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Norman Davies - the Brit who loves Poland and becomes one of Us


sobieski 107 | 2,128
17 Aug 2010 #151
Well... from his favourite athor P.I. Rachkovsky.
I bet he has them leather-bound in his bookcase at home - and believes every word of them
zetigrek
17 Aug 2010 #152
Well... from his favourite athor P.I. Rachkovsky.

PROTOKO£Y MĘDRCÓW SYJONU! xDDDDDDDD

Yeah, certainly ;)
sobieski 107 | 2,128
18 Aug 2010 #153
I am still waiting which "authors" IS likes.
zetigrek
18 Aug 2010 #154
It seems he boycots you... or doesn't read anything.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
18 Aug 2010 #155
Well, ploughing through ND takes some time. I usually read it for entertainment in the supermarket when waiting before I have to pay :)
Seanus 15 | 19,706
18 Aug 2010 #156
He did downplay the anti-Semitic sentiments as stirred up by the Endecja but I don't want to elaborate on this. We all know that Dmowski was a bit of a rat. I'd like to see a debate between him and Irving.
z_darius 14 | 3,968
19 Aug 2010 #157
Worldwide he is far less respected and his approach to history is why he wasn't able to gain tenure at Stanford. He took Stanford to court about that "discrimination" and promptly saw the case tossed straight out by both the court of first instance and the appeals court.

It is remarkable how you will go into details when that suits you, and omit them for the same reason.

"Worldwide far less respected"? By that you mean that Stanford voted 12 to 11 against him? And that had nothing to do with respect, but everything to do with with one, much less respected, Lucy S. Dawidowicz. The decision by Stanford is still considered controversial, i.e limiting freedom of research and speech.

And Davies's guilt? Simple. "they felt Davies minimized historic anti- Semitism in Poland and tended to blame Polish Jews for their fate in the Holocaust.". They didn't need a proof or academic debate. Their feelings were good enough within their academic "standards". So much for the "respected" school.

And Harry, of all people, you describing someone as "selective" is really juicy :)
Darun 1 | 55
19 Aug 2010 #158
Norman Davies is actually very well known in the circles of interest, and is considered one of the best if not the best historian who wrote about Poland.

I've read 2 of his books and I like his dedication for details and historical truth (to the best approach of the concept). Plus, as any outside historian, he offers a somewhat objectivity much needed when assesing a country's history.

I think that, when you treat and write about things of that magnitude, relating to the WWs and a few others, there is no way of not being controversial, in its whole general approach it is a subject that raises voices and question marks from all over the world, to please them all it simply isn't any way.
zetigrek
19 Aug 2010 #159
And that had nothing to do with respect, but everything to do with with one, much less respected, Lucy S. Dawidowicz. The decision by Stanford is still considered controversial, i.e limiting freedom of research and speech.

Lucy Dawidowicz

She accused the British historian Norman Davies of seeking to whitewash Polish antisemitism and of being an anti-Semite himself.[16] During the same period, Dawidowicz denounced the work of the philosopher Ernst Nolte, whom she accused of seeking to justify the Holocaust. In her The War Against the Jews, 1933-1945, she writes that antisemitism has had a long history within Christianity.[17] In her opinion, the line of "antisemitic descent" from Martin Luther to Adolf Hitler was "easy to draw." She wrote that Hitler and Luther were both obsessed by the "demonologized universe" inhabited by Jews [...]

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lucy_S._Dawidowicz

I still don't who's right in this argument. But leave it.

I've read 2 of his books and I like his dedication for details

Actually even in his bio note on his own page there is written that he is not dedicated to the details but it's not so much importannt due to his good writting style:

Wielu polskich historyków (może trochę z zawiści, ale czasem zasadnie) żywi o to pretensje do Daviesa. W książce skupiają się zalety i wady całej późniejszej twórczości profesora: wspaniały, przemawiający do czytelnika styl, a zarazem pewna nonszalancja wobec dat i faktów. Inni historycy nie uważają jednak, by potknięcia, choćby dla fachowca nieznośne, obniżały wartość stworzonych przez niego wielkich historycznych obrazów dziejów Polski i Europy. Sam Davies przyznaje, że przy takim ogromie materiału, są one nie do uniknięcia, ale ważne jest dla niego przede wszystkim ogólne przesłanie jego dzieł, jak też ich dostępność dla przeciętnego, zainteresowanego historią czytelnika.

davies.pl/e_rjjs_tedyprzeszlinormanowie.php
Darun 1 | 55
19 Aug 2010 #160
Actually even in his bio note on his own page there is written that he is not dedicated to the details but it's not so much importannt due to his good writting style:

Interesting, that's not what the books reflect, at least in comparison to many others. But I guess there's a different level of perception of the detail as an aspect, from a simple reader's point of view - such as mine, or from an experienced researcher's point of view.
zetigrek
19 Aug 2010 #161
But I guess there's a different level of perception of the detail as an aspect, from a simple reader's point of view - such as mine, or from an experienced researcher's point of view.

Yes the quote in polish I've posted exacactly means what you've just said.
Darun 1 | 55
19 Aug 2010 #162
Aahh... sorry about that, I don't know Polish (yet), hopefully I'll pick some when in Warsaw.
Harry
19 Aug 2010 #163
Worldwide far less respected"? By that you mean that Stanford voted 12 to 11 against him?

That would be an example. Try to find a group of 23 Poles the majority of whom think Davies isn't up to scratch. You can't. So he is less respected internationally.

that had nothing to do with respect, but everything to do with with one, much less respected, Lucy S. Dawidowicz.

Actually Dawidowicz pointing out the problems with Davies' work was far from the "everything" you claim: "Dawidowicz’s criticism of Davies’ historical treatment of the Holocaust was cited as a factor in a controversy at Stanford University in which Davies was denied a tenured faculty position for alleged "scientific flaws". "

And Davies's guilt? Simple. "they felt Davies minimized historic anti- Semitism in Poland and tended to blame Polish Jews for their fate in the Holocaust.". They didn't need a proof or academic debate. Their feelings were good enough within their academic "standards". So much for the "respected" school.

As stated above, the real reason was scientific flaws in Davies' work. But don't let facts get in the way of your lies.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
19 Aug 2010 #164
Poles love Davies as he tells them all they want to hear. The truth of course is much different than what Davies writes, but that hasn't bothered him to horny-up Poland and Poles. The fact that he indeed denies the ever present anti semitism within Polish society should say enough.

@sobieski: the protocols of the elderly of zion are seriously embraced still in certain ranks and I suspect some on here believe them to the full. Ridiculous as it may seem, but then again, we're talking to ppl who actually think Hitler was a left-winger, so that shouldn't surprise anybody at all :)

And you were right - Gross' book about the Soviet invasion of Poland puts all the ppl who called him a liar to deep shame. Gross is definitively a much better and more honest historian than Davies. I just read sb mention that Davies uses historical truth. That nearly made me fall off my chair for laughing. And I cannot afford to fall off my chair laughing as I am expecting high guests at the office and lying on the ground laughing would not look so good, wouldn't it? :)

>^..^<

M-G (they are delayed for an hour though)
zetigrek
19 Aug 2010 #165
M-G do you know in person someone who was persecuted in pre-war Poland? I don't suggest anything by that question... Just my grandmother if she was saying something about Jews she never said anything that could suggest Jews were persecuted in any way in Poland.
convex 20 | 3,978
19 Aug 2010 #166
There weren't all that many pre-war Jews left to personally know...

Anyway, check out how popular Endecja, and their platform, was before the war.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
19 Aug 2010 #167
In the 4 years preceding the war they may not have been prosecuted although there are some reports of Jewish ppl getting killed, but that takes too much time to explain and that's not what I have at the moment. But life was made not that pleasant for them before the war and after the war they were prosecuted.

You don't need to know anybody personally - there is footage, witnessreports and images. One slight example of "knowing" anybody is what I told earlier: I have here a Polish guy in the office who told me, when discussing this, that he always found it strange that his grandmother was always picking out the Jews when watching television. One of my Polish ex-gf's told me once that her grandmother didn't like the Jews.

But about that "first-hand" history you keep hammering on: I also don't know anybody personally who lived during the Napoleontic occupation of NL, yet I know that it happened.

Anyway, got to hurry now.

>^..^<

M-G (hurry)
zetigrek
19 Aug 2010 #168
One of my Polish ex-gf's told me once that her grandmother didn't like the Jews.

Well if some Jews didn't like Poles then no wonder they weren't liked by Poles. I've already told you a story about a rabbi who did not let his kids to play with polish kids just because they were "goys"...

If there were some dislikes between Poles and Jews I just don't believe that they were one-side inspired.
I'm more to believe that it was more like it is in real life where every case is an exeption. Some ppl didn't like Jew and have various reasons for that, some Jews didn't like Poles and have various reasons for that, some Poles liked Jews, some Jews liked Poles, some were neutral to each other... but still I don't think that:

But life was made not that pleasant for them before the war

...sorry but I just don't believe in that.

Anyway, check out how popular Endecja, and their platform, was before the war.

Oh it's like saying oh, check out how Liga Polskich Rodzin was popular few years ago.
Bzibzioh
19 Aug 2010 #169
Any historian who would step out of official line (Jews were only good and noble because they suffered in the Holocaust), even the Jewish one, is shot down and nobody is shy to use the 'anti-Semite' or 'Holocaust denier' moniker pretty fast. Reminding Jews that although they suffered immensely, some of them were not that honorable at all is not the healthiest hobby if you know what's good for you. So "whitewashing Polish antisemitism" will not be allowed.

Check out this guy and comments like "Keep contributing to anti-Semitism there's not enough" tell it all.
ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3342999,00.html

Poles love Davies as he tells them all they want to hear.

That's BS. He's plenty critical to the point that some Poles are arguing that he's anti-Polish.
MareGaea 29 | 2,752
19 Aug 2010 #170
a rabbi

Yes I remember that. But where did that story come from? From a Pole? And besides, if it's true, then it's still only ONE individual - hardly enough cause to hate an entire ppl, eh?

...sorry but I just don't believe in that.

Believe what you want, there is evidence to claim otherwise. Just one: ghettobenches where the Jewish students had to sit seperately in a corner of the lecturing room? I wouldn't call that freedom of movement.

Any historian who would step out of official line.

And when you're a Polish historian who dares hinting that the Poles might be anti semitic, you get burned down and even death threats, court cases and the like. Ask Gross how that feels to write against the spirit of denial that blows through certain Polish ranks. And there are more. Nice example of how honourable Poles are towards ppl who disagree with their accepted myths. Btw, all those Gross-slanderers are put to deep shame by his new book about the Soviet invasion of Poland.

Check out this guy

Ah, the STALIN JEWS again! This link has been posted about 150.000 times so far as "proof". Proof of what? That some Jews joined the Communist ranks? So what? There were Russians and Poles who joined those ranks too. What I always wonder about is why it's been taken so harshly on Jews that joined the Communist ranks, when I hear nothing about the Poles, Russians, etc who joined their ranks? And besides, only ONE guy saying sth about it in a column is hardly any counter-weight, isn't it?

He's plenty critical to the point that some Poles are arguing that he's anti-Polish.

Pls give examples. And those Poles that say he is anti-Polish, would probably say that Geese are anti Polish for flying over Russia before entering Polish airspace. Or if their car doesn't start, it's probably anti Polish too :)

>^..^<

M-G (waiting, waiting, waiting - darn Americans, never on time)
convex 20 | 3,978
19 Aug 2010 #171
Oh it's like saying oh, check out how Liga Polskich Rodzin was popular few years ago.

I don't ever recall LPR and Herman Munster taking any sizable portion of the vote...
Harry
19 Aug 2010 #172
sorry but I just don't believe in that.

You need to check what the trigger for Kristalnacht was: Poles were denied entry to their own country pre-WWII just because they were Jewish.
zetigrek
19 Aug 2010 #173
Yes I remember that. But where did that story come from? From a Pole?

From a Polish women who wasn't an antisemite. It's not only one example there are pretty lots of stories which suggest that some Jews were scornful towards Poles.

Actually stories told by ppl are also some historical evidence, aren't they? That's why I say if you didn't live in those times you can't tell how it really was. You can't tell 100% who has right.
Ironside 50 | 10,910
19 Aug 2010 #174
Lucy Dawidowicz another obscure idiot and Zionist (Zionist as in Jewish Nationalist).
Well, in 1938 she went from New York to Poland to work in Yiddish Scientific Institute, then in 1939 she goes back to States, and then she dare to accuse (?) Davies of whitewashing Poles as they are such terrible anti-semites! Calling kettle black ?

es - I did read Neighbours. Gross is indeed a bit over the top at times, but he gives a fair overview of things and he is a brave man as well, imo.

don't say, all that money and publicity - terrible and dangerous!

Proof of what? That some Jews joined the Communist ranks? So what? There were Russians and Poles who joined those ranks too. What I always wonder about is why it's been taken so harshly on Jews that joined the Communist ranks, when I hear nothing about the Poles, Russians, etc who joined their ranks?

You hear nothing? Well, because nobody deny that they joined Communist ranks - they were traitors.
Proof of the fact that Jews were not always victims but perpetrators also, and if you'll find few Poles that killed Jews(not necessary because their were Jews) the same can be said about Jews.

So, when you said that attitude of a few Jews cannot be generalised as a attitude of all Jews (or majority) the same could be said about Poles.

[zetigrek]From a Polish women who wasn't an antisemite[/quote]
You see Poles are not telling the truth, you would need an Jewish witness to be taken seriously.
You better ask for a definition of anti-semite!
I-S (There was an old woman,who lived in a shoe.The place was disgusting and smelled like pee-eww!)
Harry
19 Aug 2010 #175
if you'll find few Poles that killed Jews(not necessary because their were Jews) the same can be said about Jews.

Yes, the Jews and their famous pogroms during which they killed lots of Catholic Poles. Oh, hang on a minute, have I got that the wrong way round?
Ironside 50 | 10,910
19 Aug 2010 #176
have I got that the wrong way round?

No, you got it wrong and you did it on purpose, so if you are not willing to contribute anything sensible - spread on thick your nonsense !

I-S( When you find yourself,inside a snake pit,you can not just be naive to be bitten and even swallowed by another snake,you become a snake yourself and bite as many as you can.This is the law of PF forum!)

sobieski
Tom Holland Millennium: The End of the World and the Forging of Christendom
sobieski 107 | 2,128
19 Aug 2010 #177
Ironside
Persian Fire by Tom Holland I have at home.
sobieski 107 | 2,128
19 Aug 2010 #179
There is an intruiging essay written by Tom Holland in "What If". In this case what would have happened if the Persians would have destroyed the Greek fleet at Salamis. Very well written.
Trevek 26 | 1,702
19 Aug 2010 #180
But if Poland can invoke the lack of mobilisation argument, Britain can too to an extent. They weren't sure of Hitler's exact plans.

I have a copy of the Blue Book issued by British government, containing correspondence between germany, Poland and Britain. At one point the British ambassador asked the Polish administrator of Gdansk why he didn't seem bothered by the obvious German military build up in Gdansk and the arrival of several detatchments of wehrmacht and waffen SS.

The gentleman allegedly replied, "It takes more than a few tourists to win a war".

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