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Poland did reasonably well in land terms out of the postwar settlement


Varsovian 92 | 634
23 Feb 2012  #1
True, it was in the east that Polish history was forged, but even now in what is currently eastern Poland you can see that it is under-developed compared to the lands Germany lost to Poland. And, true, Poland lost out in terms of sq.km. but it wasn't / isn't the disaster the Hungarians still have to live with nowadays.
pawian 161 | 9,968
23 Feb 2012  #2
Yes, we lost territories with Ukrainian, Lithuanian and Belarussian minorities which used to cause trouble in the past as they refused to be polonised. Today Poland is a homogenous country and that is our great asset.
TheOther 5 | 3,801
23 Feb 2012  #3
Today Poland is a homogenous country and that is our great asset.

I don't see that as a lasting asset, as you call it. Poland and other countries of the Soviet bloc were protected from the development that happened in the west. At some point of time reality will catch up with Poland and I wonder what will happen then. The country isn't an isolated island anymore.
pawian 161 | 9,968
23 Feb 2012  #4
Ooops.

Are you sure you understood my post as well as OP`s original idea at all? :):):):)
TheOther 5 | 3,801
23 Feb 2012  #5
You got rid of your pesky minorities through the "land exchange" that was ordered by Stalin and through the ethnic cleansing that happened after WW2. Made Poland a homogenous country when it comes to her population. My point is that this will not last forever.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
23 Feb 2012  #6
If people had to vote on swapping Szczecin, Gdansk, Poznan and Wroclaw for Vilnius, Lvov and Grodno it would be a waste of ballot paper.

the disaster the Hungarians still have to live with nowadays.

Yes. They got a terrible deal.

Today Poland is a homogenous country and that is our great asset.

I'm not sure that's any sort of plus.
pawian 161 | 9,968
23 Feb 2012  #7
My point is that this will not last forever.

What do you mean? Stop being such a riddle wrapped in an enigma!

pawian:Today Poland is a homogenous country and that is our great asset.

I'm not sure that's any sort of plus.

Then we reached a disagreement. :):)::)

If people had to vote on swapping Szczecin, Gdansk, Poznan and Wroclaw for Vilnius, Lvov and Grodno it would be a waste of ballot paper.

Yes. Why write about obvious things?
TheOther 5 | 3,801
23 Feb 2012  #8
What do you mean?

Open borders -> new immigrants -> no homogenity in Poland anymore -> asset gone
pawian 161 | 9,968
23 Feb 2012  #9
Oh, I see!

However, you mistake two things. I wrote about minorities which live in a certain area for centuries and try to gain independence from the country they live in. When they are turned down, they cause trouble.

You are talking about immigrants now.

Don`t you think it is not the same?
boletus 30 | 1,366
23 Feb 2012  #10
Poland is a homogenous country

But for the traitors, masons, Jews in disguise, German/Russian collaborators, bandits, communists, antichrists, nudists, papists, POpaprańcy, Pisuary, PF users, and so on… Anybody left? :-)
Crow 137 | 7,644
23 Feb 2012  #11
Poland should be bigger
ladykangaroo - | 165
23 Feb 2012  #12
Anybody left? :-)

Hidden option crouching Ślązak :D
TheOther 5 | 3,801
23 Feb 2012  #13
I wrote about minorities which live in a certain area for centuries and try to gain independence from the country they live in. When they are turned down, they cause trouble. You are talking about immigrants now.
Don`t you think it is not the same?

The immigrants of today will be the minorities of tomorrow, Pawian. Just look at the Algerians in France, the Turks in Germany or the Pakistani in Britain.
pawian 161 | 9,968
23 Feb 2012  #14
Nope. The influx of immigrants will be steady but limited in numbers. They will never feel so powerful to create a state within a state. In result, they are going to adopt the Polish lifestyle and customs, I am sure about it. :):):):)

I can see it happening now, e.g., a Vietnamese girl from my son`s class had her first Holy Communion last year.
TheOther 5 | 3,801
23 Feb 2012  #15
The influx of immigrants will be steady but limited in numbers

Interesting that you see it that way. What makes you think that Poland can avoid what happened in the west? I for one believe that once Poland has reached a certain level of economic development, it will automatically attract people from the outside. The numbers won't be small (thanks to Schengen) and the larger the number of immigrants, the bigger their impact on the local society. Poland will change significantly, I guarantee you. As I said before: look at the examples in the west and you will see Poland's future. Globalization is a very powerful force.
peterweg 36 | 2,316
23 Feb 2012  #16
You got rid of your pesky minorities through the "land exchange" that was ordered by Stalin and through the ethnic cleansing that happened after WW2. Made Poland a homogenous country when it comes to her population. My point is that this will not last forever.

Invaded by two neighbors, 25% of the population exterminated, 30% of the land stolen, forced re-location of a quarter of the pop. Occupation for 50 years and a wrecked economy.

In your stupid mind thats something Poland chose to do?
TheOther 5 | 3,801
23 Feb 2012  #17
thats something Poland chose to do?

Who said that and where? Learn to read, dude.
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
23 Feb 2012  #18
If people had to vote on swapping Szczecin, Gdansk, Poznan and Wroclaw for Vilnius, Lvov and Grodno it would be a waste of ballot paper.

Interesting. Please explain, especially the part about Poznań.
JonnyM 11 | 2,621
23 Feb 2012  #19
Subtract Poznan from the equation or swap it for Zielona Gora - the premise is still as true as the moment I posted it.

Now stop trolling!
Ironside 48 | 9,796
24 Feb 2012  #20
Being robbed and loose half of the country territory is for you reasonably well ?I don't think so!
DougTales 2 | 25
24 Feb 2012  #21
If people had to vote on swapping Szczecin, Gdansk, Poznan and Wroclaw for Vilnius, Lvov and Grodno it would be a waste of ballot paper.

Do you mean because of an overwhelming "yes" or an overwhelming "no"?
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
24 Feb 2012  #22
true, Poland lost out in terms of sq.km. but it wasn't / isn't the disaster the Hungarians still have to live with nowadays.

The land that Poland gained is the west is less fertile than the land that they lost in the Ukraine. The soil in the Ukraine is more productive because it is less sandy in substance.

As for the east of Poland as a whole and its underdeveloped state in comparison to the west, that is in large measure explained by that the fact that the eastern front in WWI just happened to be in today's eastern Poland and a bit of today's western Ukraine and Belarus. They also took most of the brunt in WWII.

Oh and lets not forget the Bolsheviks after the 1st war.

isn't the disaster the Hungarians still have to live with nowadays.

Actually the Hungarians don't have it that bad, they have far more land to go around than the Poles, in therms of population:
Poland: Density 120/km2 (83rd)
Hungary: Density 107.2/km2 (94th)

Plus Hungary is far more fertile than Poland.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
24 Feb 2012  #23
If people had to vote on swapping Szczecin, Gdansk, Poznan and Wroclaw for Vilnius, Lvov and Grodno it would be a waste of ballot paper.

What Poznan is doing on your list ?And Gdansk !
Harry
24 Feb 2012  #24
And Gdansk !

Danzig only became a Polish city after the population was ethnically cleansed.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
24 Feb 2012  #25
Gdansk only become "German" after being ethically cleansed by Germans. Seriously Harry stop your lies, nobody wiped out (killed) German inhabitants ie it was not ethic cleansing !
TheOther 5 | 3,801
24 Feb 2012  #26
nobody wiped out (killed) German inhabitants ie it was not ethic cleansing

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethnic_cleansing#Definitions

Quote:

"The official United Nations definition of ethnic cleansing is "rendering an area ethnically homogeneous by using force or intimidation to remove from a given area persons of another ethnic or religious group."

That's exactly what happened, no?
Harry
24 Feb 2012  #27
That's exactly what happened, no?

Exactly what happened: the ones who weren't killed were forced to leave.
Ironside 48 | 9,796
24 Feb 2012  #28
That's exactly what happened, no?

Definitions aside when you mention "ethic cleansing "people understand it as 'killing people'.
pawian 161 | 9,968
24 Feb 2012  #29
What Poznan is doing on your list ?And Gdansk !

A slip of the finger. Forgive him. :):):):)

Actually, you should check the number of Hungarians who live in neighbouring countries...... That was the disaster Varsovian spoke about.

Interesting that you see it that way. What makes you think that Poland can avoid what happened in the west?

You got it all mixed up again.

What happened in the West? Poor guys from former Western colonies came in millions to take revenge on their colonists and use their wealth.

Poland didn`t have colonies.

Schengen won`t allow non-EU immigrants come in mass numbers. And even if they do, they will remain illegal immigrants and as such will be deported.

The significant changes you are guaranteeing now are going to take place probably in 100 years` time.
Harry
24 Feb 2012  #30
Definitions aside when you mention "ethic cleansing "people understand it as 'killing people'.

No, that is 'genocide'.


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