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Poland - Scotland, the untold story...


Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Aug 2010 #31
I'll join that club :) Still, 25,000 Poles in Aberdeenshire puts things in perspective :) That number still couldn't convince the numpties at Aberdeen Airport to create a flight to Poland. Aberdeen-Kraków, make it happen!
David_18 68 | 982
25 Aug 2010 #32
Yeah, their influence is acutely felt in Kraków and Poznań. We taught them their ways

Yupp in Krakow you (The scots ) had your own district. Don't know if the buildings still exists, but i guess they do since Krakow didn't get destroyed in WW2.

The Scots are actually something Poland should be proud of, you were loyal to us in bad and good times.

The Scots in Poland was composed of craftsmen such as weavers, tailors, shoemakers, makers of leather goods, saddlers, tanners and brewers. We hear also of Scottish apothecaries.

A specially privileged group consisted of those Scots who supplied provisions to the Polish army and the Royal Court. King Stephen Batory (1576-86) had a high opinion of them and granted them special privileges. Eight Scots were appointed as purveyors to the Court. They were expected to follow the Royal Court wherever it moved and could trade freely in the country as well as in the capital. When a vacancy occurred, the king would fill it with another Scottish merchant. This privilege of Scottish merchants of purveying to the Royal Court was kept for a long time, up till the end of the seventeenth century.

In his edict, signed at Niepolomice in 1585, King Stephen Batory declared:

The Scots who always follow Our Court and who are at liberty in all places, where We and Our Royal Court stay, to exhibit their wares and to sell them, complain that they are prevented by Our faithful subjects from exercising their privileges granted by Us, in Cracow likewise.

Now We command you to put nothing in their way in this business, especially not to hinder those to whom We have given liberty of trading and-assigned a certain district .... For if they on account of the future of their trade should leave Our Court none of you indeed will follow Us into Lithuania*** and other places. Our Court can not be without them, that supply Us with all that is necessary. It is just, therefore, that they should enjoy the same privileges in Cracow as elsewhere. They have also supplied Us well in former times of war. Let a certain district be assigned to them. This We command Our faithful subjects.


homepage.ntlworld.com/josephd.ross/index.html
Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Aug 2010 #33
It works two ways, David. The Poles were fearless warriors in WWII. They did our planes proud and defended the island with aplomb.

Scots and Poles have always been talented craftsmen :)

There is a major Scottish-Polish organisation in Scotland. The Scots I know tend to think well of them. Then again, the Scots I know tend to be highly fair and educated people who are willing to give others a chance and honour the good things they did for us. There are plenty that are not that way :(
David_18 68 | 982
25 Aug 2010 #34
There are plenty that are not that way :(

Seriously i don't blame them. This allways happends when a huge wave of emigrants come to another country.

Poles or not poles. I doubt the reaction would have been any different if 1 milj Germans invaded the UK and "stole" your jobs..
Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Aug 2010 #35
I understand their feelings but many needed a wake-up call. I still hear that the same people are doing the same things and, frankly, I have no wish to talk to many people I knew in Scotland as they are just alcohol-fuelled dic*s! I hope more and more Poles keep bringing a fresh infusion of new ideas and wake up those complacent morons who I wouldn't even pay.
David_18 68 | 982
25 Aug 2010 #36
no wish to talk to many people I knew in Scotland as they are just alcohol-fuelled dic*s!

People are people, you will find those "Alcoholic fuelled" in the polish wjoskas too haha.

I hope more and more Poles keep bringing a fresh infusion of new ideas and wake up those complacent morons who I wouldn't even pay.

The poles should move back to Poland and let your "morons" build up their own country.

Ok i understand that it's hard living in Poland right now, but i doubt moving away from your problem and be treated like an animal in the other is a good solution.

It's not like the poles are getting the job they are educated for when they apply for a job in the UK.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
25 Aug 2010 #37
True on the first point :)

Also true on the second. There are many escape artists that would make Houdini look amateurish :) They just need more courage.
zetigrek
25 Aug 2010 #38
Ok i understand that it's hard living in Poland right now, but i doubt moving away from your problem and be treated like an animal in the other is a good solution.

I don't agree. I think its more patriotic to find a job abroad than sit on a dole in Poland.
David_18 68 | 982
25 Aug 2010 #39
You're just creating a bad circle and teaching the youngsters that it's ok to move abroad to find a better "life". Most of the cases they wont find anything at all, and if they do find something it wont be anything that they were educated for in Poland.

Poland would earn more in the long term by keeping it's population inside the country. But firstly you have to increase the wages in the public sector and by doing that the private sector would adjust to it.

But who am i to talk about it? I'm just a stupid "american" right?
convex 20 | 3,978
25 Aug 2010 #40
Or she's raising capital and gathering valuable experience. Good for her. That's the stage we're in right now.
zetigrek
25 Aug 2010 #41
You're just creating a bad circle and teaching the youngsters that it's ok to move abroad to find a better "life".

well I'm youngster and I really would like to set a life abroad :)

Most of the cases they wont find anything at all, and if they do find something it wont be anything that they were educated for in Poland.

Well I have a good example of my friend who lives in Sweden for a year now and she has satisfing job and lots of plans for the future. She is really happy now.

So it seems you are wrong.

Poland would earn more in the long term by keeping it's population inside the country.

No. Contrary.

But firstly you have to increase the wages in the public sector and by doing that the private sector would adjust to it.

I don't think it will work

But who am i to talk about it? I'm just a stupid "american" right?

I have never said you are stupid (or maybe I don't remember ;) but you probably know no one who recently emigrate while I know few ppl.

Or she's raising capital and gathering valuable experience. Good for her. That's the stage we're in right now.

I have not gone anywhere yet... Still in Poland and looking here for opportunities :)
David_18 68 | 982
25 Aug 2010 #42
well I'm youngster and I really would like to set a life abroad :)

Do it if you want too. But im just telling you that you wont be welcomed with balloons and happy faces...

Well I have a good example of my friend who lives in Sweden for a year now and she has satisfing job and lots of plans for the future. She is really happy now.
So it seems you are wrong.

Good for her. Lets hope it will end the same way for you.

No. Contrary.

How the F can it be contrary?

People leaving the country will never be profitable. Short term YES, but in the end some people will decide to settle in their new country and will stop sending money to Poland.

You know Poland is wasting shitloads of cash to educate you guys, and you spit her in the face by taking some dirty construction job in the UK when she wasted miljons of Zloty to educate you properly. The school is for free you know?
szkotja2007 27 | 1,499
26 Aug 2010 #43
Here is an old link but I think its still [szkocja.eu/sitppolish/CCC_FirstPage.jsp] valid.
zetigrek
26 Aug 2010 #44
People leaving the country will never be profitable. Short term YES, but in the end some people will decide to settle in their new country and will stop sending money to Poland.

and who said that those ppl would be profitable staying in Poland? How do you know that they won't be a class of frustrated jobless ppl?

That's why I supporty the idea of school fees in the higher education level. If we are talking about common education (podstawówka-gimnazjum-szkoła średnia) Poland spend minimum for education and our parents in fact have been paying for that in taxes.
David_18 68 | 982
26 Aug 2010 #45
Hmm no...

Poland spends big money on the school system. It swallows a big part of the budget. And ofc your parents are paying it with taxes... Maybe you rather pay 15.000 Zloty per termin?

And putting fees is the most DUMB thing to do. Only thing that will happend is that you create a dumb generation since people without money will choose not to study and go and work in some coal mine...
convex 20 | 3,978
26 Aug 2010 #46
I have not gone anywhere yet... Still in Poland and looking here for opportunities :)

We're talking about the theoretical zet that went to the Sweden to work for a marketing company.

Do it if you want too. But im just telling you that you wont be welcomed with balloons and happy faces...

But seriously, what do you know about Poland? You don't live here. Hell, have you ever lived here?

People leaving the country will never be profitable. Short term YES, but in the end some people will decide to settle in their new country and will stop sending money to Poland.

And the majority come back home with money that they reinvest into Poland. Poles spending money to build Poland. What's bad about that again?

You know Poland is wasting shitloads of cash to educate you guys, and you spit her in the face by taking some dirty construction job in the UK when she wasted miljons of Zloty to educate you properly. The school is for free you know?

Because working the dirty UK construction job, sending money back, and having that money buy things that have 22% VAT is still a net gain for the Polish treasury. You are making the DDR argument by the way. The government didn't pay for a damn thing. Students parents paid for it. Their children can go wherever they damn well please. After all, they paid for it.
David_18 68 | 982
26 Aug 2010 #47
But seriously, what do you know about Poland? You don't live here. Hell, have you ever lived here?

I know enough.

And the majority come back home with money that they reinvest into Poland. Poles spending money to build Poland. What's bad about that again?

Pure media propaganda. Like i said its looks great in the short term, but later on it hurts the economy more then it helps it.

Don't you understand that for every pole that decides to settle in the UK, Poland and its tax payers loosing millions of Zloty. Try to calculate how much Poland spends on free education and free healthcare on each person in a period of 18 years. What they are sending back ain't even covering one third....

Because working the dirty UK construction job, sending money back, and having that money buy things that have 22% VAT is still a net gain for the Polish treasury. You are making the DDR argument by the way. The government didn't pay for a damn thing. Students parents paid for it. Their children can go wherever they damn well please. After all, they paid for it.

Obviously the parents pays taxes... But does that mean it's right that their children should move to the UK and work and live like animals just so they can earn a little bit more?
OP dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
26 Aug 2010 #48
Poland spends on free education and free healthcare on each person in a period of 18 years. What they are sending back ain't even covering one third....

Not really, most of the Poles in the UK and those that work for me are students, who take a year or two out to experience living in a new country and to save money for their Uni fee's. "Free education" is a laugh in Poland. Yeah you might get your course work paid for you, but ur bursary hardly even covers a quarter of your living fee's. Other Poles who stay more long term are here because there simply isn't any work in Poland or that the wages are too small for their level of education.

Obviously the parents pays taxes... But does that mean it's right that their children should move to the UK and work and live like animals just so they can earn a little bit more?

Why not, it's better than staying in a country where you work for a pittance struggling to get by. Are you seriously saying that someone should live in poverty? and that someone shouldn't move abroad to further their career?
convex 20 | 3,978
26 Aug 2010 #49
I know enough.

How? You're not here. You rely on the international media, and maybe some local contacts to provide you with information. Am I wrong there? Why not come here and educate yourself on what's going on.

Pure media propaganda. Like i said its looks great in the short term, but later on it hurts the economy more then it helps it.

Funny, I know a couple of people who have come back and built houses, started businesses, paid of debts to free capital. How does that hurt the economy? Maybe your media is lying to you? My eyes aren't lying to me.

Try to calculate how much Poland spends on free education and free healthcare on each person in a period of 18 years.

Not a lot. How many Poles leave for good?

Obviously the parents pays taxes... But does that mean it's right that their children should move to the UK and work and live like animals just so they can earn a little bit more?

I think it's pretty unfair to say that. There are a lot of people working blue collar jobs, some working white collar jobs. Live like animals is a bit sensationalist, don't you think? And as was mentioned earlier, Poles would rather get off their asses and work than sit around collecting checks in Poland.

Just curious, if you don't live here, and you're not Polish, why does Poland interest you so much?
OP dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
26 Aug 2010 #51
Just curious, if you don't live here, and you're not Polish, why does Poland interest you so much?

Don't ask him that!!!! he gets very defensive :D
David_18 68 | 982
26 Aug 2010 #52
Not really, most of the Poles in the UK and those that work for me are students

Good for you... Im still not saying that all poles stays, just said that Poland looses huge amount of money from those who settles in the UK.

who take a year or two out to experience living in a new country and to save money for their Uni fee's. "Free education" is a laugh in Poland.

Im not talking about Uni. Anyway Poland and it's tax payers pays huge amounts to cover most of the Uni fees too...

Poles who stay more long term are here because there simply isn't any work in Poland

Good for them :)

Why not, it's better than staying in a country where you work for a pittance struggling to get by

Like they wont struggle in the UK? you ain't even paying them fair wages...

Are you seriously saying that someone should live in poverty?

They will only live in poverty in the UK, getting low wages and living in small stinky flats. In Poland the prices are adjusted by their wages ( not everything ofc ).

and that someone shouldn't move abroad to further their career?

WHAT career? since when do you advance in construction or cleaning business?

F sake stop pretend that you're doing the poles a favour...
Ironside 49 | 10,106
26 Aug 2010 #53
People leaving the country will never be profitable. Short term YES, but in the end some people will decide to settle in their new country and will stop sending money to Poland.

right, however is not that simple ....
OP dtaylor5632 18 | 2,007
26 Aug 2010 #54
Like they wont struggle in the UK? you ain't even paying them fair wages...

They get paid the same as any other UK worker doing the same job. And if they accept lower wages then it is to compete, but that is the Poles problem for accepting the lower illegal wage.

Like they wont struggle in the UK?

And no, 99.9% of the Poles I know here dont.

In Poland the prices are adjusted by their wages ( not everything ofc ).

A life on min wage in the UK is far better than that of min wage in Poland so I dont know where you get that info from.

WHAT career? since when do you advance in construction or cleaning business?

So now you are slagging of intelligent Poles who work here in many different jobs such as Accounting, Finance ect? In your own words Poles can only be toilet cleaners...

Jesus Christ mate, you haven't got a clue...

I have asked you this question many times...ever lived in Poland? or the UK for that matter? Ever plan to move back to Poland or are you another sh1t spouter who says "I will wait for Poland to become great again before I leave to move back".

If you think life is soooo great in Poland, then why the hell are you still in the US?
convex 20 | 3,978
26 Aug 2010 #55
So now you are slagging of intelligent Poles who work here in many different jobs such as Accounting, Finance ect? In your own words Poles can only be toilet cleaners...

Which probably pisses me off the most in all this. The idea that all Poles are working crappy jobs and not learning anything. The level of ignorance is astounding.

To all, please keep to the original topic.

Off topic posts will be removed. Thank you.

Trevek 26 | 1,702
26 Aug 2010 #56
How good is your Polish Trevek?

Not great. I do have a few contacts who are researching this stuff too.

My wife does the occasional translation for me.

We taught them their ways :)

Indeed. There's a great wee book called "Agents of Change" about 19th Century Scots brought over by Polish szlachta to help reform the farming and factory systems.

amazon.com/Agents-Change-Scots-Poland-1800-1918/dp/1862320810

You're just creating a bad circle and teaching the youngsters that it's ok to move abroad to find a better "life". Most of the cases they wont find anything at all, and if they do find something it wont be anything that they were educated for in Poland.

Interesting, because that is what many Scots did in Poland. A large number emigrated and found success, a lot didn't and many died. Still, it is interesting hearing an American speak like this when this is a country built on migrants energy and 'pioneer spirit' (I'm not having a dig, I'm serious).

The problem in Poland is that many people cannot find jobs which they have been educated for and even if they do, the pay is appalling. I was offered a job (20 hours p/w) in a state school and the pay was not even 4 Euroes an hour as a 'beginning' teacher. In UK or Ireland I could get around twice that working in McD's. My daily bus fare would be about an hour's wages.

Like they wont struggle in the UK? you ain't even paying them fair wages...

They get paid at least a minimum wage. In fact, it is now the British who 'aint even paid a decent wage' because the migrant labour has driven the wages down in a lot of areas.

On the other hand, villages where I live in Poland have high unemployment, little chance of work, little access to higher education, high alcoholism and social problems and cases of teenage pregnancy, three/four generations living in one flat on the pensions of the grandparents.

Guess a stinky flat in UK and a daily wage, child benefit and potential for free education is a bit of a come down, isn't it?

Another Link.

The list of names in the last 6 documents might be of interest.

electricscotland.com/history/prussia/index.htm
Galloglaich 3 | 36
27 Aug 2010 #57
My understanding is that the Polish / Hanseatic city of Elbag / Elbing had a significant Scottish (as well as Irish and English) expat population from quite early due to the close trade relations with the British Isles, starting in the 15th Century when Elbag joined Poland as part of the Prussian Confederation and becoming well established by the 16th.

From the wiki: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elbl%C4%85g#Hanseatic_Elbing.htm

From 1579 Elbląg had close trade relations with England, to which the city accorded free trade. English, Scottish, and Irish merchants settled in the city. They formed the Scottish Reformed Church of Elbląg and became Elbing citizens, aiding Lutheran Sweden in the Thirty Years' War. The rivalry of nearby Danzig interrupted trading links several times. By 1618 Elbląg had left the Hanseatic League owing to its close business dealings with England.

interestingly Gdansk fought (and won) a war against England during the late 15th Century called the "anglo-hanseatic war"

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Hanseatic_War.htm

G.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
27 Aug 2010 #58
There are some names on this list for "Elbing".

electricscotland.com/history/prussia/part3-3.htm

I believe it was a Hanse town before Gdansk.

I'm another one in a long line of Aberdonians who came here :)

There's a book by a guy called Dobson.

which lists names of Scots who travelled to Poland. He lists 4 Alexander Chalmers' (and a few other Chalmers). Mainly from Aberdeenshire.
poland_
5 Sep 2010 #59
He lists 4 Alexander Chalmers

Trevek, Today,I went to the house in Warsaw were A C lived and there on the wall is the Commemorative plaque.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
5 Sep 2010 #60
Yes, I have a photo of it on my FB. Did you visit the museum inside? Nothing to do with AC but a nice little museum of the shoe-maker's guild. Quite interesting in its own right.

I believe they were going to try to put a plaque to AC in the cathedral too (there was one there before the war), any idea if they have done so, yet?

Also, in the city museum there is a map of who lived in the houses of the main square, and a couple of them seem to have Scottish names.


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