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Poles and Russians -- love-hate relationship?


MyMom 6 | 137
5 Sep 2011 #122
Poles love freedom while Russian are used to being servants of their rulers rather than citizens.
alxmac 5 | 27
7 Jan 2012 #123
I honestly think most poles are jealous of Russia and its many peoples

in the end we are all slavic
southern 75 | 7,096
7 Jan 2012 #124
In individual level they get along quite well.I have never seen any friction between Russians and Poles while there is friction between Poles and Germans.
Mykhaylo UA - | 56
8 Feb 2013 #125
After meeting

Meaning: loving at a distance?
Vlad123 7 | 204
9 Feb 2013 #126
who may think Russian government is playing hard towards Poland (by restricting access to gas

Potentially Poland and Ukraine could find alternative sources to Russian gas completely.
There is huge reserves of coalbed methane and shale gas in both Poland and Ukraine,biogas could be produced in large quantities.Gas power plants could be replaces with some Thorium power plants.

Recently some major oil company started production of shale gas in Ukraine.So this is mostly queston of time.

Poles love freedom while Russian are used to being servants of their rulers rather than citizens.

I`m interesting where this love for a freedom in Poles came from.Some ancient Western European hitorian wrote that there is no country in the world (during his time) where feudals would be so cruel to pesants as in Poland.

Polish serfs received freedom later then Russians did.Probably it partially explains it...
jwojcie 2 | 763
15 Feb 2013 #127
I`m interesting where this love for a freedom in Poles came from

From loosing it obviously...:

"Czegóż płaczesz? - staremu mówi czyżyk młody -
masz teraz lepsze w klatce niż w polu wygody".
"Tyś w niej zrodzon - rzekł stary - przeto ci wybaczę;
Jam był wolny, dziś w klatce i dlatego płaczę."

Ignacy Krasicki, "Praszki w klatce"

"Why do you weep?" inquired the young siskin of the old,
"You're more comfortable in this cage than out in the cold."
"You were born caged," said the elder, "this was your morrow;
"I was free, now I'm caged-hence the cause of my sorrow."

Translation by
Christopher Kasparek
en.wikisource.org/wiki/Fables_and_Parables#Birds_in_a_Cage



:)
Mykhaylo UA - | 56
15 Feb 2013 #128
Poles and Russians -- love-hate relationship?

How is the mutual love manifested in this love-hate relationship?

What Russia need (not only Russia) is full democracy and transparency on all level of society.

Do you want the Russian Federation to collapse as the SU under the liberal Gorbi regime did?

I think, the first, who would secede from the Federation in the first month of democracy, would be, of course, the Chechens. The second, their brothers, the Ingushens. The third - the Kazan Tartars (6 million strong nation, dreaming all the time about re-gaining their lost statehood) etc.
Paulina 10 | 1,728
15 Feb 2013 #129
How is the mutual love manifested in this love-hate relationship?

By drinking vodka together xD
jwojcie 2 | 763
15 Feb 2013 #130
How is the mutual love manifested in this love-hate relationship?

It is kind of a thing of a past. For example Russians loved Anna German Poles loved Władimir Wysocki...
Currently Russian artists are unknown in Poland, and of course even more Polish artists are unknown in Russia...

so only distate towards another version of tzar remained... that thing kind of don't want to let go...
Mykhaylo UA - | 56
15 Feb 2013 #131
By drinking vodka together xD

How often do you take part in such manifestations?
Paulina 10 | 1,728
15 Feb 2013 #132
I don't, I've never had an opportunity to do so ;)
Vlad123 7 | 204
15 Feb 2013 #133
Currently Russian artists are unknown in Poland, and of course even more Polish artists are unknown in Russia...

There is some well known Polish artists who lived and performed in Russia. For example Edita Piekha and Barbara Brylska.
crochetbitch88 2 | 83
15 Feb 2013 #134
I'd say it's a love and hate relationship. :) We love Russia and we detest her. We look down at Russia and yet we can't quite help admiring her. This kind of relationship, it's pretty toxic and addictive. I don't know how the Russians view it though
Mykhaylo UA - | 56
15 Feb 2013 #135
I don't, I've never had an opportunity to do so ;)

What a pity!!! Also, because I was just going to ask about the units of measuring the strength of love during/after such sessions (?) (cracked bottles, glasses?)
jwojcie 2 | 763
15 Feb 2013 #136
There is some well known Polish artists who lived and performed in Russia.For example Edita Piekha

Yeah, that what I meant, it is all the past
Mykhaylo UA - | 56
15 Feb 2013 #137
BTW, we have other names in our history, Su-vo-rov for example. Do you know him?

I think he does (if i may join your dialogue), because Alexander Suvorov was the commander of the Russian Army that crashed the Polish uprising led by Kosciuszko which brought about the 3rd partition of Poland among Russia, Prussia and Austria.
Adrit
28 Aug 2013 #138
Being a Pole with some Russian let's say 'blood' on my mother's side, I'm glad that there are still people who think like me.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
15 Sep 2013 #139
The third - the Kazan Tartars (6 million strong nation, dreaming all the time about re-gaining their lost statehood) etc.

Too generous estimate I think. Population of Kazan is a shade more than a million with yet a majority of the Russians. Nationalistic message among the contemporary Tatars is a way too weak, many are mixed with the Russians and rather adhere to nationalistic stance of the Russians than the other way round.

Although separation of the Southern Caucasus is a very likely thing to happen in case of more or less liberal movements. There's currently no reason to keep it but for the sake of sustaining putin's regime.
Crow 146 | 9,105
15 Sep 2013 #140
Let us be realistic. Today`s Russia`s best interest is strong Poland and then creation of some new Commonwealth around Poland. On the other side, such a new Commonwealth should declare its military neutrality on any global military alliance.
4 eigner 2 | 831
15 Sep 2013 #141
Let us be realistic. Today`s Russia`s best interest is strong Poland

that's not being realistic, it's what you want it to be ;-)
Crow 146 | 9,105
15 Sep 2013 #142
no, i am sure that we speak of authentic best Russia`s interest. That if Russia represent independent country, if Russia herself is strong enough. But, if that`s not the case, then Russia needs to balance her interests with her partners from western Europe (and USA) and Poland regularly paid it throughout history.

Ironically, now Poles needs to hope that is Russia strong enough.
4 eigner 2 | 831
15 Sep 2013 #143
no, i am sure that we speak of authentic best Russia`s interest.

Russia never cared about Poland and the other way around. You wanna see friendship where there's none ;-) (btw. never was)
Crow 146 | 9,105
15 Sep 2013 #144
i didn`t say that Russia care for Poland. i don`t talk about that. There are only interests in politics. We Slavs may feel mutual solidarity among us (speaking of great majority of Slavic masses in all Slavic countries) but, it is fact that we live in different states and those states have different governments and due to it (and other factors)- sometimes, different interests.

i would explain on the example of Serbia. Fact is that Russia have interest that Serbia exist and consolidate as strong country.

First, it is so because Russia concluded throughout history that Russia can`t control Serbia/Serbs. If our states have friendly relations, considering common Slavic background, Russia knows that can count on Serbia not to be against Russia. At least that. Its ok considering that we Serbians expect same from Russia. So, today`s Serbia declared its military neutrality on global military alliances.

Second reason why Russia needs strong Serbia is due to Russia`s necessity (for her own interests) to secure this region from uncontrollably presents of the Germany and Turkey, with it to secure approach to her borders from this side. In this, Serbian and Russian interests again overlap. Germany and Turkey are regularly hostile on Serbia.

See, why Poland and Russia wouldn`t organize their relations by same principles? Russia knows that Russia can`t control Poland. Russians learned it. Also, while Poland exist (and on the long run can exist only if strong), Germany don`t have direct access to the Russian borders from that side. See? Same situation as it is with Serbia just different geographical location.

Then, how would situation develop, in the eyes of Russia, if we have strong Serbia and strong Poland. Naturally, Poland and Serbia would turn to each others as they always did in history when they wanted more power. More power for Poland and Serbia means increased security for Russian western borders. As long as we respect our neutrality on global military alliances we would continue to have Russian support for strengthening of Poland and Serbia.

Same what i said for Serbia and Poland, goes also for Ukraine, Czech Republic, Slovakia, etc, etc. So, in one moment situation may develop in creation of the new Commonwealth. This is exactly what happening in this historical moment, now.
Sasha 2 | 1,083
15 Sep 2013 #145
if Russia herself is strong enough. But, if that`s not the case

How do you want to be realistic then?

Now if we go back to Poland's role for Russia in the light of simple partnership, then Russia needs a strong and reliable e.g. trade partner anyway be it Poland or any other country that's willing to carry on trade. Military, Russia has always been in need of strong (and obedient) Poland as a client state, sort of an airbag against potential Western Aggression.

Now that the military means has changed drastically, client state strategy doesn't work any more and Russia will continue to fall apart until find a solid economical solution to stop this.
Crow 146 | 9,105
16 Sep 2013 #146
Now if we go back to Poland's role for Russia in the light of simple partnership, then Russia needs a strong and reliable e.g. trade partner anyway be it Poland or any other country that's willing to carry on trade.

ok

Military, Russia has always been in need of strong (and obedient) Poland as a client state, sort of an airbag against potential Western Aggression.

Sasha are you aware of mega trends? Did you noticed that today`s Russia by helping to Serbia, demonstrate her interests for strong Serbia. Now, strong Serbia (weak even less) can`t be controlled by Russia. You know, we Serbians have bigger plans then just to vegetate. We already (and on the contrary to you, official Russia seam aware of it and agree with it), rising our head and our eyes search for Poland. Our hands are offered to Poland. Its our vital interest. There is old, i would even say ancient order of things. Something Sarmatian.

Both, Poland and Serbia would seek for more power, for simple reason- to reduce their dependance of foreign factors. We are to each others, natural partners. On the other side, same as Russia has interest that Poland and Serbia exist (and in our time may exist only if strong), Poland and Serbia would have interest that Russia exist. Let Russia deal with Chinese and we would deal with west of Europe. Its honest deal. Let`s not commit suicide and stab each others in the back.

Now that the military means has changed drastically, client state strategy doesn't work any more and Russia will continue to fall apart until find a solid economical solution to stop this.

Exactly. Best solution for today`s Russia is to allow strengthening of Poland and Serbia and with time to support creation of new Commonwealth if things move in that direction.

Borders of the new Commonwealth should be understand as technical details from the Russian side, as well as Russian investment in her interests.

How do you want to be realistic then?

well, say what exactly you didn`t understood.
Natasa 1 | 580
16 Sep 2013 #147
WHERE IS SOUTHERN?:(
Hi Crow, Hi Sasha :))
Crow 146 | 9,105
16 Sep 2013 #148
Hello my Lady

Yes, Southern is good for relaxation. Suppose he would come to party
Natasa 1 | 580
16 Sep 2013 #149
I missed you all :) Ok, most of you. But, to be honest my soulmate here was southern. Lol :)
Zdravo, Vrano :)))
Bilo je tragièno prvih par meseci, diamika foruma se toliko izmenila tvojim banom, da je naš Grk èekao najpre, pa odustao posle x godina od foruma. Pojavljuje li se on nekada?
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
16 Sep 2013 #150
Hey Natasa! It is good to see you again. This forum needs Slavic intellectuals. It is too dominated by uneducated British racists.


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