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Is 5th partition of Poland possible? What kind? How? When?


pawian 157 | 9,104
13 Jan 2013  #1
Our historical member, Constantine, has returned from a long trip and shared his interesting views.

Kostia, what did you mean?

The only thing that comes to my mind right now is the mass purchase of Polish land by foreigners. Some Poles are afraid that Poland will be bought out and nothing will be Polish anymore. They call it sort of partition.

PS. First three partitions of Poland took place in 18 century

s

the fourth in 20 century

s

The only thing that comes to my mind right now is the mass purchase of Polish land by foreigners. Some Poles are afraid that Poland will be bought out and nothing will be Polish anymore. They call it sort of partition.

freepl.info/2719-foreigners-will-buy-lot-polish-land-countryside

In 2016 great acreages of the Polish land will go into the hands of foreign landowners. Until that time there will be a transitional period of time which is to help our farmers to expand their farms. It is, however, used mostly by speculators who buy the agrarian land in order to sell it to foreigners in 4 years and make a profit.

The agrarian land in Poland is getting more and more expensive. A hectare of state land currently costs 18.5 thousand PLN. For many Polish farmers, especially those owning a field of a few hectares, this price is too high so that they could enlarge their farm to a great extent. However, it is attractive for foreigners. "Land in Poland is still 2 times cheaper than in Germany and Spain, 3 times cheaper than in Italy and about a dozen times cheaper than in Belgium and the Netherlands," says Bartek Jankowski, an advisor dealing with land trade from the Land Bank, i.e. an agent of trading in agrarian land in Poland, to the "Gazeta Polska Codziennie" daily.


At the moment when the transitional period is over, thousands of hectares of the Polish land will go into the hands of foreign farmers. An average Polish farmer will need to do without it because he has no money to enlarge his own farm. A Polish pensioner will not benefit from investing in land, either because there are no regulations enabling pension funds to invest in real property. However, Dutch and German funds are already making preparations to fight for the Polish land in order to make money for their pensioners.

Foreign Poland
Grzegorz_ 51 | 6,163
13 Jan 2013  #2
Our historical member, Constantine, has returned from a long trip and shared his interesting views.

Unfortunately he's right and the 5th one is in progress.
jon357 63 | 14,120
13 Jan 2013  #3
The only thing that comes to my mind right now is the mass purchase of Polish land by foreigners. Some Poles are afraid that Poland will be bought out and nothing will be Polish anymore. They call it sort of partition.

I don't think it makes the slightest difference what nationality the owner of some land is. Thousands of British people live next door to Polish neighbours - it doesn't make their street Poland. Worth mentioning that great swathes of Norfolk and Suffolk farmland belong to foreign companies and those places are both as English as they ever were.

I also don't see a further partition. There may be more regional autonomy - this seems to be the way Europe is moving, however something like the Schleswig-Holstein issue was controversial enough there and just wouldn't happen in PL within the foreseeable future. And even in Schleswig-Holstein, they still fly the Danish flag.
kondzior 8 | 945
14 Jan 2013  #4
Irrelevant. We survive. As always. Polish people are probably one of the most resorcefull of the world, being able to endure crippling bureacracies and laws, fight tyrants and still do their thing. Its easy to believe in freedom and liberty when you are a citizen of a world superpower, but a Pole of old school can survive anything. Some call it 'cwaniactwo' but I prefer 'survival of the wittest'.
jon357 63 | 14,120
14 Jan 2013  #5
Polish people are probably one of the most resorcefull of the world

This much I agree with, but I don't think my post was irrelevant. In fact we were both saying pretty much the same thing. It truly doesn't matter who owns a field. What matters is what country it's in. It's daft to suggest as certain posters have that there's another partition on the way. If anything, Poland's role in the EU has strengthened its position as a state.
kondzior 8 | 945
14 Jan 2013  #6
Hey Jon, for once my post was not directed at you... "Irrelevant" was supposed to be an answer to the question in the thread' title... Whoever its gonna be, ( right now is seems EU may try something funny, but for Poles it would be just unifying factor), Poland survive. We'll just get more uprisings to celebrate.
jon357 63 | 14,120
14 Jan 2013  #7
In that case, I agree 100%.

The EU does have a mechanism whereby the economics of one region can be administered by a neighbouring country but I don't see that happening in Poland, and if it did, it still wouldn't affect national integrity.
Bieganski 17 | 901
15 Jan 2013  #8
Some Poles are afraid that Poland will be bought out and nothing will be Polish anymore.

I think it is in the interest of the Polish government as well as investors to maintain integrity so that rights can be protected and laws enforced. But will the Polish government be more interested in protecting the rights of foreign investors or will it be an advocate for ensuring the rights of Polish citizens prevail in any land dealings?

Like the mass privatization in earlier decades of state-owned enterprises, the majority of the population will not see much if any windfall from the sale of Polish land to foreigners.

Investors only part with their money because they expect to get it back with profit.

Agricultural conglomerates may buy up much of the land and then in turn decimate small farmers in the market place.

Other investors may buy up the land to use it for development of housing, shopping centers, theme parks, etc. Such projects may seem to be geared to benefit surrounding populations. However, such structures are not made to last and more often than not have no uniqueness to them. Essentially, they become a form of blight and ruin the characteristic of the landscape which is traditionally much appreciated by hikers, tourists, photographers, historians, etc. Something most agree should be preserved for future generations to enjoy.

There is also the matter of mineral rights. Foreign investors may only want the land to get at what is underneath it. WIth today's mechanization very few local jobs would be created as a result and that's assuming foreign businesses wouldn't be bringing in their own labor from abroad. Again, the results of such extraction may leave behind more scars on the landscape and decades of pollution from disturbing the land which results in disruption and destruction of habitats of indigenous flora and fauna.

Depending on how laws are written Poles may see no financial benefit from outsiders exploiting the land but will be stuck with the cultural and ecological damage.

So another partition would most likely be latent compared to the ethno-political ones of the past.

Another partition may occur due to extreme environmental impacts. A person may or may not believe in "global warming" however no one can deny that climate change is a very real matter here on Earth. We know of the devastations caused by earthquakes, hurricanes and tsunamis. Although Poland may be geologically isolated from these particular threats an increase in frequency and severity of them elsewhere may make regions of the world unlivable and necessitate the mass movements of entire populations. This in turn would create further strains on local environments which could lead to further conflicts as nations fight to protect or claim ever dwindling resources to sustain life.

In the future Mother Nature may do a partitioning of Poland if indeed sea levels rise high enough to significantly or permanently devastate current population centers along the Baltic coast and inland waterways.

And perhaps this won't happen in our lifetime but another ice age event in Earth's climate cycle could very well extend far enough into Poland as it did millennia ago.

Poland partitioned by ice not fire.
smurf 39 | 1,982
15 Jan 2013  #9
Don't see an issue here, more agricultural land means more trade and job and money, this provides more taxes for hospitals, roads, infrastructure etc. Everyone's a winner.

It is a shame however, that the govt. aren't providing low interest loans to Polish farmers to keep the land in the hands of Poles, but then again, they've probably looked into that and have realised that maybe Dutch and Germany industrial farmers are more efficient and will provide better profits and tax.

Foreign investors may only want the land to get at what is underneath it.

I'm not sure if that's only a law in America...I know in many EU countries that you only pay for the land, not what's under it and if natural materials, i.e gas/coal etc are found then they remain the property of the state and they would have to buy back the land from the farmer. However, I'm not aware of the law on this in Poland, so if anyone knows could they set me straight?.....where's Harry?...wish they'd unsuspend him
AlphaHarry
25 Mar 2016  #10
The 5th partition of Poland will come via The European Union. Better for Poland to
exit the EU as soon as possible, before 2018 when EU law states that after this date, Poland would need the permission of the 27 countries ( assuming Britain has already left) Which I hope it does.
Crow 137 | 7,529
25 Mar 2016  #11
New partition of Poland would happen, if Poland fails to respond to challenges, as internal process. From one side, resistance to west of Europe would rise and from other side, some would stay loyal to western Europe. It is essentially split on patriots and globalists. This antagonism would rise eventually and it may trigger division of Poland on two states (when become difficult, even possibly on more then two states).

At the moment when the transitional period is over, thousands of hectares of the Polish land will go into the hands of foreign farmers.

This is also true. This situation would be one of factors that boost antagonism between two political groups within Poland- patriots and globalists.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
26 Mar 2016  #12
The partition of the novel state of Ukraine is now underway. It is being propped up with Western financial support, which it is exhausting with its corruption. A President Trump may well come to an agreement with Putin about changing Ukraine's formal borders to recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea. With the blessing of the U.S., Poland could again include the beautiful Polish city of Lwów. Poland may need to leave the E.U. to become whole again, but it is not Poland that is in danger of shrinking.
whocares
26 Mar 2016  #13
If Judeo-America picks Ukraine over Poland, Poland would have some problems. But small chance.

Poland could again include the beautiful Polish city of Lwów.

Im sure Bandera scum would hand it over very easily.
landofthunder
4 Apr 2016  #14
It makes a lot of difference who owns the land, because they can do what
they like with it and send the profits to their home countries. If it is Monsanto, then there will be no benefit to Polish People at all. ALL profits to this Jewish Family Co., poisoning the land, bribary of local officials, poor working condotions for the few local people who would be employed. Cheaper to use Sambos. Agenda 21 - prosecuting Polish Government for any obstacles, in International Court.

Germans will demand annexation of their dream lands. Displacement of locals who seek work elsewhere. Spiritual damage at loss of a National assets.
jon357 63 | 14,120
4 Apr 2016  #15
A President Trump may well come to an agreement with Putin about changing Ukraine's formal borders to recognize Russia's annexation of Crimea

I would suggest that the Ukrainian-American lobby might have quite a lot of loud things to say about the Americans recognising the illegal invasion of Ukraine and in any case, America recognising something is neither here nor there in Europe.

Exactly the same with any further partition of Poland. It just isn't going to happen.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
4 Apr 2016  #16
The Polish-American lobby is far more numerous in the U.S. Ukies are more populous North of the border in Canada. The fact remains that Ukraine, in its present de facto borders isn't going to be accepted into whatever is left of the E.U. (Ukraine's claim to Crimea is now just a fantasy, which even Germany and France are ignoring in the Minsk accords.) Only by moving the borders will Catholic Galician Ruthenians gain access to the E.U.'s labor markets.

The Russians voided the Budapest Memorandum, so the U.S. has a free hand to recognize other borders as well. Considering that the U.S. recognized Ukraine's present Western border in exchange for the promise of the U.S.S.R. recognizing fundamental human rights at Helsinki in 1975, that contract was void for a lack of consideration. Thus, nothing "illegal" about reversing Stalin's border. With the acquiescence of the U.S.and Russia, Poland can ignore the rest of Europe if it so chooses, including Brits still in denial about their role in the loss of the Kresy.

I would suggest that the Ukrainian-American lobby might have quite a lot of loud things to say about the Americans recognising the illegal invasion of Ukraine and in any case, America recognising something is neither here nor there in Europe.

jon357 63 | 14,120
4 Apr 2016  #17
The Polish-American lobby is far more numerous in the U.S

I doubt that would make the slightest bit of difference. Nor would some dodgy deal between the next American president, whoever it may be and the Putinists. The idea of an illegal partition of a sovereign state in Europe being accepted in Europe is nowadays a fantasy.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
4 Apr 2016  #18
Ukraine is not presently a sovereign state. See Crimea and Donetsk, etc. See above comment on the Budapest Memorandum being void, and the lack of legal consideration for the Helsinki Accord.

The idea of an illegal partition of a sovereign state in Europe being accepted in Europe is nowadays a fantasy.

jon357 63 | 14,120
4 Apr 2016  #19
The United Nations (of which Ukraine is a full member) as well as the hundreds of countries that recognise Ukraine's sovereignty would certainly disagree with you there.

See Crimea and Donetsk, etc

Illegally occupied, and your 'comments' on the validity of various treaties is as laughable as the comments from a poster with a similar username suggesting that Poland's constitution is invalid.

A partition of either Poland or Ukraine is not going to happen.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
4 Apr 2016  #20
Factually incorrect. Russia, a nuclear power and permanent member of the U.N. Security Council with veto power has already begun the first partition of Ukraine. That is the Realpolitik. It is simply a matter of what other borders will be changed before stability is achieved. A comprehensive solution with Russia would include restoration of Poland's former third largest city, return of lands seized from Romania by Stalin, and the reemergence of an independent Trans-Carpathia.

A partition of either Poland or Ukraine is not going to happen.

I should note that the issue of Trans-Dniester can also be resolved with the Russians only as part of a larger regional deal.
jon357 63 | 14,120
4 Apr 2016  #21
That is the Realpolitik

No it isn't at all. The illegal invasion of Ukraine is not considered legal by anyone except the Russians & their nearest and dearest. And has resulted in international sanctions.

Your arguments come across as rather flimsy, pretending that treaties you don't like aren't valid. That and pretending that the Americans would dare for even a second to interfere with the sovereignty of a large sovereign state (acknowledged as so by the whole world) which lies on the EU's borders!

Poland's former third largest city

Former meaning 80 years ago, with the population resettled three generations ago and presumably happy enough with their homes in Poland.

Plus of course the current inhabitants of Lviv might have a few things to say...
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
4 Apr 2016  #22
The Russian occupations of Crimea, Trans-Dniester, and parts of Georgia aren't at all flimsy. They are quite stubborn reminders of how the world actually works. Pretending that treaties that you don't like aren't valid is quite a British art, but the Russians are much more blunt about renouncing treaties. Of course, neither the Budapest Memorandum nor the Helsinki Accords were actual treaties.

Your arguments come across as rather flimsy, pretending that treaties you don't like aren't valid.

And who the hell are you to presume to speak for them? A Brit who claimed Polish citizenship without renouncing British citizenship?

Former meaning 80 years ago, with the population resettled three generations ago and presumably happy enough with their homes in Poland.

delphiandomine 83 | 17,596
4 Apr 2016  #23
Your arguments come across as rather flimsy, pretending that treaties you don't like aren't valid.

It seems pretty clear that we have yet another paid Kremlin troll on here, doesn't it?

Russian trolls tend to push the idea of Kresy returning to Poland as a means of dismembering Ukraine and Belarus while also providing a context to seize part of Lithuania.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
4 Apr 2016  #24
First get a life. Then get a grip on it.

No one has suggested anything about the modern rump state of Lithuania. It is a fraction of its former size!
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
4 Apr 2016  #25
"have yet another paid Kremlin troll on here, doesn't it?" I think you are being a bit harsh here delph, you may as well add me to the list just because I would rather have what was taken from me,

"presumably happy enough with their homes in Poland"
But reality says I will have to make do with what I have had to pay for in Silesia, but I would be happier in Pod Kamien.

Delph I know you are interested in that part of Polish History it is also part and my families history see below.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pidkamin_massacre
AdrianK9 6 | 369
4 Apr 2016  #26
5th partition of Poland?

Poland's economy and government has already been partitioned.

For one, if there was an actual partition of Polish lands - I for some reason think that it would sooner be because of the EU and their neocon Zionists than Russia.

Also, I believe Russia did a much better job at 'annexing' Georgia than they did Ukraine. I thought most of those territories were handed back to Ukraine anyway after the ceasefire - I could be wrong though. I do know that Georgia lost a lot of land to Russia.

If a land partition were to occur, it wouldn't be where one country's army goes in wearing their insignia and fighting the local army. Perhaps Russia/Belarus would make some trouble with the tiny minority in the east, pretend Poland is abusing those people, and say they need to protect that minority. Highly implausible, at least in Poland, but it appears that these kinds of conflicts are more fought as proxy wars with a country backing up and supplying an ethnic minority in some land.

Another partition in my eyes of Poland would have to do with it's economy, assets, banks, politics, media, etc. You know, the things that Zionists control in nearly every European country.
jon357 63 | 14,120
4 Apr 2016  #27
They are quite stubborn reminders of how the world actually works

They are all perfect examples of how the world works, since none of the example you tried to make a point of are recognised by the international community and the first (and most relevant of them) has lead to international sanctions against the dictator Putin and his criminal gang.

And who the hell are you to presume to speak for them?

Who am I to speak? Someone who had spent far more time among such people than you ever will. I've never once heard anyone here say they'd like to pack up their life in Poland and move to Lviv.

And of course you still fail to say anything about the wishes of those who live in Lviv or what might happen to them if they (entirely understandably) object to your plan to invade their home.

It seems pretty clear that we have yet another paid Kremlin troll on here, doesn't it?

They're so transparent. And not especially good at what they do.
dolnoslask 5 | 2,423
4 Apr 2016  #28
Bit of background reading

thefullwiki.org/Massacres_of_Poles_in_Volhynia

interesting how Germany played both sides.
Lwow Eagle 4 | 51
4 Apr 2016  #29
Since the international community doesn't try to cross these borders or interfere with the Russian occupation in any meaningful way, they are clearly recognized by the international community. The U.N. is powerless to change anything, and the U.S., U.K. and NATO decline to start WWIII over any of this. That is the fact.

none of the example you tried to make a point of are recognised by the international community

Really? Your grandparents could speak Polish and another language from the Kresy? You have friends and cousins from the Kresy who aren't ethnically Polish? You lived with people who returned to Belarus, Ukraine or Lithuania every November to reunite with family members and remember those in their families who passed on? You know people who witnessed the massacres of women and children by the Ukrainian fascists? Is that why they don't want to return to a beautiful Polish city?

Or maybe you just didn't meet these people in alternative lifestyle circles in Warsaw?

I've never once heard anyone here say they'd like to pack up their life in Poland and move to [Lwów].

jon357 63 | 14,120
4 Apr 2016  #30
they are clearly recognized by the international community.

Once again, the absolute opposite of the truth. Not one of those unrecognised states has embassies, not one issues passports that are recognised outside Russia.

Is that why they don't want to return to a beautiful Polish city?

More, LvivEagle, that people have moved on. People with homes, jobs, lives in Poland are not about to move back to what's now another country that they, their parents, or nowadays even their grandparents or great grandparents left 70 years ago. And yes, I have discussed the issue.

And you still haven't said a word about the wishes of the people who currently live in Lviv.

alternative lifestyle circles in Warsaw

You're asking the wrong person. I expect you're used to getting the wrong end of the stick.


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