Polish relation about Russians, Ukrainians?

I wonder why Ukrainians perfectly survive without making movies in which they would downgrade other European nationalities
and especially Poles? I cannot remember such movie. I`m not a small boy and could understand which propagandist or political
massage some movie includes.If you or somebody didn`t remark it, I don`t mind.


Are boodthirsty Polish magnates any better than communists?And if yes, for whom exactly?

Please! The atom bomb was ready in August 1945 and the Americans would have used it against Germany if necessary. I agree it was the Soviets that did most of the fighting, but even if the Nazis had made it to Moscow and even if the Allies hadn't landed in Normandy the Americans would have had the technology to bomb Germany into obilivion in August 1945!

Again, if the fate of the world had been at stake it was technically possible for the Americans to construct a plane with extra fuel tanks to fly to Germany and back. An atom bomb is easy to transport.

Taras Bulba [2009]? Zalizna sotnia? [2004]

The is also questions: 1)How many atomic bombs would be able to produce U.S. in a given years (1945-1947)? 2) How many bombs would they have to drop on Germany to enforce them surrender? 3) What if Hitler would take strategy of scattering all German popuation and entire German army accross ocupided territories? For example they could enforce local non-german population supply Germans who would live in bunker underground with all provisions necessary and army regiments will enforce non-germans to build bunkers for Germans and be obeident?Then whichever city Americans whould bomb they would hurt non-German population mostly...


Taras Bulba is not a Ukrainian movie.It is in Russian and made in Russia.But I didn`t remark that Poles would be really downgraded there.Somewhat cruel,yes.They torture captured cossack warriers.But many would do the same.But at least Poles are not represented in this movie as drunk cattle, there is no Polish witch-lesbians and no Polish phyco-idiots like ``Bogun``.

Though there is rather unnecessary subplot about mutual sexual relations between Ukrainian cossack and Polish woman.I guess this is what you perceived as a personal abuse.But had been this movie ever advertised in Poland or translated in Polish? I wonder if it`s true...

I did not watch Zalizna sotnia [2004] yet.Probably will do it in couple of days.This movie seems to be a low buget one.Did you see it in Polish?And how Poles have been downgraded there?

Just imagine if every German - soldier or civilian - would have had to fear that out of blue, without forewarning, complete cities would be destroyed in just a second. The moral impact would have been devastating! So I guess after the third atom bomb the war in Europe would have been over.


From 1945 to 1947? Enough to end the war once and forever!


Scattering every German around the territories of occupied Europe? German armies that are stationed in nuclear fall-out shelter bunkers waiting for the nuclear radiation to disappear and then continue fighting? Sorry, but this is completely absurd. You should watch Stanley Kubrick's motion picture "Dr. Strangelove or: How I Learned to Stop Worrying and Love the Bomb" that ridicules this kind of thinking.

Let alone the fact that every nation that was enslaved by Nazi Germany would have regained one's strength rapidly, after the news had reached them that the Americans developed a new weapon that could transform Nazi Germany's cities into dust in just an instant, and this news would have spreaded even to the remoted outposts of occupied Europe very fast and would have sparked resistance against Nazi oppressors.

1. Enough.
2. Two. Once Berlin was initially nuked and followed up with a devastating bombing of a selected industrial area (the Ruhr, for instance) - Hitler would either surrender or get killed.

3. That strategy wouldn't work because Hitler wouldn't have expected the first couple of bombs - any attempt to introduce such a strategy would be met with a third and fourth bomb (for instance, Breslau and Dresden) - which would guarantee that the German people would demand the end - now.

No doubt, but please remember that we were talking about a hypothetical different outcome of the war against the USSR. If Nazi Germany would have won against the Russians, it would have been relatively early in the 1940's; probably summer 1942. A victory would have set free millions of battle hardened troops which would have then been available for a major attack against the UK. The occupied hinterland of the USSR would have provided a safe haven for weapon, food and fuel production, leaving the allies without many of their targets - except for the civilians in the west European cities (and we all know what the Americans and Brits did).

Under these circumstances, I'm convinced that Britain wouldn't have stood a chance on the long run to avoid a German invasion or at least a truce. Which in turn would have robbed the Americans of their bases for an attack on Germany.


It wasn't, otherwise they would've done it much earlier in the war. Not only to attack Germany, but to attack their main enemy Japan. The A-bomb on the other hand wasn't available until 1945; so too late if Germany and Britain would have made a truce or even peace with each other. BTW: the "heroic fight for freedom and democracy", which is always used as an argument by the Americans and Brits for their participation in WW2, is a propaganda lie in my eyes. Britain (and France) just wanted to get rid of a European competitor, and when they failed they were once again crying for the help of their colonies to bail them out.

In conclusion: if the Germans would have won against the Russians, Poland and most other countries in the east including large tracts of land in Russia would be German now.

That's assuming that the Nazis could keep control of such a vast area - my feelings are that we would have seen incredible civil disobedience - to the point when almost every single German wouldn't be aware of just who was after them. They would struggle with administrating such a vast area - and if Russia really was on the verge of collapse, we would have seen desperate moves from

Bear in mind that the UK would have had two years at that point to arm itself to the teeth - which would have meant incredible air and sea defences. Germany would have had to consolidate their gains, and in such a scenario, it's likely that Roosevelt would throw even more resources at the Manhattan Project to get a result faster. And again - all it would take would be four cities ruined by nuclear bombs (no need to hit precisely, unlike in Dresden) to cause utter carnage among civilians.


All they would need would be one base closer to Germany that they had - even a base set up by partisans somewhere for a few hours would be enough, as would sending the pilots on a suicide mission knowing that they won't be able to return to base due to lack of fuel.

All the end games see Nazi defeat because of the bomb - especially if the Nazis started killing Slavs.

I think that everithing depended, of course, on how many time Hitler would be able to gain.I do not see a prove that Americans would be able to print A-bombs in 1945-1947 like on a printer.If it would take a couple of month to make a single or two bombs Hitler would have had a chance.Then he would station medium size regiments in every France or Polish city and town and enforce local people work on military factories.And civilian Germans would be transfered in underground cities.For example in Paris would live five millions of French and two millions of Germans (or they could just mix them).If Americans would drop a bomb could you imagine rumors worldwide about evil Americans who murdered few millions of inocent French insted of just making peace treaty with Hitler?And also once Americans would drop a bomb it would be clear that it will take quite short time before they would be able to recreate American acheivment.Because Nazies did not pay due attention to nuclear program because they did not believe A-bomb is likely to be created at all.

And how you explain that if Americans would be able to scarry Hitler with A-bomb why didn`t they scarry Stalin with the same thing and didn`t enforce him to remove Soviet troops from Eastern Europe?

Forgot to say: what you call "fate of the world" was essentially the fate of the (already crumbling) British and French empires plus the economic position of the US in the world. Remember, Hitler didn't declare war on Britain and France; it was the other way around... :)


The Nazis made one fatal mistake (two, if you count the attack on the USSR itself): instead of slaughtering the people, they should have presented themselves as the liberators from the Stalin regime and gain the support of the population. The war in the east would've been over in no time.

If my uncle had no penis it would have been my aunt. I confess I like those "what would have happened if..." scenarios a lot, but it is fruitless to spend too much time on that.

I highly doubt that the Nazis would have been able to suppress the European continent for longer than a couple of years because Germany is too small and there are not enough Germans to forcefully subdue all of Europe!

More imporant is the fact that the Nazis had nothing to offer to Non-Germans except the life of a servant for the "Nordic master race". Do you really think such a system could prevail for a long period of time?

The war was already lost for Germany from that moment on when the Schleswig-Holstein started to shoot at the Polish army on the Westerplatte!
The only reason why it took six years to fight Germany down was that nobody of Nazi Germany's opponents thought the Nazis would fight the war with such extreme brutality and ruthlessness. Secondly Nazi Germany leadership was willing to sacrifice Germany itself for their war aims. The Nazis only had one goal: complete victory or complete annihilation.

That's what this whole thread is about... :)


Inconvenient truth: they had plenty of willing helpers in Europe.

Again: watch Stanley Kubrick's Dr. Strangelove. You will like it!

Because Roosevelt and Truman were stupid enough to trust Stalin after Germany was defeated in 1945.

The Americans would have had the chance to destroy the Soviet Empire in the years from 1945 to 1949. Why didn't they do it? I think the reason is they did not do it because America was a democracy and there was no majority in the American public opinion to kill millions of innocent Russians.

WWII was a war in progress and the longer a war is fought the more brutalized people get. The Americans knew that probably hundred of thousands of American soldiers and millions of Japanese people would have to die if the American army had tried to invade the Japanese islands the conventional way. So Roosevelt hoped the destruction of two medium sized Japanese cities would "convince" the Japanese government to end this war that was lost to Japan anyway. And it worked! The same would have been true for Nazi Germany.

But, we all agree it is extremely inhumane to destroy cities full with hundred thousands of civilians with atom bombs. In my opinion a decision like this can only be made when a war is going on already. Which American president would have taken the moral implications of being responsible for the murdering so many of Russian civilians in let's say: Leningrad, Moscow, Gorki (Nizhny Novgorod) or Smolensk in order to drive Soviet troups out of Central and Eastern Europe?

That's a rather romantic view of the good ol' USA...

They didn't attack because it would have cost too much money. They didn't attack because hundreds of thousands of additional fallen soldiers would have destroyed any chance for Truman's reelection and/ or would have eliminated the control of the Republican party over both houses. They didn't attack because the vast majority of Americans didn't (and still doesn't) care what's going on outside their country.


Sorry, I meant "would have eliminated the chance to regain control over both houses from the Republicans."

Who knows? At least such cases have already been in History. For example - Mongol Empire.


I do not want to watch every movie, could you explain it
yourself? I do not see what would prevent Germans just mix their population with French,Poles and Czechs everywere - in cities on factories etc. and use them just as alive shield? So every German would be surrounded by one French and one Pole or Czech. Would Amreicans bomb all at ones? I guess nobody would care about Russian or Ukrainian ``cattle``, but Catholic nations is a different thing.


And do not forget that woman who send Suvorov to suppress Polish uprising was German princess
Sophie Auguste Friederike von Anhalt-Zerbst-Dornburg (later known as Catherine the II).
And that Prussia and Austria also took part in the fight agains Kostyushko.But I guess you do not have any
claims to them?

True. But what do you think? How many of them were common opportunists and how many were really convinced about Nazi ideology? In fact many of those "helpers" were the first ones to attack innocent German civilians when the fortunes of war left Nazi Germany because they needed to prove to their countrymen they always have been on the "right side". Even in "purely Germanic" countries like Norway, Denmark, the Netherlands, Flanders and Luxembourg the Nazis never were capable to attract the considerable parts of the population.


Of course you are right here, too.
I justed wanted to stress that in dictatorships like Soviet Russia and Nazi Germany the head of state (Stalin and Hitler) alone could decide to wage an aggressive war with atom bombs while in democratic states the head of government needs to ask other institutions before making such a decision.

In all history of mankind you will never find two democratic states that went to war with one another!


Because a state that is at war with almost the rest of the world needs clear structures, like a functioning state and a loyal population that can live their daily routines in order to stay operative. How this would have been possible if you move several hundred millions of people from their homes to foreign and probably hostile environments? And think about the logistics. How would you bring food to all those people? How many soldiers you would need in order to "protect" German civilians and keep in check the "others"? Who would construct all the weapons for the Nazis?

Don't you think every Pole, Frenchman, Czech, Dutch or Skandinavian wouldn't have known that Nazi Germany would have reached the end of the line when they had to evacuate all of their cities in order to hide in foreign cities. They were in the majority and there would have been many chances for an uprising.

Besides that Nazi Germany was a deeply centralized state. You only needed to destroy a couple of hubs like Berlin, Frankfurt, Munich and the information transfer inside Nazi Germany would have been severly inhibited.

Think about your plan again. It cannot work in reality.

I have no imagination about their motives and never been close to Ukrainian ultranationalist movement.They represent only small minority of Ukrainian population. Those events of 1941-1943 have been poorly covered in USSR or Ukrainian history books or mass media.And I feel there is lot of contoversy. In Ukraine there still disputes if UPA targeted certain ethnicities or not. In the last 70 years UPA and similar organisations positioned themself as anti-Soviet and anti-Russian.And their relation to Poles ranges from neutral to positive.I do not know what may trigger their actions toward Poles.Do you know that? As I know in 1939 Western Ukraine was included in USSR and all the land was presumably taken from Polish landlords and converted in collective farms.So there should be no great material difference between Poles and Ukrainians.What happened after German invasion?Did Germans intended to return land to Polish landlords or valued Poles of Ukrainians? Or this is they who secretly gave orders to massacre Poles? Two main leaders of UPA - Stepan Bandera and Roman Shukhevych were Nazi colaborators.Shukhevych officially took position of captain in German Army. It is interesting that after all massacres they allegedly commited neither Poles or Jews hunted them and both of them (according to modern official version) died from hands of Soviet KGB. Bandera had been killed in Germany.Well, if Stalin could be credited for Russian, maybe they could be credited for...Germans?


What unarmed people would be able to do agains of tanks and millions of soldiers?Impossible.All higher commandment including Hitler already had bunkers.
And how French and Poles would be able to know that Americans have A-bomb?Neither German press or radio would inform them.
And principally Nazies may not even resttle population.They would just inform Americans that for every one dead Geman they will kill five French or others.

As a disclaimer, I was born in Poland but I grew up abroad so I wasn't influenced so much in my life by Polish culture... My father is liberal and tolerant towards both Russians and Ukrainians, but my mother can have some stereotypical views especially when it comes to Ukrainians.

In general I think Polish people are becoming more tolerant, but some others (especially the older generation) can still resent Russians and Ukrainians.

As for me, my best friend is from Donetsk. She understands me like very few people can, and I consider her one of the best friends I've had in my life. It drives me nuts when my mother sometimes comments that I should be "careful" about her, or when I hear her stories about how badly she's treated by other Polish people (who look down on her because they assume she's poor or doesn't deserve respect.)

I don't know many Russians, but I love Russian culture. I wanted to study Russian literature - Dostoyevsky is my favourite writer - but I didn't know Russian fluently so I studied English literature instead.

I think Poles have a lot more in common with Russian culture than they do with other countries that are in the EU, and they should be proud to be Slavs and proud of their heritage. There is still too much resentment left over from World War II, and Polish people don't realise how badly many Russians suffered under Communism, too.

Please, even Germans, like my grandparents, listened to BBC on a regular basis, although Nazi authorites had draconic punishments for doing that, because they knew from Nazi German news they would only receive propaganda. So my grandfather knew the Americans were very close to the village were they lived and not at the Rhine front how Nazi radio propaganda tried to tell them.

And yet you come here and teach us your state propaganda.


Simple. This was the ethnic cleansing ordered by one faction of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists (OUN) to prepare the land for the future Free Ukraine. In Wołyń (Wolhynia) the order was simple: KILL THEM. In Galicia the standing order was TO SCARE THEM first and if that would not work then KILL THEM.

Look, part of my family came from Kresy but I have nothing against Ukrainians, even though some of my family terribly suffered through some of them. But past is past and I am glad that Ukrainians have their independence at last, and possibly true democracy in the future. But history is history and one cannot built relationships among peoples based on lies. I have seen many books written by both sides, exaggerating the losses and tragedies, or white washing the tragic events. In Toronto, where I live, the local bookstores perpetuate the hatred ad infinitum since there are big Ukrainian and Polish communities here. I usually stay away from those propaganda books, and I hope most Poles and Ukrainians do the same. Personally, I have not observed any antipathy or aversion among the groups. In contrary, many Ukrainians gain employment through Polish bosses or vice versa.

So I found it interesting to see a quite balanced book "Kresowa Księga Sprawiedliwych 1939-1945" about Ukrainians saving Poles subjected to extermination by OUN and UPA. This is a compilation from records (including IPN) by Romuald Niedzielko. I am attaching a summary from his book showing documented murders of Poles across several Voivodships, as well as actions of some Ukrainians attempting to save some of their Polish neighbours and often suffering because of it.

Headers

- VOI Voivodship
- PLC # Places
- KIL # Poles Killed
- ACT # Acts of Ukrainian help
- SAV # Poles saved by Ukrainians
- HUT # Ukrainian helpers total
- HUN # Ukrainian helpers known by name
- HUM # Ukrainian helpers murdered by UPA for helping Poles

Statistics of help given by Ukrainians to Poles

- [(VOI Wolyń ) (PLC 255) (KIL 11,006) (ACT 493) (SAV 1806) (HUT 794) (HUN 530) (HUM 189)]
- [(VOI Polesie) (PLC 3) (KIL 200) (ACT 5) (SAV 8) (HUT 4) (HUN 2) (HUM 0)]
- [(VOI Tarnopol) (PLC 144) (KIL 6751) (ACT 245) (SAV 417) (HUT 336) (HUN 209) (HUM 120)]
- [(VOI Lwów) (PLC 34) (KIL 357) (ACT 56) (SAV 116) (HUT 67) (HUN 55) (HUM 18)]
- [(VOI Stanisławów) (PLC 39) (KIL 270) (ACT 55) (SAV 95) (HUT 85) (HUN 57) (HUM 29)]
- [(VOI Rzeszów) (PLC 18) (KIL 90) (ACT 19) (SAV 23) ((HUT 42) (HUN 33) (HUM 24)]
- [(VOI Lublin) (PLC 9) (KIL 155) (ACT 9) (SAV 62) (HUT 13) (HUN 10) (HUM 4)]
- [(TOTAL) (PLC 502) (KIL 18,829) (ACT 882) (SAV 2527) (HUT 1341) (HUN 896) (HUM 384)]

The actual numbers are estimated as high as ten times the documented numbers in that book. The book is accessible from here:

nawolyniu.pl/sprawiedliwi/sprawiedliwi.pdf

A whole 1000% better!

Leaders of UPA bilieved in Free Ukraine and served in Nazi army? And were they so stupid not to realize that whoever would win those war (either Hitler or Stalin) there can`t be Free Ukraine? And how Geman Nazies tolerated operation of entire army of Ukrainians in thier rears?Why would not have they disarm them or sent some work to do? And did they massacre only Poles?

And why exacly leaders of UPA cannot envision peaceful co-existance between Poles and Ukrainians in Free Ukraine?And why they would they have to kill Poles if Poles would likely themself move to Poland in search of better life conditions?There many questions to me.I do not teach here Ukrainian propaganda, I do not even have idea what Ukrainan propagada tells.I live outside of Ukraine.You said you saw lots of books in Polish bookstores about Ukrainian massacres.But in the same time there seem to be 2 millions of ethnical Poles who were deliberatly killed by German Nazies.Is there at least the same amount of books about those events in Polish bookstores?


I whish to know who exatly of your family members and how exactly suffered from Ukrainians?
Could you tell entire story?


I would be grad to know what are exacly those stereotypes? (I`m not going to abuse on your mother.)

Hey, you are reverting back to the old Soviet ways of laying all WWII crimes on Germany's doorstep!

I know old habits die hard, but you should have the gratidute to acknowledge that Soviet Russia and Ukrainian nationalists, too, were responsible for many crimes against humanity.

They did. Exactly, as you said.
Read this, version nr 1:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Ukrainian_Independence,_1941
Version nr 2 (my translation from a written source):


Same as here, in both Polish and Ukrainian:
dictionnaire.sensagent.com/akt+odnowienia+pa%C5%84stwa+ukrai%C5%84skiego/pl-pl

Another version of this proclamation, to which Ukrainians admit more willingly, proclaims the capitol to be in Kiev and creation of the national-revolutionary arm forces, which will fight for the Sovereign Councliar Ukrainian State. The fragment about Hitler and its heroic German Army is no longer there, and it is directly signed by Jarosław Stec'ko. It ends as follows:

"Long live the Sovereign Counciliar Ukrainian State! Long live the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalist! Long live the Leader of the Organization of Ukrainian Nationalists, Stepan Bandera!

The City of Lion, June 30, 1941, 2000 hours.
Jaroslav Stec'ko. President of the National Assembly.

However, Stec'ko's fait accompli policy against Hitler has failed. The humilation was horrible. Not only the hope for the Sovereign Councliar Ukrainian State was squashed, but also the lands where it supposed to be created have become divided, treating the Eastern Galicia, as in during the Austrian times, as lands taken from Poland. What's worse the capital of this lieutenancy, run by the governer Hans Frank, has been set in Krakow - not in Lviv, as in the times of Franz-Josef. It was hard on Ukrainians. The border on the San river was also abandoned. All notices were printed in three languages.


I do not care to go into details of my private affairs. I gave you the PUBLIC source documenting atrocities committed in 502 villages and towns. Village by village. Read just the first few pages. You might find them eye opening.

Vlad I'm afraid I have to disappoint you. Your fine getures you make here are somewhat pointless. You look like a surgeon who's sewing on a finger. By the time you wiil be done with just a single one your interlocutors will have cut a dozen off. The guys you're trying to address your noble impulse to are most likely over their 20s hence they are hard to learn, adopt other ideas which are beyond the reach of their understanding.

The Poles who think like you do, do not need this lecture; those who think otherwise won't fall prey to the exhortation. There is but your personal example of a good-humoured Russian that can convince them of the truth of your statement.

Besides being ethnically... whatever cannot and doesn't make you think good of the nation you belong to. I'm Russian, live in Russia but I hardly feel close to the lion's share of the Russian society. I don't like Russian history at least since the Soviets came to power nor I like the direction the country's moving to at the moment. In one sense I feel closer to the Poles for their turn of mind in spite of their factual origins. Hope that makes sense.

It depends what the topic maker's aim is. If we wants to bring the Russian and Polish people together, that's fine. If he wants Polish people to develop a sympathy for the Russians leaders, it aint gonna happen.

For me he is like a naive little kid, full of a propaganda stuff, and knowing nothing about his own history. As I said before, I am all for reconciliation, but for god sake, please spare me all this propaganda. I have had enough of it in my life.

One time when my mother was here visiting, I invited them all (my mom and my friend from Donetsk,) out to a nice restaurant. Since I was inviting them, I assumed everyone knew that I would be paying. At the end of the meal, I paid, and neither of them offered to chip in or leave a tip. After we left, my mom asked why my friend hadn't offered to pay, and she told me to "be careful about her" because some Ukrainians can be sly about squeezing money out of people.

My aunt also warned me about her... I asked why, and she said it was because the Ukrainians "did a lot of bad things to Poles" during the war. I didn't ask her to elaborate.

But I`m affraid that even Poles who think like me may not hear alternative point of veiw anywhere.Take in account their propaganda.

What I`m concerned about is only biological racism that some Poles experience to Ukrainians and ethnical Russians.
I guess you would agree that insulting Ukraininas on Polish radio and beating Russians on the streets (including woman and children)
during Soccer championship is not a something ttat should be ignored.And Polish bookstores full of anti-Ukrainian propaganda...
Could you explain why Ukrainians should tolerate all this racism?And shouldn`t Polish society somehow divide on this issue (at least if there is still some normal people) and create some anti-racist society which would be trying to protec interests of Ukrainians and Russians?

My father's uncle was send to forest for wood by his father.Everyone told him it wasn't save because of Ukrainians but he said it's rubbish My father's uncle went and later horses came back with his sliced body.