchange of ideas have existed between Russia and Poland?
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
2 Nov 2012 #127
To Meathead:
I do not answer to people who do not know history and intudes in threads they do not belong to.
Meathead 5 | 495
2 Nov 2012 #128
Vlad, there weren't any exchange of ideas.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
2 Nov 2012 #129
I do not honesly, care...

And why shoud Poles care about Latin? This is exinct language. And also majority of Nothern Europeans are Protestants
and not a Catholics. Would you claim Poland should have ties with Latin America? Typical Americans were WASP long ago...
Warszawette - | 128
2 Nov 2012 #130
TheOther: don't talk any nonsense! The LePen family have no chance to be elected in France ;) and contrary to what you claim, I can say over 90% of French citizens are "of catholic origin" (most of them now atheists).

As to the LePen, they are against ALL immigrants, including those from ....Poland, against UE and against capitalism. Any way, since they'll never be elected, they may scream whatever they want.

Excuse-me for correcting your nonsense but I'm French and I believe I know France better than you do!

Furthermore France is a LAY country (has been since 1905 - the first country on earth to become so) so there is a complete separation of State and religious matters - religion (although most French of ALL creeds are either atheists or non practising, including Muslims, who most often do NOT practise) and therefore NO religion in schools (unless they are parochial ;)) and NO religious reference in public life (= illegal) so please don't make up stories.

;)

Unbelievable the crap to be read in this forum! May people stick to what they know.
TheOther 6 | 3,692
2 Nov 2012 #131
contrary to what you claim, I can say over 90% of French citizens are "of catholic origin"

What did I claim? I made no reference whatsoever to religion.

The LePen family have no chance to be elected in France

Where did I say they will be elected? What I said is that Le Pen is popular in southern France. You want to deny that?

I'd suggest that you learn some English before you participate in a thread and attack people. :)
Dominika99 1 | 93
2 Nov 2012 #132
Historically Poland has always looked West, that's why they're Roman Catholic and not Eastern Orthodox.

Russia has also looked West at certain times in her history. It's not all about religion.

It's the language, the shared history, culture. It's the fact that Warsaw looks a lot more like Moscow than like Brussels, and the fact Poles are more similar to Russians in character.

Being introspective doesn't mean that you suffer an inferiority complex.

No, it's not introspection. It's the resentment we still have because Russia is more powerful than us and has waged wars and occupied us, coupled with the mistaken notion that they consider us a threat to them.

Chopin lived in Vienna and Paris not Moscow.

So? Tchaikovsky (whose father had Polish and Ukrainian blood) lived in Lake Geneva, Rachmaninov lived in New York.
Wulkan - | 3,243
2 Nov 2012 #133
Poles are more similar to Russians in character.

elaborate that
Dominika99 1 | 93
2 Nov 2012 #134
Why should I? You're Polish, and probably convinced you've got nothing in common with Russia, so you'll just pick at anything I say and refuse to believe it. Waste of my time.
Wulkan - | 3,243
2 Nov 2012 #135
and probably convinced you've got nothing in common with Russia

No, I totally don't, we are slavic nations and have similarities. I just wanted to know what you meant by that
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
2 Nov 2012 #136
If he wants Polish people to develop a sympathy for the Russians leaders, it aint gonna happen.

If Poland have some problem with Russian leaders let`s them invent reasons to apply in European
court against of Putin or Russian oligarchs or Mikhail Gorbochov (if they need alive Soviet leader)
and not set tme meaningless lawsuits agains ``all of Russia`` for some things that happened 73 years ago in already non-existant
country. Sorry, but douter of Josef Stalin (with her millions) lived in U.K. Son of Nikita Kruschev in U.S.,
Mickail Gorbochov with his family in Germany and many other Western countries.All Russian oligarkhs have
property in Western countries.And many other high-ranked former Soviet leaders have luxury lifestile there.
Nobody bothers them with any lawsuits of investigations.And local govornments make all the security mesures that not even a single hair would fall from their head.And that local ``cattle`` would not even dare to bother them.Instad they involve very old, traumatized people whom they tell they will get trillions dollars from Russia.After obvous fail of it, soccer fans start to run on the streets, smash woman, children, men, whoever they see before them. Do not it look stupid to you?

I hope that such people (who accordin to wikipedia did exact evaluation of of Ukrainian I-t Army victim numbers) as Niall Ferguson, Rossolinski-Liebe and John P. Himka are Poles.

To sofijufka: I watched Zalizn Sotnia a bit. I agee that movie is stupid.But it doesn`t even look serious to me.There is rather some black humor elements.But, do not you think that Polish and Ukrainian governments should make mutual agreement about avoiding mentions of each other atrocities? Woudn`t it be a best solution at present stage of relations?
Dominika99 1 | 93
2 Nov 2012 #137
No, I totally don't, we are slavic nations and have similarities. I just wanted to know what you meant by that

It's what's commonly called the "Slavic soul" that I think all of us in these parts share. On the downside, it's negativity and pessimism, and the dark streak we have when it comes to suffering and making others suffer that Dostoyevsky described so well. Fatalism, too.

On the upside, we're passionate, and can be moved easily, sentimental, patriotic and more conservative and family-oriented.
TheOther 6 | 3,692
2 Nov 2012 #138
Stalin didn't control anyone other than the Russians

Hm, I thought it was clear that I used Stalin as a synonym for 'USSR'. Obviously not, so let's try again:

I disagree. The USSR was able to do just that for a very long time.

I would answer your other points as well, but I'm afraid we are already way off topic and I hate to see a lengthy reply hitting the bin. PM me if you would like to continue.
sofijufka 2 | 191
2 Nov 2012 #139
But, do not you think that Polish and Ukrainian governments should make mutual agreement about avoiding mentions of each other atrocities? Woudn`t it be a best solution at present stage of relations?

I don't think it's possible.... As long as Ukrainians would extol UPA and OUN only as a sainted heroes, fighting only with Red Army, and keep mute about ethnic cleansing of Poles in Volhynia and Galicia... I do understand, that they see these organizations as patriotic partisan army, but...
1jola 14 | 1,879
2 Nov 2012 #140
but...

Let me finish it for you.. Any military formation that at best can claim 8,000 combat kills (as UPA does), but has blood of civilians on their hands of more than ten times that amount, can not even be call a combat unit. It's a death squad and in Europe there is no room for glorifying death squads. UPA was no different than the Einsatzgruppen.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
2 Nov 2012 #141
I don't think it's possible.... As long as Ukrainians would extol UPA and OUN only as a sainted heroes, fighting only with Red Army, and keep mute about ethnic cleansing of Poles in Volhynia and Galicia... I do understand, that they see these organizations as patriotic partisan army, but...

You do not think it`s possible or you do not want it happen?From your post I assume that you do not want
.What is concerning to glorification of UPA, who exactly glorify them? I`m quite sure that vast majority of Ukrainian population are against of it. (though there is a promlem that many people in Ukraine do not know who are UPA at all).This is why Polish government could find language with them and political parties who represent them. I think that at least both govenments could outlaw mention of

mutual

atrocities in books,cinema, newspapers and radio.If some mentally concerned people want to do it they still have Internet forums where their statements could be at least diputed. I do not understand how mentally normal person could be very concerned with something that was commited 70 years ago by insignificant, mentally troubled part of entire population and believe that those Nazi collaborators represented all Ukrainians.

As long as Ukrainians would extol UPA and OUN only as a sainted heroes, fighting only with Red Army, and keep mute about ethnic cleansing of Poles in Volhynia and Galicia...

If you talk about ``ethnical cleansing`` then could you give exact definition of ethisity? The events happened in Westernmost part of Ukraine which at least 500 years was under rule of Poles.There was very many blood intermixing for that time and I woudn`t even wonder if blood of those Ukrainians was mostly Polish.This if we could talk about intermixing at all because Poles and ``Ruthenians`` descended from common root in historically perceivable times.What genetic expertise could show certain difference between Pole and Ukrainian?There was not even officially word ``Ukraine`` few hundreds years ago. Many, if not most of those Ukrainans from Galitsia and Volyn regions were able more or less speak Polish and very many were Catholics.

For example soldiers of division SS ``Galichina`` were protected by Vatican from surrendering them to USSR as a ``good Catholics``.
And if inhabitants Polish state territory were not able to find common language why do you sure that it is something between differnt races of people (at least from objective point of view).Do you believe that Ukrainians are genetically predipositioned to kill Poles?Or they are inferior?If not then what is a sense in all those talks?
1jola 14 | 1,879
3 Nov 2012 #142
Last time I heard your PM promised to learn Ukrainian. Has he done that as far as you know?

I 've read recently that FSB has free rein in Ukraine to kidnap people and it's hard to tell who is FSB or SBU. Again a republic?
Meathead 5 | 495
3 Nov 2012 #143
So? Tchaikovsky (whose father had Polish and Ukrainian blood) lived in Lake Geneva, Rachmaninov lived in New York.

Vlad and you, premise that there is some sort of cultural relationship between Russia and Poland. Some people on this thread are saying no that isn't the case with the languages. Culturally speaking I disagree also. Poland was heavily involved with Germany, Italy and France in the intellectual movement in the middle ages. Here's a bit from Wikipedia and they're saying what I'm saying:

/wiki/Western_Slavs

Culturally, West Slavs developed along the lines of other Western European nations due to affiliation with the Roman Empire and Western Christianity.[2] Thus, they experienced a cultural split with the other Slavic groups: while the East Slavs and most South Slavs converted to Orthodox Christianity, thus being culturally influenced by the Byzantine Empire, the West Slavs along with the westernmost South Slavs (Slovenes and Croats) converted to Roman Catholicism, thus coming under the cultural influence of the Latin Church. (Rarely, the term "West Slavs" includes these Catholic South Slavs.)

Poland hasn't had a relationship with Russia because until Catherine the Great, Russia was a cultural backwater. So Poland has more in common with (I'll say France) than with Russia. Poland is a Western Country, it's the West.

Here's more: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_philosophy
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
3 Nov 2012 #144
Poland was heavily involved with Germany, Italy and France in the intellectual movement in the middle ages.

That`s good. And what? Did I imply that Poland suppose to ban comunication with its Western neigbours or any other countries?
Or stop any future exchange of ideas?In times of Internet there is no borders for ideas exchange unles it is not banned. The question is how Slavic countries could fruitfully cooperate with each other. And help to develop each other. And also eliminate unnecessary conflicts.This is only my concern.

Dominika99:
I think it's boring because Poland is trying too hard to be European, or a part of the EU, and they forget that they're Slavs, not Protestants.

Actually are you Pole as you claimed before? I need to inform you that overheming majority of Poles are Catholics, not Protestants...
Meathead 5 | 495
3 Nov 2012 #145
The point I was trying to make is that you are equating Hitler, Franco and Stalin. They are very different dictators representing different political and social systems. Just because Stalin (USSR) was able to control the Eastern Bloc w/communism doesn't mean that Hitler would have been able to control Western Europe w/Nazism.

Americans are taught about WWII through Armies marching through Europe, we're rarely told the story of the civilians during those times. France and England lost a generation during WWI, the last thing that they wanted was WWII. The populations supported peace w/Germany, they supported Chamberlain. France and England were over run at Dunkirk because they weren't prepared, because they didn't want a war. When Germany over took France they brutalized the French civilians, like they brutalized everywhere they went. Once the French got the equipment and material to fight back, they fought back. Germany would never have been able to keep Western Europe together for any length of time. Too much opposition.
sofijufka 2 | 191
3 Nov 2012 #146
You do not think it`s possible or you do not want it happen?From your post I assume that you do not want

You are wrong - totally. Sorry - today I'm in no state to discuss anything, I have terrible cold and a headache. A raincheck, OK?
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
3 Nov 2012 #147
Hey, Sofijufka! I`m really sorry and appologise if I understood you in wrong way.Please do not take it seriously. Pardon!
It is just you expression that agreement about permanent mutual cease-fire between Poles and Ukrainians is impossible.Why should it have been impossible for a reasonable people?And sorry I didn`t understood why somebody

do not

suppose to be mute about ethnical cleansing. Do some trials suppose to be set? Do some reparations suppose to follow? Do some hystorical lessons supposed to be learned that had not been learned by all reasonable Ukrainians and Poles? Does it imply that Ukrainians are genetically inclined to kill Poles and should be fenced from them with the grates or discriminated? Or that those event have some chances to reoccur in any foreseable future? If your answer is no for all of those questions, then what is any sense in all those talks?It`s good to undersand history for a people, but try to understand Ukrainian mentality.For majority of them something that happened 70 years ago is quite a while a wile ago and they will not become obssessed with it.Even those who will take it in their heads may not believe it or try to dispute it.People are inclined to idealize past of their countries. But shouldn`t Polish government be clever and at least prohibit mention of any pictureque attrocities? And why Ukrainians should feel themself guilty so much if those attrocities were mutual, exact numbers are unknown, no any trial have been held and there is many black spots?Do not you see that all this could only damage relations?

. In Wołyń (Wolhynia) the order was simple: KILL THEM. In Galicia the standing order was TO SCARE THEM first and if that would not work then KILL THEM.

As I know approximately 2 millions of Poles lived in Western Ukraine back then. Wasn`t it a bit suicidal idea to wage full scale war against them? Do UPA leader hoped to kill or scarry all of them?And they didn`t even expect that Poles may organize and fight back?What exactly weapon UPA soldiers had and where did they take it as well as ammunition?And why 2 millions of Poles didn`t orgasnize to fight back after first few thousands of Poles have been killed? Did they allowed to massacre them like a sheeps?

Could not they get the same weapon as UPA soldiers did? From what I could conclude that UPA was mentally sick.
Dominika99 1 | 93
3 Nov 2012 #148
Actually are you Pole as you claimed before? I need to inform you that overheming majority of Poles are Catholics, not Protestants...

I was alluding to Germany with the Protestant comment.
OP Vlad123 7 | 204
3 Nov 2012 #149
Thank you! I didn`t understand you correctly. But I`m still curios to know
why exacly to be Catholic is more natural for a Slavs than to be a Protestant?
Are some confessions are more ``natural`` for a Slavs than other?
Dominika99 1 | 93
3 Nov 2012 #150
Poland hasn't had a relationship with Russia because until Catherine the Great, Russia was a cultural backwater.

Every nation on this earth has had a relationship with Russian culture, to a greater or lesser extent.

Russian literature, for example, is genius and incomparable to any other literary tradition this earth has seen. I'm reading a collection of essays now by a Turkish writer in which he talks about growing up in Istanbul and reading Dostoyevsky and Gogol, and how those writers changed his life. It is impossible for a great writer NOT to be influenced by Russian writers, period.

How you can say there was no cultural exchange between Poland and Russia... is beyond me.

Imagine a beautiful woman wearing perfume walking through a room full of men. Not all the men will approach her, or even talk to her - maybe some will be afraid, because she's broken some hearts. But they will all smell her scent and the fragrance will linger in the room long after she's gone. The woman in this metaphor is Russia... ;)

So Poland has more in common with (I'll say France) than with Russia. Poland is a Western Country, it's the West.

Poland is actually central Europe, which doesn't include France but includes Slovakia and Slovenia. And if you want to talk geography, then you could also consider Turkey as an EU candidate. Does that mean Poland has more in common with Istanbul than St. Petersburg?

France? I've been to Paris and I've been to Moscow. In one of those cities, I could understand much of what was being said if the person spoke slowly. I could also eat potatoes with dill and pickles, and drink vodka if I wanted, and be with the people who (according to science) are the same as me down to genetics. I'll give you a clue, that city wasn't Paris.


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