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The ongoing de-Germanisation of the Nazis and the Holocaust adds to Poland's Responsibility



Lyzko 15 | 2,939    
23 Nov 2016  #61

I know for a fact that the Danes rallied a grassroots support AGAINST the Germans during WWII, spearheaded chiefly by Kaj Munk, which knows almost no parallel during the period!

Country wide, Danes helped their fellow Jews, many of whom were total strangers, usually for no compensation, but out of Christian duty.

Such can be easily looked up, Ironside, even by you:-)


Ironside 43 | 7,945    
23 Nov 2016  #62

know for a fact that the Danes

Even if you know it for a fact (still no data)it is hardly enough to make a comparison.

Such can be easily looked up

you mean googled? lol
Lyzko 15 | 2,939    
23 Nov 2016  #63

... or any responsible encyclopedia will do nicely:-)
jon357 63 | 11,663    
24 Nov 2016  #64

Quite. The work of the Danish resistance is common knowledge. To be fair, Occupied Poland and Occupied Denmark had very different conditions. Nevertheless, there was still lot of bravery there, especially helping Denmark's Jewish population. As of course there was here too.

This is altogether an odd thread. There's no "ongoing de-Germanisation of the Nazis and the Holocaust" in any way at all, and Poland's history is rarely questioned unless there's a scandal over property etc.
Wulkan - | 3,077    
24 Nov 2016  #65

Poland's history is rarely questioned

Shouldn't be questioned at all so the awareness should be rised every time when it happens.
Observvver    
24 Nov 2016  #66

"Shouldn't be questioned at all so the awareness should be rised every time when it happens."

Nothing is beyond question. That is the mark of a democratic and civilised society. And if I want to say "Polish death camps", which in my language means 'death camps situated in Poland', which everyone knows means nazis, then no little Poison Dwarf at the top of PiS is going to tell me how to use my native language. Especially when he has no knowledge of the language himself.
dolnoslask 1 | 997    
24 Nov 2016  #67

And if I want to say "Polish death camps",

Israel against using term 'Polish death camps'

jpost.com/Israel-News/Politics-And-Diplomacy/Israel-against-using-term-Polish-death-camps-473374

"The issue is very sensitive to the current Polish government, which initiated legislation over the summer that would penalize anyone using the term with up to three years in prison. The Poles maintain that calling the concentration camps on their soil "Polish death camps," rather than terms such as "Nazi death camps set up in occupied Poland," whitewashes German responsibility, and places it on their shoulders."
OP Polonius3 1,009 | 12,460    
24 Nov 2016  #68

for "ZHYD".

Russian for Jew is Ivrey (Iwrej - Polish spelling). As far as I know, Żyd in Russian is pejorative, the equivalent of kike or hebe.
Harry 74 | 13,199    
24 Nov 2016  #69

Żyd in Russian is pejorative, the equivalent of kike or hebe.

Interesting that you know a word is a pejorative term but you still use it yourself:

Kikes, Wops, Spics, Jigaboos, Cannucks, Krauts, Micks

polishforums.com/life/combating-polack-jokes-27167/2/#msg684406
But I suppose that we have to expect racist language from somebody who makes up an agreement between Germany and Israel which is made up to paint the Jews unfavourably.
Ziemowit 8 | 2,408    
24 Nov 2016  #70

Correction : Russian for Jew is Еврей (Jewriej - Polish spelling).
OP Polonius3 1,009 | 12,460    
24 Nov 2016  #71

a pejorative term

Typical of the addle-brained liberal-leftist elitists to make a federal case (big deal to the non-Yanks!) of a racial or ethnic slur but are oblivious to the many people who have real problems -- in America jobs being moved to cheapie countries such as Mexico, in Poland low-paying jobs forcing people to emigrate.
Harry 74 | 13,199    
24 Nov 2016  #72

in Poland low-paying jobs forcing people to emigrate.

Yes, it's a real pity that people waste time on fantasies such as an non-existent ongoing de-Germanisation of the Nazis and the Holocaust adding to Poland's responsibility rather than Poland's economic problems. But then we also have a 'government' which is more interested in settling historical scores, buying votes and wedging its collective snout in the trough than doing anything to help Poland's economy.
OP Polonius3 1,009 | 12,460    
24 Nov 2016  #73

Correction

Spasibo! My first contact with spoken Russian (when I was knee-high to a grasshopper -- nice Americanism!) was with my dziadek who had served in the tsarist army's (music corps) during the Russo-Japanese war. He must have spoken Russian with a Polish accent and that may have influenced my pronunciation despite later uni couse work in Russian. He also said ice-cream in Russian was sachermoroz (sugar frost?), whilst at uni I learnt it was morożenoje.

But dziadek was a great guy -- a yarn-spinner and jokester. He knew no German but gave me my first German lesson: kasza - gryca, czapka, myca, słonina - spek, gówno - drek (that's how he pronounced it).
OP Polonius3 1,009 | 12,460    
24 Nov 2016  #74

people waste time on fantasies

Those enagged in fanatasies today are primarily the leftist-liberal elites of America and Western Europe who went into total shock at Trump's victory. They failed to see the writing on the wall: Orbán's "Hungary first" policy, the victory of conservative Law and Justice in Poland, BREXIT, the near win of a rightist in Austria's presidential campaign (a re-vote is expected in December), plus naitonalist gains in France, Germany, Holland and elsewhere and finally the Trump victory. These were all furiously attacked by W. Europe's lefty political, media and academic elites as alleged individual assaults against "liberal" democracy . They failed to see them as part of a growing wave of the future. The lefties will of course try to hang on as long as possible (Schultz hopes to survive by moving down from the EU to regional German politics), but ultimately will get swept away and land in the rubbish heap of history!
jon357 63 | 11,663    
24 Nov 2016  #75

Shouldn't be questioned at all

Historical narratives should always be questioned.

rightist

The backlash against the far right will be spectacular. Such pond life tend to make one step forward and two steps back, paradoxically the opposite of the way the soldiers of the appalling Mussolini (remember what happened to him) used to March.
Observvver    
24 Nov 2016  #76

>"Israel against using term 'Polish death camps'"

Well their first language isn't English either! And notice that theya re doing so out of 'Polish sensitivity;, not their own - perhaos that has something to do with recent trade talks between the two countries.

Instead of trying to force people in another country to change their own language, perhaps PiS should concentrate and learning better English and it usage. For example, take the following:

Lodz ghetto - a ghetto in Lodz or a gehtto created BY the people of Lodz?
Cuban Missile Crisis - the missiles belonged to Cuba, or were placed (by Russians) IN Cuba?
Irish potato famine - a famine created BY the Irish, or happened TO the Irish?
African slavery - slavery BY Africans or OF Africans?
Jewish holocaust - a holocaust created BY jews, or done TO jews?
Armenian genocide - did the Armenians commit the genocide or suffer the genocide?
Polish victims of war - people by BY Poles in the war, or victims of war who were Polish?

Context is very important in English, as is precedent and common usage, and in the above examples there is no ambiguity - everybody knows the holovcaust happened TO the jews, the missiles did not belong TO Cuba, the Africans WERE the slaves and the ghetto was imposed upon Lodz, not BY Lodz. By exactly the same usage, everyone who speaks English natually knows that Polish death camps means nazi camps in Poland, not created BY Poland.

But for a party that has just created an imaginary deity the King of Poland, thinks that Donald Tusk downed the Smolensk plane, and thinks that Bialowieza was planted 200 years ago by people, education and reality don't seem to trouble them too much.
jon357 63 | 11,663    
24 Nov 2016  #77

Instead of trying to force people in another country to change their own language, perhaps PiS should concentrate and learning better English and it usage. For example, take the following:

Agreed absolutely. It's a mix of belligerence and a lack of understanding of the language.
dolnoslask 1 | 997    
24 Nov 2016  #78

Context is very important in English

The English language is of no significance, in Poland.

If the draft passes into law anyone who uses "Polish Death Camps" will face up to 3 years in Jail, I am not sure how enforcible that would be outside Poland, but someone who says or publishes this in Poland (In English or Polish) will face the courts.
jon357 63 | 11,663    
24 Nov 2016  #79

The English language is of no significance

For phrases in English, it is of every significance.
Observvver    
24 Nov 2016  #80

It's a tactic used to engender a victimhood and implication of offence given, that then puts you in a position of power over the ones you're accusing, by forcing them to bend to your will or apologise by setting a linguistic trap for them and watching them fall into it because they hadn't realised that you changed the rules behind their back.

It's a tactic commonly used by lobby groups in order to 'wrong foot' the opposition or establishment, and is what gives 'political correctness' a bad name. Examples can be found in the ever changing labels demanded by activitists from various ethnic group lobbyists - they progressively decide that a label has become offensive and a new one must be used, giving them the power over others by deciding when that happens so that everyone is always just behind the curve.

Language can be an effective political tool, but not when it's another language that you don't understand properly - then you just look stupid and paranoid!
Observvver    
24 Nov 2016  #81

>"The English language is of no significance, in Poland."

Oh really? So how come every academic and engineer in Poland publishes their work in English? Even Polish scientific journals are in English, with only a Polish summary. It's the official language of the EU too, so it does have quite a bit of significance - ahead of any other language except Polish.
dolnoslask 1 | 997    
24 Nov 2016  #82

so it does have quite a bit of significance

But not in any government office you might have to deal with in Poland on a day to day basis, and certainly not in the court system, and definatly not down the corner shop.
Observvver    
24 Nov 2016  #83

The it's quite stupid having such a law that applies to everybody, including that that would not understand if an 'offensive' phrase was used in English, those that would not know the difference between meanings, and those that do know the difference and know that the proposed law translates as "idiotic" in English.
dolnoslask 1 | 997    
24 Nov 2016  #84

would not understand if an 'offensive' phrase was used in English,

Well this is the risk that someone would be taking, if they used the English phrase in Poland, It would be up to the court to decide, I guess we might get an answer once the first case goes to court.

Anyway it may not be passed into law, we will have to wait and see.
Observvver    
24 Nov 2016  #85

>Well this is the risk that someone would be taking, if they used the English phrase in Poland, It would be up to
>the court to decide, I guess we might get an answer once the first case goes to court.

Genuinely fascinated by this. If, as you say, English isn't seen as significant in everyday Polish life, such as in the courts etc., how can a court be qualified to sit in judegment of whether a phrase in English means what they think it means, despite the native speaker saying it doesn't? As a Pole is unlikely to use the phrase in English in Poland, and a British or American is in fact the target of the law, wont the expert witness in fact be the defendant?

How can a prosecutor attack in Polish the meaning of English usage by an English speaker? We all know the Polish and English don't translate directly very well. So how can such a law ever be fair or rational, just because PiS doesn't understand how English is spoken?

Can you imagine the reaction in Poland if the UK govt outlawed a Polish phrase and threatened to imprison Poles for speaking it in Polish just because or poor translation and understanding on the part of the UK? It's insane. It's picking a fight where none existed, so PiS can fuel their policy of 'Poland the Martyr Victim', where only PiS can defend and restore her honour. To anyone who grew up speaking English this makes Poland look like fools.
Lyzko 15 | 2,939    
27 Nov 2016  #86

Anyone hoping to use English in Poland in a serious, legal situation is barking up the wrong tree and is in for a rude awakening:-)
dolnoslask 1 | 997    
27 Nov 2016  #87

Afraid so , If someone start using being english as an excuse it just won't wash here, no way would I try that one in a Polish court.
Lyzko 15 | 2,939    
28 Nov 2016  #88

That's obvious:-)
Observvver    
28 Nov 2016  #89

>Anyone hoping to use English in Poland in a serious, legal situation

My point exactly, and that should go for the prosecutor, judge and PiS too.
How can anyone seriously be prosecuted for the use of an English by people who don't understand its usage, and don't recognise a legal status of the language? If English isn't a valid language in Polish legal setting (which seems fine), then you can't prosecute someone for a crime that hinges on the meaning of English words. If the Polish legal system is 'blind' to English, then where is the crime?
Lyzko 15 | 2,939    
28 Nov 2016  #90

From your mouth in the EU-High Court's ear, Observvver, because if Bruxelles had her way, the whole of Europe would be forced, for commercial purpose, to twist themselves into a pretzel, using a language which is basically foreign to them:-)

Off topic, I know, but I couldn't resist, modsLOL




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