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Norman Davies - the Brit who loves Poland and becomes one of Us


Monia
18 Jul 2011 #211
Harry wrote this :

In 1862 Warsaw was not the capital of independent Poland and Poles did not decide who could and could not live in Warsaw. In 1914 Warsaw was not the capital of independent Poland and Poles did not decide who could and could not live in Warsaw.

Harry you are wrong , just read :

There was then gradually reducing the autonomy of the Polish Kingdom after the suppression of the November Uprising in 1831 and the January Uprising in 1864 until the formal abolition of political and administrative autonomy of the territory in 1867. Still retains many legal and political autonomy (including the Civil Code, the village system, the status of the Jewish population, the status of Polish language ), which differed from the Russian Empire

Begining from the year of 1815 , Poland was not fully independent state , but possessed its own legal system , which was manifested by a different status of Jews among other things , it all started with a creation of Kingdom of Poland in 1815 , after the Vienna Congress .

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kr%C3%B3lestwo_Kongresowe

Your lie is that Jews chose to not live in Warsaw.

But Harry , how would you comment on that ?

After 1572, Jews were allowed to enter Warsaw during conventions of the National Sejm (parliament). Jewish representatives in the Council of Lands were also permitted to visit Warsaw. According to a census in 1765, 2,519 Jews lived in Warsaw. This number increased after Jews were officially allowed to live in the city in 1768. By 1792, the Jewish population nearly tripled to 6,750.

or that :

In 1809, a Jewish quarter was established in the city.Only Jewish bankers, merchants, manufacturers, army suppliers, and doctors were allowed to live there, if they agreed to wear European style clothing and send their children to general schools.

also read this :

In 1816, Jews numbered 15, 600 and, by 1910, the population reached 337,000 (38% of the total population of Warsaw).

You can`t name people liars if they quote well known facts , also taken from reliable sources . Stop Harry with your rhetoric, please , because we ,Polish people , know our history a little better , than you , don`t you think ?
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Jul 2011 #212
Poles are pretty big on history, Harry, Monia is right. However, for the resident Poles, please continue to show and corroborate as Harry also tries to do likewise. He may come across as a troll to you but he asks some decent questions and please don't take sources as golden. Build a case and then you are on solid ground. Don't assume correctness.
Harry
18 Jul 2011 #213
There was then gradually reducing the autonomy of the Polish Kingdom

So you mean that the autonomy of a supposedly independent state was reduced by another party? You clearly don't understand what the word 'independent' means: independent states do not have autonomy, they have independence.

Poland was not fully independent state

States are either independent or they are not. Even you admit that Poland was not independent during the partitions.

But Harry , how would you comment on that ?

I'd point out the words in your quotes "Jews were allowed to enter Warsaw during conventions of the National Sejm" "Jewish representatives in the Council of Lands were also permitted to visit Warsaw." "According to a census in 1765, 2,519 Jews lived in Warsaw." (all of whom were not allowed to live in Warsaw, as the next sentence makes clear). "This number increased after Jews were officially allowed to live in the city in 1768." (so a mere 243 years after being tossed out and just four years before the first partition of Poland, Jews are once again allowed to live in the capital of independent Poland). "Only Jewish bankers, merchants, manufacturers, army suppliers, and doctors were allowed to live there, if they agreed to wear European style clothing" (so most Jews still banned and no Jews given the same rights as gentiles, how very tolerant).

In 1816, Jews numbered 15, 600 and, by 1910

In neither of those years was Poland an independent state. So your facts do nothing to disprove the fact that Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland.

You can`t name people liars if they quote well known facts , also taken from reliable sources .

Agreed, but they don't quote well known facts and when they do lie, I point out how they lie.

we ,Polish people , know our history a little better , than you , don`t you think ?

No, you very clearly do not. If you did, you would know that Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland.
nott 3 | 594
18 Jul 2011 #214
nott: This is not a 'privilege', Harry. This is a privilege without quotes.
Those are not quote marks, they are inverted commas. They are used because I personally do not consider it a privilege for a town to be judenfrei.

You're free to have opinions. Keep distractions away from the thread, though.

nott: Harry: Your lie is that Jews chose to not live in Warsaw.
Quote me. Nothing has gone to Random yet, and just half a page to search.

With pleasure. Here you say "Yes they did." Either your comment refers to my statement that "No they [Jews] did not [live in segregated towns by choice]."

That's it, yes. Kudos for clarification.

, in which case, as shown above, you are clearly lying.

You are delusional. You've shown not a shred of argument against this claim. Nor anybody else have.

Or it refers to my statement that "for the vast majority of the time that Poland was an independent country until 1918 no Jews lived in Warsaw.", in which case, as shown above, you are lying. Now refreshing to see you lying about being caught lying.

Refreshing with what? Careful, boy. Brains do not regenerate easily.

nott: The claim stays. Most of them did.

Most Jews chose to live in segregates cities? So why did gentile Poles feel the need to ban Jews from living in more than 20 cities?

Jesus fkn christ,,, In order to disable the competition, you... Harry. And it was more than 20. Others did not see the necessity. And even those with privileges did not demand creating ghettos.

nott: A typical for you, murky statement suggesting to an unprepared reader that Jews arrived in Warsaw only as late as 1918. Kindly observe my usage of 'insinuated'.

For more than a hundred years before 1918 Poland was not an independent country. No wonder you only link to my statement and do not quote from it.

Geez, Harry, you're a pain:

No they did not. Or perhap you can explain why for the vast majority of the time that Poland was an independent country until 1918 no Jews lived in Warsaw?

Happy now?

nott: Does it constitute 'name calling'? And unprovoked, to boot, in the context?
It you lie, you must expect people to point out that you are a liar. It's not 'name calling', just a statement of pure fact.

If, good choice of keyword. Keep your hypothetical scenarios to yourself. Or at least make a dedicated thread.
Harry
18 Jul 2011 #215
That's it, yes. Kudos for clarification.

So in your opinion Jews chose to live in segregated towns and that is why gentile Poles had to apply for permission to have Jews banned from living in their towns. Perfect logic there.

You are delusional. You've shown not a shred of argument against this claim.

All of the cities applying for permission to have Jews banned from living there actually very much shows that Jews wanted to live in non-segregated towns. If Jews had wanted to only live in segregated towns, there would be no need for gentiles to have them banned from living in 'their' towns. So in fact, as has been shown, there is far more than just a shred of argument against your lie: there is cast iron proof as shown by the actions of gentile Poles.

And even those with privileges did not demand creating ghettos.

Of course they didn't, they had no Jews to be forced to live in ghettos: all of the Jews had already been thrown out of those towns.

If, good choice of keyword.

I used 'if' because you do not actually have to come here and lie, you are perfectly free to tell the truth, although I can see that you don't like to.

Poles are pretty big on history, Harry, Monia is right.

Funny then that some of them get things badly wrong about the history of Poland on such a regular basis.
nott 3 | 594
18 Jul 2011 #216
However, for the resident Poles, please continue to show and corroborate as Harry also tries to do likewise. He may come across as a troll to you but he asks some decent questions

You're wrong, Seanus. He poses some interesting problems to delve in, but most of their entertaining value is in the way he distorts some less known events. After the riddle is solved, he hides it away and comes up with it again after time, not even trying to rephrase it much. A typical example is 'Kristallnacht was triggered by Poles not allowing Polish Jews in after they were expelled from Germany'. I just spotted it somewhere in quite a recent post. Few people remember that this was proved false, and actually few people even followed the arduous path of disproving Harry, I'd say.

He is a troll. I'd love to discuss some obscure fragments of history, regardless if they are glorious or shameful, but with Harry more than half of effort is about fighting his bizarre accusations of lying and avoiding other obnoxious provocations. The very moment he loses ground under his feet, he starts shouting about Polish lies and Polish liars, then you start documenting your documenting of your own and Harry's utterances, and if you persist and actually grind him to dust in the end, the next day he comes back with 'I won, you liar', and next month he repeats his 'interesting question' as if nothing ever happened.

But you know that, don't you? Or maybe you never had enough patience to follow those banters. Wouldn't blame you.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
18 Jul 2011 #217
No they did not.

So why do they ofton segregate themselves in "ghettos" in north London and Manchester and Leeds in the 21st century then Harry if they dont like doing this? Why do observant jews in Israel segregate themselves from ethnic jews then?

See, Im agreeing with M' here so I must be convinced we are right.
Harry
18 Jul 2011 #218
this was proved false

Oh dear, I see that you have found something else to lie about.

with Harry more than half of effort is about fighting his bizarre accusations of lying

If you don't want me pointing out that you are a liar, don't tell lies.

The very moment he loses ground under his feet, he starts shouting about Polish lies and Polish liars

a) I haven't lost even an inch. Nobody has in any way disproved the fact that Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland.

b) I do not shout about Polish liars. I talk about liars regardless of their nationality, the fact that you claim to be a Pole has no impact on your much documented status as a liar. But please do feel free to carry on lying about what I say.
Monia
18 Jul 2011 #219
So you mean that the autonomy of a supposedly independent state was reduced by another party? You clearly don't understand what the word 'independent' means: independent states do not have autonomy, they have independence.

Did my statement regarded Kingdom of Poland concept, no, I only quoted some data and information that Jews lived in Warsaw for centuries.

But you changed the subject and cavilled to the concept of an independence.

You know that Poland was not a fully independent country, but I just wrote about it . Poland had a separate legal system and the status of Jews was also different from that in Russia.

Just admit your mistake .
Harry
18 Jul 2011 #220
But you changed the subject and cavilled to the concept of an independence.

Another lie from you: the bit about independent has been there from the start of the discussion about Jews not being allowed to live in Warsaw for hundreds of years.

Poland had a separate legal system and the status of Jews was also different from that in Russia.

Just admit your mistake .

What mistake? At no time have I stated that Poland did not have a separate legal system or that the status of Jews was not different here than in Russia. My statement is that that Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland. That is not a mistake; it is a fact which is supported by what you have posted in this thread.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Jul 2011 #221
Nott, I enough about mooting to know how to conduct a good debate. I just don't believe arguments are won with defensiveness. They are won by backing up your case to the max.
nott 3 | 594
18 Jul 2011 #222
nott: That's it, yes. Kudos for clarification.
So in your opinion Jews chose to live in segregated towns and that is why gentile Poles had to apply for permission to have Jews banned from living in their towns. Perfect logic there.

It's your logic here, Harry. Sarcasm failed miserably.

nott: You are delusional. You've shown not a shred of argument against this claim.

All of the cities applying for permission to have Jews banned from living there actually very much shows that Jews wanted to live in non-segregated towns.

huh? How banning Jews from the town proves that Jews never preferred to create Jewish quarters in said towns, otherwise knows as ghettos?

Do you know what a shtetl was? Loosely translated as 'Jewish town', like in 'China town'. A settlement of Jews, usually near non-Jewish settlement, or a previous part of it. Often close to gentiles, because Jewish and non-Jewish economies were complementary. Distinct, because Jews preferred to live together, as any fcking minority with strong identity. Your proof is ridiculous. Really, sometimes I don;t know if you're just so persistent in pissing contests, or plain stupid.

If Jews had wanted to only live in segregated towns, there would be no need for gentiles to have them banned from living in 'their' towns.

Jews created their own quarters and settlements all over Poland regardless if there was a town with a privilege, or not. Only few chose to live amongst gentiles, like when running inns or those who couldn't cope in a shtetl, or those who were banished from a ghetto.

And the ban was not only about settlement. Mainly it was about no Jewish trade in the town, that was what counted, and that was what most economical privileges of the period were: dictating who can and who can not. Settlement being just a common sense extension. Jews were allowed to live exactly outside the jurisdiction, in any spacial arrangement they chose, still banned from bringing handełe to the town.

Only about 20% towns in Poland ever were granted the privilege, if I am not mistaken. In others either Jews were absent or few, or created a ghetto or shtetl.

So in fact, as has been shown, there is far more than just a shred of argument against your lie: there is cast iron proof as shown by the actions of gentile Poles.

bollox

nott: If, good choice of keyword.
I used 'if' because you do not actually have to come here and lie, you are perfectly free to tell the truth, although I can see that you don't like to.

I know why you used it.

Mod, what about this 'LIE' thing? Or Harry has some special 'royal edicts' granted.

Everybody has an opinion; and it's OK, as long as the forum rules are followed.
Monia
18 Jul 2011 #223
See, Im agreeing with M' here so I must be convinced we are right.

Does this " M` " refer to me ? Can`t be true . Do you agree with me , why ?

f you persist and actually grind him to dust in the end, the next day he comes back with 'I won, you liar', and next month he repeats his 'interesting question' as if nothing ever happened

That is a perfect description of Harry .

Harry , why can`t you discuss matters, supporting yourself on some factual base and if someone is correct , why can`t you just be flexible and willing to understand simple facts without constant denial .
Des Essientes 7 | 1,291
18 Jul 2011 #224
Do you know what a shtetl was? Loosely translated as 'Jewish town', like in 'China town'. A settlement of Jews, usually near non-Jewish settlement, or a previous part of it. Often close to gentiles

In the documentary Shtetl which examines the history of Bransk it did say that Gentiles had to be granted special permission by the Jewish townsfolk in order to be allowed to live in the settlement's central "downtown" area.
Harry
19 Jul 2011 #225
it is not an opinion is a provocation and harassment

I've shown how each of his lies are lies. If he (and you) so object to people pointing out lies, don't tell lies, simples.
nott 3 | 594
19 Jul 2011 #226
Harry posting about lying liars only, the topic officially resolved. No fckn shred of ground left under feet.
isthatu2 4 | 2,703
19 Jul 2011 #227
Does this " M` " refer to me ? Can`t be true . Do you agree with me , why ?

Because,in my opinion you happen to be right, as Ive tried to point out,even today,in 21st century britain,a country who's last large scale "pogrom" was in the middle ages and that has had a Jewish Prime minister (sort of) that jewish people often choose to live seperatly,in their own communities. It has nothing to do with anyone stopping jews living where they want,quite the opposite,it shows,as in Polands case that there is a level of respect that allows "minorities" to live as and where they please.
Bzibzioh
19 Jul 2011 #228
I've shown how each of his lies are lies.

Nah, you presented, again, how to interpret simple historical facts the most twisted way possible. Good for entertainment value on the internet forum but laughable by any historian.
Harry
19 Jul 2011 #229
No fckn shred of ground left under feet.

But still the fact remains that Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland. Or perhaps you could post something which refutes that fact?

as in Polands case that there is a level of respect that allows "minorities" to live as and where they please.

Now there is. In the past there was not. As is shown by the fact that Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland.
Bzibzioh
19 Jul 2011 #230
Now there is. In the past there was not.

And they decided to change their living arrangement habits from Monday to Tuesday for no reason. Sure, Harry, sure.

As is shown by the fact that Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland.

Warsaw was pronounced the capital of Poland for the first time in 1945. Ergo: you are LYING.
Harry
19 Jul 2011 #231
And they decided to change their living arrangement habits from Monday to Tuesday for no reason. Sure, Harry, sure.

Could you perhaps link to the post in which I said anything like that? The fact remains, despite all your insults, that Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland.
Marynka11 4 | 675
19 Jul 2011 #232
Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital

That's really strange. What year are you talking about? The novel Lalka by Prus shows Warsaw and the Jewish situation in Warsaw in the beginning of 20th century or the end of the 19th, I'm not sure, and it shows that the poor Jews were concentrated in Praga, but rich and influential ones were mingling.
Bzibzioh
19 Jul 2011 #233
Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland.

Why you are lying, Harry? Jews were allowed to live in the city of Warsaw all the time that city was the capital of Poland.

gotha :)
nott 3 | 594
19 Jul 2011 #234
Warsaw was pronounced the capital of Poland for the first time in 1945. Ergo: you are LYING.

:)

But still the fact remains that Jews were. ERGO.... :)
Harry
19 Jul 2011 #235
Warsaw was pronounced the capital of Poland for the first time in 1945.

Who to believe? A Canadian who helps keep Crown Royal in business or the official website of the Capital City of Warsaw? Well, that website says here:

In 1596 King Zygmunt III Waza decided to move the capital of Poland from Cracow to Warsaw.

um.warszawa.pl/en/articles/1596

and here:

ing Władysław IV Waza initiated the building of the monument - King Zygmunt III Waza's Column at the very center of the Castle Square to honor the king who moved the capital of Poland to Warsaw.

um.warszawa.pl/en/articles/1643

Who could be right?!

But still the fact remains that Jews were.

Oh dear old man, either the Capital City of Warsaw is lying or you and a remarkably well preserved Canadian are. I do wonder which it could be.

That's really strange.

Not really: if you fail to cut my statement in two, it is clear that I'm telling the truth.
Bzibzioh
19 Jul 2011 #236
Who to believe? A Canadian who helps keep Crown Royal in business or the official website of the Capital City of Warsaw?

First sign of losing the ground under your feet: going to personal insults :)))

You see, Harry, you only think you know things because you read about them on wiki, but you have no idea how to interpret them correctly.

In 1596 King Zygmunt III Waza decided to move the capital of Poland from Cracow to Warsaw.

He didn't move the capital. After the Wawel Castle fire and one wing burned down, he decided to move his home, temporarily at first, to Warsaw. But all the legislature and government stayed in Kraków. With time Warsaw become unofficial capital of Poland. Officially it was declared for the first time in 1945.

if you fail to cut my statement in two, it is clear that I'm telling the truth.

Nope. You are still lying.
Marynka11 4 | 675
19 Jul 2011 #237
Not really: if you fail to cut my statement in two, it is clear that I'm telling the truth.

Oh the usual, little petty attacks and no logic.

Jews were not allowed to live in the city of Warsaw for the majority of the time that the city was the capital of pre-1918 independent Poland.

Jews were allowed to live legally in Warsaw since 1768. The third partition was in 1795 and if you look that way, yes you are right, they were not allowed to live in Warsaw for a long time in independent Poland. Is that what you are trying to say?
Bzibzioh
19 Jul 2011 #238
Gosh, who should we believe?!

oh, that's simple: You are always going to believe what is more convenient for you :)

the Capital City of Warsaw's official website.

And, of course this site would never have an interest to promote their city :)

But seriously: if it's in English, they would say something like that for simplicity reason.

pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stolica_Polski
"Pierwszą konstytucją, w której wymieniono stolicę Polski, była Konstytucja Polskiej Rzeczypospolitej Ludowej z 22 lipca 1952 roku."
The first constitution mentioning the capital of Poland was the 1952 constitution.

You see: I was lying. It was not 1945 but 1952.

"Zygmunt III Waza rozpoczął w 1596 r. proces wyjazdu dworu królewskiego do Warszawy, jako że była ona bliższa interesującym go sprawom szwedzkim, a również dlatego, iż w 1595 r. miał miejsce pożar na Wawelu zaprószony podczas eksperymentu alchemicznego w obecności króla[5]. Proces przenoszenia dworu trwał do 25 maja 1609. Kraków pozostałjednakże oficjalną stolicą Rzeczypospolitej, a fakt ów był bezsporny dla współczesnych tamtym czasom; tam też koronowali się kolejni władcy (z wyjątkiem Stanisława Leszczyńskiego i Stanisława Augusta Poniatowskiego). Warszawa była oficjalnie nazywana "Miasto Rezydencjonalne Jego Królewskiej Mości."

Do you need a translation?

Don't worry, Harry: I'm not counting on you to admit a mistake anyway.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
19 Jul 2011 #239
Kraków pozostał jednakże oficjalną stolicą Rzeczypospolitej

The capital is the city where the parliament is located:

...a capital is almost always a city which physically encompasses the offices and meeting places of the seat of governmentand is usually fixed by law or by the constitution.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Capital_city

So, where was Sejm located?
The Constitution of the 3rd May was adopted in Warsaw in 1791. The parliament was there before too. That the king liked to spend more time elsewhere is not an indicator of a capital, moreover with liberum veto handy - everyone was a semi-king anyway.

The first constitution mentioning the capital of Poland was the 1952 constitution.

English became recently an official language of the US, if I recall correctly. So, what language was spoken before in the USA? French? The constitution only finalized was wasn't that necessary or thought of before. The older constitutions concentrated predominantly on the rights of the citizens than on the administrative issues.

Warszawa była oficjalnie nazywana "Miasto Rezydencjonalne Jego Królewskiej Mości."

Exactly, this is what it was - but not a capital.
Monia
19 Jul 2011 #240
The Constitution of the 3rd May was adopted in Warsaw in 1791.

Thats right , but it was still unofficial capital , that`s your misunderstanding of Polish history , you can`t know it just by reading some wiki at random.

About the facts , if you say something let it be compatible with facts . You can`t formulate comments because it is convenient for you .

Then, the actual capital city of the city was not confirmed by any act. Warsaw was not officially the capital and to the fall in 1795

I translated a part just for your need - pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Historia_Warszawy

And now I have got something nice to read , just for you , Harry ; after reading this , you will sink under tonnes of utter rubbish you have been blabbering for the last few days.

Nice reading Harry ;)

source :

yivoinstitute.org/downloads/Warsaw.pdf
jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/vjw/Warsaw.html

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