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Ukrainian-occupied Eastern Poland



Vlad123 7 | 206    
27 Dec 2012  #61

What a BS! Anyway who cares IT WAS MIDDLE AGED HISTORY!

Since 1772 Lwow was Polish for 19 years only: 1920-1939.
So what was after Middle Ages?

In 1900, when it was still part of the Austrian empire, it's population was 20% Ukrainian, 49% Polish and 27% Jewish.

Not even absolute majority.


Ironside 46 | 8,407    
27 Dec 2012  #62

So what was after Middle Ages?

Ever heard about Burgundy?

Since 1772 Lwow was Polish for 21 years only: 1920-1939.

And not once before 1991 Lwów belonged to Ukraine. So what is about those dates, you are bragging or crying?

Not even absolute majority.

As if Rusini have been ever majority there before 1944!
Vlad123 7 | 206    
27 Dec 2012  #63

As if Rusini have been ever majority there before 1944!

Well,in any case, are you seriously want to claim some city
which whould be surrounded by Ukrainian territory?Or would claim
corridor of land to it?And which parts of Ukraine are you going to
claim beside Lviv?
kcharlie 2 | 170    
27 Dec 2012  #64

I think that Lvov has historically been a multicultural city and that for most of its history, Polish has been the main language spoken there.

But my position as a fairly patriotic Pole is that I am quite happy for Lvov to remain Ukrainian, I hope the Ukrainians take care of it and that Ukrainian culture and language continues to flourish within it.
pawian 127 | 6,555    
27 Dec 2012  #65

But my position as a fairly patriotic Pole is that I am quite happy for Lvov to remain Ukrainian, I hope the Ukrainians take care of it and that Ukrainian culture and language continues to flourish within it.

Amen. History doesn`t repeat itself.

Even if Russians take over Eastern Ukraine with Kiev and all those russified Ukrainians living there, Western Ukraine has still a chance for keeping independence, with Lvov as their capital. But Poland needs to help them.
kcharlie 2 | 170    
27 Dec 2012  #66

I agree, and I sympathise with the Ukrainians facing renewed russification of their eastern territories. I believe Ukraine should be Ukrainian, and I say this as someone who generally has a positive attitude towards Russia.
Ironside 46 | 8,407    
27 Dec 2012  #67

Well,in any case, are you seriously want to claim some city

I'm not in position to claim the city.

?And which parts of Ukraine are you going to
claim beside Lviv?

Hypothetically speaking if I would have been in position to claim anything, I would.
So far I'm just providing my opinion on the issue.
I'm saying that by right said city should belong to Poland.

But my position as a fairly patriotic Pole is that I am quite happy for Lvov to remain Ukrainian, I hope the Ukrainians take care of it and that Ukrainian culture and language continues to flourish within it.

You are of course entitled to your opinion.
Vlad123 7 | 206    
27 Dec 2012  #68

Hypothetically speaking if I would have been in position to claim anything, I would.

You would claim entire Ukraine if you could?! And were would you want to put Ukrainians?
Exterminate or drive them in Siberia?..
Ironside 46 | 8,407    
27 Dec 2012  #69

You would claim entire Ukraine if you could?! And were would you want to put Ukrainians?

Do you really want to debate?
I wouldn't have claimed entire Ukraine, only those territories that rightfully should belong to Poland.
Marek11111 9 | 827    
28 Dec 2012  #70

I wouldn't have claimed entire Ukraine, only those territories that rightfully should belong to Poland.

and they are ?

Why don't you educate yourself?

I want to know what YOU considering to be Polish land in Ukraine.
kcharlie 2 | 170    
28 Dec 2012  #71

There's no need for namecalling. We can all agree that Lvov has a very significant Polish history and has significant cultural importance for Poles in general.

Where we disagree is whether Stalin's border should stand. And each of us has his reasons.

I say yes, Stalin's border should stand. Ideally, assuming the loss of Poland's eastern territories to the USSR was inevitable, I would have liked Stalin to have made Lvov a border city and allowed Poles to continue living there, even if the city belonged to the USSR. But that's not what happened.

Ironside feels the city should be returned to Poland.

Pawian feels the city should remain Ukrainian.

I too am prepared to accept the status quo, in recognition of the fact that significant numbers of Ukrainians have also historically inhabited Lvov and the surrounding areas.
Ironside 46 | 8,407    
28 Dec 2012  #72

I want to know what YOU considering to be Polish land in Ukraine.

Well, you would have to be very precise in formulating your questions.
Do you mean Polish lands, the lands Poland has the right to, historically Polish lands which could be counted in or out depending on circumscribes.

I too am prepared to accept the status quo, in recognition of the fact that significant numbers of Ukrainians have also historically inhabited Lvov and the surrounding areas.

So what?
You mean if Jews would like to claim Lodz as their land, you would say eh take it.
Vlad123 7 | 206    
28 Dec 2012  #73

There's no need for namecalling. We can all agree that Lvov has a very significant Polish history and has significant cultural importance for Poles in general.

Pardon for my ignorance,but which exacly cultural acheivements happened in Polish Lwow?Which thinkers or scientists originated there?Is it famous for scientific discoveries?
kcharlie 2 | 170    
28 Dec 2012  #74

So what?
You mean if Jews would like to claim Lodz as their land, you would say eh take it.

No. What I'm saying is that throughout its entire history, the inhabitants of Lvov and surrounding areas have been both Polish and Ukrainian. While it would be nice if it were a part of Poland or, at worst, a border city, that's not the way things have worked out.

I am prepared to accept the status quo because:
1) Ukrainians have historically been a part of Lvov too
2) Reclaiming the city would be hugely impractical
3) It has become the capital of Ukrainian culture, more so than Kiev, which is mostly Russian speaking.
4) Whereas reclaiming the city would be of modest benefit to Poland, it would be hugely destructive to Ukrainian language and culture.

I sympathise with Ukrainians, who have suffered Russian oppression for most of the last century, and while I recognise the legitimacy of Poland's claims to Lvov, I accept the status quo because executing that claim would be hugely oppressive and destructive to the Ukrainians, and I wouldn't want Poland to be the oppressor.

Pardon for my ignorance,but which exacly cultural acheivements happened in Polish Lwow?Which thinkers or scientists originated there?Is it famous for scientific discoveries?

The Panorama Racławicka of Jan Styka and Wojciech Kossak is a Polish masterpiece, originally created in Lvov. In 1980, it was moved to Wrocław, where it is now one of the main tourist attractions.

Stanisław Ulam, mathematician
Kazimierz Wajda, actor
Adam Zagajewski, poet
Julian, Alfred Zachariewicz, architects
Gabriela Zapolska, writer
Włodzimierz Trzebiatowski, chemist, physicist, mathematician
Witold Taszycki, linguist
Fr Józef Teodorowicz, theologian, politician, patriot
Bartłomiej Józef, Szymon Zimorowicz, poets
Henryk Zbierzchowski, poet

Artists:
Franciszek Tepa
Karol Adwentowicz
Aleksander Bandrowski
Ewa Bandrowska-Turska
Wiktor Bregy
Waclaw Brzeziński
Jerzy Czaplicki
Jadwiga Dębicka
Adam Didur
Adam Dobosz
Bronisława Dowiakowska
Ignacy Dygas
Ferdynand Felman
Władysław Floryański
Jerzy Garda
Anna Gostyńska
Stefan Jaracz
Jan Kiepura
Janina Korolewicz-Waydowa
Jadwiga Lachowska
Tadeusz Leliwa-Kopystański (Enzo Leliva)
Józef Mann
Stanisław Mierzwiński
Helena Modrzejewska
Maria Mokrzycka
Eugeniusz Mossakowski
Aleksander Myszuga
Matylda Polińska-Lewicka
Ada Sari
Marcella Sembrich-Kochańska
Wanda Siemaszkowa
Ludwik Solski
Eugenia Strassern
Irena Trapszo
Janusz Warnecki
Wanda Wermińska
Helena Zboińska-Ruszkowska
Roman Żelazowski
Vlad123 7 | 206    
28 Dec 2012  #75

Currently both Ukraine and Poland have territories of sufficient size and no obvious reason for territorial disputes and ultimately have possibility to develop good relations.All those talks about territorial claims is intentional provocation to spark an ethnical conflict.Do you seriously believe that Poland doesn`t have sufficient enough territory now? When whould be the end for those stupid claims: ``We need Ukraine without Ukrainians or with Ukrainians as our slaves``? As population of any Slavic nation is shrinking now,maybe there is time to unite on some new basis?Otherwise both Poland and Ukraine will ultimately loose its Slavic faces and consumed by wisier nations.
kcharlie 2 | 170    
28 Dec 2012  #76

Don't fool yourself - there's no legit claim whatsoever.

Of course there is. Historically, it's been on par with Kraków as one of the most important centres of Polish culture and a much-loved city by former Polish inhabitants. That's why losing it during the war was so painful to many Poles, more so than losing Vilnius, and that's why there continues to be a degree of nostalgia towards Lvov.

But I am happy for Lvov to remain Ukrainian now and forever.

Currently both Ukraine and Poland have territories of sufficient size and no obvious reason for territorial disputes

I agree.

When whould be the end for those stupid claims: ``We need Ukraine without Ukrainians or with Ukrainians as our slaves``

Lol, I wouldn't worry about such claims. I've only ever heard things like that on internet forums.

As population of any Slavic nation is shrinking now,maybe there is time to unite on some new basis?Otherwise both Poland and Ukraine will ultimately loose its Slavic faces and consumed by wisier nations.

You're right.

And I thought that relations between Poles and Ukrainians were generally quite good. I can't think why they shouldn't be. Ukrainians and Poles are close historically, linguistically and culturally, and it would be in their common interests to co-operate.

Unfortunately, nowadays, they're being pulled in opposite directions, with Poland blindly following the West and Russia exerting ever-increasing influence on Ukraine.
Marek11111 9 | 827    
28 Dec 2012  #77

Do you mean Polish lands, the lands Poland has the right to, historically Polish lands which could be counted in or out depending on circumscribes.

the lands Poland has the right to in your view
TheOther 5 | 3,025    
28 Dec 2012  #78

Of course there is.

Nostalgia is not a reason to make an outlandish claim legitimate.
kcharlie 2 | 170    
28 Dec 2012  #79

TheOther

I think you missed the part where I said, "Historically, it's been on par with Kraków as one of the most important centres of Polish culture".

If that's not a legitimate reason, then Poland shouldn't exist at all and Poles should have just thrown their hands up and not bothered regaining independence.
TheOther 5 | 3,025    
28 Dec 2012  #80

If that's not a legitimate reason...

So Germany has legitimate claims to her lost territory in the east as well then? You are opening a can of worms.
kcharlie 2 | 170    
29 Dec 2012  #81

Yes, of course it does! Germans have lived in and contributed greatly to the culture of the cities that are now a part of Poland. Poland's borders are a compromise, and they are a compromise that I am willing to accept.
Ironside 46 | 8,407    
29 Dec 2012  #82

the lands Poland has the right to in your view

That one is simple - border before WWII!

So Germany has legitimate claims to her lost territory in the east as well then?

Nope, I'm explaining to you and explaining to you and you just refuse to listen. Ever heard about unconditional surrender? Do you understand implications of that act? legitimate implications!

All those talks about territorial claims is intentional provocation to spark an ethnical conflict.

Do you think that anonymous debate about that on the internet is able to spark any conflict in the real world? If so there is no much to build upon in the first place.

no obvious reason for territorial disputes

Why? Do you think that Poles should forget about their terrorizes and say - be my guest and keep it! You shoudl return those lands right after 1991 as the Stalin's gift - as they are mostly poisonous!

`We need Ukraine without Ukrainians or with Ukrainians as our slaves`

Who made such a claim?Anyway it is the Internet you can find anything here.So what?

No. What I'm saying is that throughout its entire history, the inhabitants of Lvov and surrounding areas have been both Polish and Ukrainian.

Nope - has been Polish and Ruthenian and that is different kettle of fish!

I am prepared to accept the status quo

Well good for you. As I said you are entitled to your opinion. However your reasoning do not convince me at all.
kcharlie 2 | 170    
29 Dec 2012  #83

What good would going back to the pre-war border and going back to Breslau, Danzig and Stettin do now?
ShortHairThug - | 1,104    
29 Dec 2012  #85

What good would going back to the pre-war border

This discussion is about eastern borders as for the west I’m all for reclaiming Hamburg, Kiel, Lubeck, Magdeburg, Leipzig, not to mention Berlin, mind you not for Poland per say but to create a state for Sorbs, a rightful heirs of those lands. :) Something that should have been once the war was over.
kcharlie 2 | 170    
29 Dec 2012  #86

Unfortunately, the Sorbs are on the verge of complete assimilation now.

Nope - has been Polish and Ruthenian and that is different kettle of fish!

Ruthenians are non-Russian Eastern Slavs who frequently identify as Ukrainian. What point are you trying to make?
4 eigner 2 | 848    
29 Dec 2012  #87

as for the west I'm all for reclaiming Hamburg, Kiel, Lubeck, Magdeburg, Leipzig, not to mention Berlin, mind you not for Poland per say but to create a state for Sorbs, a rightful heirs of those lands

Sorbs arrived in the area extending between the Bober, Kwisa, and Oder rivers to the East and the Saale and Elbe rivers to the West during the sixth century A.D.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sorbs#History

how do you figure they're the "rightful heirs of those lands"? What about the "rightful heirs of those lands" before the sixth century A.D.?
TheOther 5 | 3,025    
29 Dec 2012  #88

This discussion is about eastern borders as for the west I’m all for reclaiming Hamburg, Kiel, Lubeck, Magdeburg, Leipzig, not to mention Berlin, mind you not for Poland per say but to create a state for Sorbs, a rightful heirs of those lands. :) Something that should have been once the war was over.

You guys are funny. I suggest Poland in the borders of 1914. Problem solved, discussion over... :)
kcharlie 2 | 170    
29 Dec 2012  #89

I was thinking that, lol.
Ironside 46 | 8,407    
29 Dec 2012  #90

Ruthenians are non-Russian Eastern Slavs who frequently identify as Ukrainian. What point are you trying to make?

I'm only pointing out that by equaling Ruthenians with Ukrainians you are distorting reality.

I was thinking that, lol.

Let stick to the topic please! If you want debate about ridiculousness of any territorial claims or something else you can make a thread and do it to your heart content.




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