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Poland's society at communism and socialism time


Lyzko 36 | 8,463
18 Mar 2019 #31
Depends once again, Milo, on one's definition of "failure"!
Miloslaw 14 | 4,676
19 Mar 2019 #32
No it doesn't!
A failure is a failure in any language!
Socialism has always failed.....
jon357 71 | 21,105
19 Mar 2019 #33
It's been one of the biggest successes of the last 200 years. Universal franchise, public healthcare, free education, safety at work, workers' right, racial equality, women's rights, LGT equality and social housing.

If anything else were true, the right-wing would be smiling rather than constantly whinging about Socialism.
johnny reb 37 | 7,652
19 Mar 2019 #34
And what country might you be referring to jon ?
rabbishekelstein
20 Mar 2019 #35
LOL biggest success? There's a handful of socialist countries left. The majority implode all for same reasons - running out of money, stifling competition and freedom, etc. Socialism only makes income equality by making everyone poorer.

Even China isn't much of a socialist country anymore aside from having a one party system, but the economy is more capitalist and hyper competitive than the USA.
jon357 71 | 21,105
20 Mar 2019 #36
There's a handful of socialist countries left.

You're missing the point somewhat...
johnny reb 37 | 7,652
20 Mar 2019 #37
The point is that Socialism has never worked nor will it ever work.
Miloslaw 14 | 4,676
20 Mar 2019 #38
Correct.

What jon357 is talking about is not Socialism.
mafketis 34 | 12,541
20 Mar 2019 #39
Universal franchise, public healthcare, free education, safety at work, workers' right, racial equality, women's rights, LGT equality and social housing.

Those are all due to the nation state* and not socialism.... and as the nation state is weakening those things will also disappear.

*a form of government, not necessarily an ethnically pure state
jon357 71 | 21,105
20 Mar 2019 #40
Those are all due to the nation state*

Yeah, 'cos the rich and powerful of every 'nation state' just handed their dosh over to spend on the ordinary folks out of the goodness of their hearts...

The Trade Unions, the parliamentary Socialists, the activists, the protesters, the Co-op movement and the marchers didn't need to do anything at all, just sit back and thank the rich for their generosity. Nothing to see here folks, no struggles at all.
Miloslaw 14 | 4,676
20 Mar 2019 #41
Yeah, 'cos the rich and powerful of every 'nation state'

Ordinary people pay taxes too..........and it is still not Socialism that does all that in most western states.
johnny reb 37 | 7,652
20 Mar 2019 #42
Yeah, 'cos the rich and powerful of every 'nation state' just handed their dosh over to spend on the ordinary folks

That's is EXACTLY what greases the wheels for "ordinary folks" jon.
Top 1% Pays More Federal Income Taxes Than Bottom 90% in America.
So it sure the hell ain't the ordinary folks picking up the tab is it.
jon357 71 | 21,105
20 Mar 2019 #43
Top 1% Pays More Federal Income Taxes

When they've exhausted all avenues for avoiding it. The rich are so sweet...
Spike31 3 | 2,178
20 Mar 2019 #44
Maybe, let's just make clear what's the difference between socialism and communism.

In a communism, the working class owns everything, and everyone works toward the same communal goal.

In socialism the government own a operates the means for production and workers work for wages.
In socialism workers receive not much more than they need to produce and survive, and there's no incentive to achieve more which leads to economic stagnation.

So basically there is no [and there never was] any communist country. Communism maybe existed in some primitive tribes in Amazon but it doesn't scale up.

And socialist countries, such as the USSR, went bankrupt duo to ineffective economic system.
johnny reb 37 | 7,652
20 Mar 2019 #45
Excellent post Spike as you explained it perfectly.

When they've exhausted all avenues for avoiding it.

As long as the rich have exhausted all avenues legally then you tell me why they shouldn't use what is at their disposal ?
This is why they are rich is because they know how to manage money which is totally lacking with Socialists.
The rich are very sweet by paying the largest amount of the tax base.
This is why Socialism doesn't work is because it depletes the rich so there no longer are any rich to keep things running.
There is NOTHING free as in free education, free healthcare, free this and that.......SOMEONE HAS TO PAY for all that Free Stuff jon.
Socialism only makes income equality by making everyone poorer.
Eventually the money runs out to pay for all that free stuff and the economy collapses.
You think your Socialist Propaganda works so well I suggest you move to Venezuela or Cuba and see how you prosper as for the quality of life.
mafketis 34 | 12,541
20 Mar 2019 #46
out of the goodness of their hearts...

Democracy wasn't something nice that governments did for people, it was the price they had to pay if they wanted to educate the public enough to run an advanced society.

The bargain was roughly the government tries to improve citizens' quality of life and in return the citizenry comes to help when the government calls

Socialism doesn't mix well with this model because of the widespread apathy and chaos it engenders...
Lyzko 36 | 8,463
20 Mar 2019 #47
Socialism is NOT Communism and I don't see many Danes or Swedes rebelling against their way of life with protest votes and political upsets as have plagued the US!

Allright, Sweden has trimmed down somewhat her quite generous welfare state over the past decades, at least there isn't the same sort of social turmoil as we have, albeit as a considerably smaller, traditionally homogeneous society, the average working-class Swede hasn't been handling the immigration problem as one would have expected.
Spike31 3 | 2,178
20 Mar 2019 #48
Sweden is an example of a wealthy capitalist country which over decades has turned into semi-socialist state. Sweden is not totally socialist since the government doesn't own nor control all means of production ie: the state doesn't own all the business running in the country - it is just content with taxing them heavily in order to afford welfare state.

So Sweden basically is a semi-socialist state that is being powered by a capitalist engine.

Here's an interesting take on a Nordic Model

elgar.blog/2014/09/09/embracing-capitalism-the-real-success-of-swedens-universal-welfare-state/
mafketis 34 | 12,541
20 Mar 2019 #49
No, Sweden is a capitalist country with a strong social welfare component, not socialist at all.
johnny reb 37 | 7,652
20 Mar 2019 #50
with protest votes and political upsets as have plagued the US!

That's because Capitalism built America, has worked very well for over 200 years and made us the most powerful Country in the world.
Then come along all you Commie Socialists with your propaganda demanding (protesting) how everything should be free.
That's why we call you the "Opposition Party".....you want to destroy all that as Dirk has explained to you in detail.
What do you expect us Capitalistic Constitutionalist do, sit on our hands and watch Socialism DESTROY what we worked so hard for ?
Move to Cuba or Venezuela Lyzko and see how long you last before you are back kissing the American soil.
Spike31 3 | 2,178
20 Mar 2019 #51
No, Sweden is a capitalist country with a strong social welfare component, not socialist at all.

You contradicted yourself in the same sentence. That mandatory social welfare component is indeed a part of socialism.

Social engineering, that is enforced redistribution of fruits of work, achieved by heavy taxation and welfare programs, from those who produce it to those who don't contribute to making it is a part of socialism.
jon357 71 | 21,105
20 Mar 2019 #52
Socialism is NOT Communism and I don't see many Danes or Swedes rebelling against their way of life

Indeed. Happy, prosperous, stable societies.
mafketis 34 | 12,541
20 Mar 2019 #53
Social engineering, that is enforced redistribution of fruits of work, achieved by heavy taxation and welfare programs

Is not socialism

Socialism is NOT Communism

The Union of Soviet Socialist Republics might disagree... Polish indexes (student transcript books) had an oath for the student to defend socialism... etc etc etc

At most Scandinavian countries are social democracies (capitalist with welfare state supports)
Spike31 3 | 2,178
20 Mar 2019 #54
I'm not saying it is a socialism in pure form, just a vital part of it. Some "smart" socialists came to conclusion that establishing a pure socialist state, which never worked, is an utopia.

So it is better to regulate a free market and capitalism in a way to sponge on it and redirect the income from the pockets of those who work, produce and contribute something of value to those who don't work or who contribute very little of value for the others.

Obviously this needs to be enforced by the state, that goes without saying. So it is not thievery you see, it's a "social justice" at government's gunpoint :-P

The problem is that this system demoralise people. Some started noticing that they can live as comfortably, if not more comfortably, by claiming benefits instead of going to work. And those who still go to work have noticed that they've been punished for hard work with high progressive tax rates. The more you work, the more you pay a truly devilish invention.

A welfare state is a parasite which in a long term leads to death of its own feeder.

The inherent vice of capitalism is the unequal sharing of blessings; the inherent virtue of socialism is the equal sharing of miseries.

Winston Churchill
Lyzko 36 | 8,463
20 Mar 2019 #55
Johnny, sure it only SEEMS that the US is as you say it still is owing no doubt to some pretty hefty, indeed skillful, PR, with folks like The Trumpster leading the cheering section! Many Europeans find America a laughing stock and it's not out of jealousy or some such nonsense, believe me.

Always easy to say that everything's "A-okay" 24 seven, if one's not listening to the complaints out there, blithely ignoring endemic, to be sure, systemic, problems, and/or drowning most difficulties, personal or otherwise, in a steady stream of booze or drugs:-)

Any president literally unable to accept criticism either has a mental unbalance or is plain stupid, or.....is on something!

I always say, take the best of both worlds, the fantastic freedom of sheer space offered by the US, combine it with some of the infrastructural standards of the major Scandinavian countries, and you have paradise on earth.

@Spike31,

Yes, technically you're correct.


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