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Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage...


southern 75 | 7,096
23 Dec 2010 #181
But I won't be tabpted to break any laws of the country. Most are standard anyway.

Respect the ukrainian law and never bribe the locals.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Dec 2010 #182
I-S, let's say that Vilnius was a part of Poland at the moment. You'd still have to travel there anyway if you were from, let's say, Poznań. Besides, they did preserve a lot of Polish elements. Have you been there? I was there in Aug 2009 and they really honour Mickiewicz and Słowacki. Had I looked closer, I dare say that Piłsudski would have gotten a mention. In fact, I think he did at the cemetery I was at. All 3 Poles had a healthy appreciation and respect for Lithuania and Lithuanians have taken stock of that and tributed them admirably. Don't let the current feud blight your sense of perspective on historical aspects.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
23 Dec 2010 #183
Besides, they did preserve a lot of Polish elements.

Given that more or less half of pre-1939 structures of Wilno are built by Poles it'd be hard to tear down several districts worth of the city.

I was there in Aug 2009 and they really honour Mickiewicz and Słowacki.

Mainly because they claim Mickiewicz and Słowacki are Lithuanians, ethnic Poles born on Lithuanian soil get to be "honored" by hijacking them? We got a different definition of honoring someone then.

I dare say that Piłsudski would have gotten a mention.

You're kidding right? Lithuanians hate Piłsudski with a passion. he was the guy who gave the green light for invasion of their capital.

To be honest though i can understand Lithuanians to some degree, they did ask for trouble supporting Soviet Russia in 1919 but taking away their capital is big thing.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Dec 2010 #184
The Albos managed to destroy Serbia's Jerusalem so anything is possible when tensions rise.

Wasn't it Mickiewicz himself who wrote 'my beloved Lithuania'? I seem to recall that on the Pan Tadeusz bottle :) Why would they claim they are Lithuanian, Sok? Just think about that.

For sure but Piłsudski was still respected for his heroic stance against the Russians.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,342
23 Dec 2010 #185
About the likes and dislikes in Europe as The Economists sees it...funny little vid: economist/blogs/multimedia/2010/12/europe_inside_story
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
23 Dec 2010 #186
Wasn't it Mickiewicz himself who wrote 'my beloved Lithuania'?

Yes because it was his beloved Lithuania in the same manner as Lower Silesia is my beloved Voivodship, there's what? A hundred instances in which he calls Poland his motherland? Probably more.

Kopernik had a german mother and a polish father so there's an argument there but this guy had both polish parents and was born in Lithuania like nearly a milion other Poles who moved there, he spoke polish, he wrote polish so?

Why would they claim they are Lithuanian, Sok? Just think about that.

Chauvinism?

For sure but Piłsudski was still respected for his heroic stance against the Russians.

Sean Piłsudski was The guy who ordered a polish army into the Lithuanian capital to claim it for Poland, Lithuanians hate him, a lot.

Also what stand? Lithuanians were pro soviet in the 1918-20 period.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Dec 2010 #187
I moved to Poland but speak and write in Polish? So? ;) ;) Copernicus didn't only write in Polish but he is considered to have been Polish.

Chauvinism? Possibly!

Well, you know the history better than I do but wasn't it just a stopgap measure on a temporary basis? I thought that it was a short-term, strategic move.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
23 Dec 2010 #188
Were your parents polish? Mickiewicz' were.

Copernicus didn't only write in Polish but he is considered to have been Polish also the point of his father being polish or not is not certain.

No there is no solid proof that he wrote in Polish, he had to due to his job but no evidence survived.

Well, you know the history better than I do but wasn't it just a stopgap measure on a temporary basis? I thought that it was a short-term, strategic move.

The problem with Lithuania is that when it allied itself with Poland being something along the lines of 1/10th of Polands population and 200 years behind on every level it got dominated, thats why their capital became full of Poles etc.

Thats part of the reason relations are sour, thats also part of the reason the great polish writers get hijacked, they dont like Poles but they do like the best of our literature and both men were born on Lithuanian soil so they're Lithuanians obviously!

You know who's the greatest lithuanian hero? Janusz Radziwiłł, possibly the single greatest traitor after Catherine the Greats doorstop aka our king.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
23 Dec 2010 #189
Nah, Scottish (father) and Scottish/Irish (mother).

I think there was evidence of his early writings having been in Polish. This would have been encouraged as he was born into Torun just 7 years after the transition from Thorn.

Ach, they have to take the bad with the good, They don't seem to be able to do that.
Ironside 51 | 11,337
24 Dec 2010 #190
And you are an embarassment

Really, because I have been expressing constant and well thought over opinion on the certain subject ? You can disagree I grant you that but calling me all those derogatory names, only because you think that you are right -whereas in reality your argumentation even on ethical ground is shaky - I call it childish or retardation!

However you are embarrassment for your constant usage of filthy and derogatory language, for your rants, and for your attempts to shock others or anti-PC humor - all on the teenager level.

Even if you are defending Poland and sometimes score some points you ruin everything by your performance of a mentally unbalanced skunk - some may have that impression after reading one of your rants!

Clearly you are mentally unstable with clouded judgment and that impression prevails unfortunately if someone bothers to read your posts.

I-S, let's say that Vilnius was a part of Poland at the moment.

I don't have a problem with Wilno being part of Lithuania as long they treat local Poles right.
I think that is not much to ask considering everything, unfortunately nowadays Lithuanians are a fascist scum and nobody cares about it!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 Dec 2010 #191
I think there was evidence of his early writings having been in Polish.

Inconclusive, the problem with the discussion is that at the time the official administrative language of Poland was Latin.

This would have been encouraged as he was born into Torun just 7 years after the transition from Thorn.

Most Poles wrote in Latin, Latin was the administrative and legal language, Polish was at the time English of central and eastern Europe aka a business language so most documents in it were not considered worthy of writing down.

Ach, they have to take the bad with the good, They don't seem to be able to do that.

None of us are really, they can hijack whatever the heck they want, my only bone with them is that they mistreat Poles.
Seanus 15 | 19,706
24 Dec 2010 #192
The language in which most of his writings were, yes :) However, it wouldn't make much sense not to follow the change from Thorn to Torun with some writing in Polish.

Copernicus wasn't an administrator or a lawyer ;) ;)

I agree but as you said before, times change. Negotiation is the best hope but proper negotiation and not those that don't want to get to the heart of the matter.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
24 Dec 2010 #193
Copernicus wasn't an administrator or a lawyer ;) ;)

Actually Sean he was, for quite a bit of his life he was administrating lands and property, he was primarily an engineer, military commander and an economist, astronomy was his hobby.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
24 Dec 2010 #194
About the likes and dislikes in Europe as The Economists sees it...funny little vid:

Nice video BratwurstBoy Germany and Poland best friends? I thought Germans were unhappy with Angela Merkel and Guido Westerwelle choosing to improve relations with Poland over France.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
24 Dec 2010 #195
Oh! Should I take this as affront?

You can take how and wherever you feel like it. Suit yourself.

We have millennium history beginning in the Kievan Rus, while you have only two decades of imagined independence behind your back.

What does Russia have from Kievan Rus'? The second half of its glorious name? Kievan Rus was always associated with Kiev, not some boggy village Moscow built by Mongols in 13th century. Two decades is a history of your sorry a*se. We have a long history and something to look back into. Russian history is a story of destruction, not creation. And it has nothing to do with Kievan Rus, except a stolen name to look better and more important. Here are a few words said by some known Russian writers about Russian nation which you might know already:

" Народ ,который блуждает по Европе и ищет что можно разрушить, уничтожить только ради развлечения”.( Ф.Достоевский)
Translation: "Nation which wanders around Europe and searches for what to destroy, to annihilate just for the sake of entertainment" by F. Dostoyevsky

"Ох, как тяжко жить в России, в этом смердючем центре физического и морального разврата, подлости, вранья и злодейства". Аксаков
Translation: "Oh how it is difficult to live in Russia, in that stenching center of physical and moral debauchery, baseness, lies and malfaisance" by Aksakov

" Не народ ,а скотина, хам, дикая орда, душегубов и злодеев.” (М.Булгаков)
Translation: "It's not a nation, but a cattle, scoundrel, wild horde of murderers and thieves" by M. Bulgakov
And in regards to the roots of Russians the same very Dostoyevsky said the following:
"Поскребите русского и вы увидите татарина »
Translation: "Scratch a Russian and you will see a Tatar".
This is what you are and not a bit of Kievan Rus in your veins. Your roots are in Mongolia. You want to invent history for your ziemlianka? - steal it from Mongols - Ghengis Khan, Batyj - known people and they are your ancestors, Kostya.
Torq
24 Dec 2010 #196
Nice video BratwurstBoy Germany and Poland best friends?

If you watch the video again (2:12-2:20), you will notice that the best friend of Poland
is (and always have been) Hungary, as the author of the video can see as clearly as
Hungarian and Polish nations have seen for over 1000 years now.

Lengyel, magyar - két jó barát, együtt harcol, s issza borát!
Polak, Węgier, dwa bratanki, i do szabli, i do szklanki!

Recent genetic research[3] prove that this pledge has a factual basis. Both Polish and
Hungarian populations have the highest frequency of the R1a Y gene in Europe.
Two people will have the same Y chromosome marker only if they originated from the same
ancestor.
The mutation originated someplace 10,000 years ago. In evolutionary terms, it is
one of the youngest mutations in the Y chromosome genealogical tree.

Long live the Eternal Polish-Hungarian Friendship!
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,342
24 Dec 2010 #197
If you watch the video again (2:12-2:20), you will notice that the best friend of Poland is (and always have been) Hungary.

My christmas gift to you Torqi!

:):):)
Torq
24 Dec 2010 #198
Thank you very much, BB! Merry Christmas to you too, friend.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
24 Dec 2010 #199
Lengyel, magyar – két jó barát, együtt harcol, s issza borát!
Polak, Węgier, dwa bratanki, i do szabli, i do szklanki!

It's nice to see such respect for one another even at a football match.
David_18 68 | 982
24 Dec 2010 #200
So, would you be prepared to give all those Jewish families their property back and displace Poles who acquired the new title deeds?

Yes.

The face of Lviv has been changed over the years and, now being part of Ukraine, the Ukrainians have taken away a large part of the Catholic element.

I wonder why....

It really doesn't matter what David says as he has no power either way.

NO ******************* Boy]Would you give them back for Lwow???[/quote]
For Lwow and everything else that were stolen.

He has the same power as Crowie here on this board... :)

Ah yea and you got the power to change the politics right? Give me a break.... ;)

if you're missing home, boys, do what we do - go to court and apply for return of private property. if refused - buy it like a normal person.

Can't do business with criminals...

they never contributed, created or built anything noteworthy, they're a bunch of unwashed peasants but they're still people.

Word.

But those Poles crying about Lwów should concentrate on building Polish cities rather than crying about what they've lost.

Easy to say from an neutral angle you jerk! ;)

Respect the ukrainian law and never bribe the locals.

Bribing is a law in Ukraine...

I-S, let's say that Vilnius was a part of Poland at the moment. You'd still have to travel there anyway if you were from, let's say, Poznań. Besides, they did preserve a lot of Polish elements.

So if England annex Scotland and throw out all the scots from there and place you in ireland you would still be happy to visit Edinburgh since its still scottish in the historical sence?
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
24 Dec 2010 #201
Yes.

Really? Any idea just how much property that involves? It would certainly bankrupt Poland in an instant.

Easy to say from an neutral angle you jerk! ;)

Poland can just about pay the bills at present and no more. The country isn't in crisis, but it's not far away from it - just how do you propose Poland paying for Western Ukraine?

Germany has struggled to bring East Germany up to West German standards - what hope does Poland have?

Dream on, sunshine.
David_18 68 | 982
24 Dec 2010 #202
Really? Any idea just how much property that involves? It would certainly bankrupt Poland in an instant.

About 50 bilj $. Something that Germany and Russia can pay for in my opinion.

Germany has struggled to bring East Germany up to West German standards - what hope does Poland have?

Atleast the people there will have it better then they would with Ukraine.

Dream on, sunshine.

Merry Christmas to you too;)
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
24 Dec 2010 #203
About 50 bilj $. Something that Germany and Russia can pay for in my opinion.

Now you really are living in dreamland.

Germany gives enough to Poland. Oh, and what are you going to do with all the resentful Ukrainians who will resist being incorporated into Poland?

Atleast the people there will have it better then they would with Ukraine

I suspect most Ukrainians would rather be desperately poor than be part of Poland.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
24 Dec 2010 #204
Oh, and what are you going to do with all the resentful Ukrainians

It just beats me, delphi, why some Poles like to stir the s*it instead of making one's own country some respectful power in the region. By constantly writing their immature attacks against Lithuanians and Ukrainians, they turn themselves into a soccer ball between the West and Russian Federation. I think that it is this dream of being dominant or something. Poland can be anything but that because of the primitive mentality of a fukced up kid. I hope time will come when that chunk of Polish society which draws its country down will finally get out of the sand-box and grow up.
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
24 Dec 2010 #205
It just beats me, delphi, why some Poles like to stir the s*it instead of making one's own country some respectful power in the region.

Don't you know Nathan that a country like Poland with it's geopolitical location can't be neutral, and if a nation doesn't dominate it gets dominated. Poland as one of the largest counties in the region naturally wants to dominate weaker, poorer nations. You think it will let some Czechs for example, who think highly of themselves and their culture dominate or influence a nation 4 times larger.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
24 Dec 2010 #206
and if a nation doesn't dominate it gets dominated.

Sorry, but this is what some Americans might think. Many people around the world see it differently. You wanted to be a dominating power by attacking militarily weak Iraq and look at yourself now - US is sliding into the grinder and is not respected as it was before. Here is a good example of how senseless domination over another might be a huge mistake.

Poland as one of the largest counties in the region naturally wants to dominate weaker, poorer nations.

Luckily, Polish government seems more intelligent than that. They know how it all end up. But if you mean economy (the topic seems to be about military), then, of course, it is a competition and the better is on the market.

You think it will let some Czechs for example, who think highly of themselves and their culture dominate or influence a nation 4 times larger.

PennBoy, are Czechs even trying to dominate Poland? Regarding thinking high of themselves and their culture I doubt that anyone can beat Polish. But it is Ok and it is totally normal to feel proud towards one's culture etc. Nevertheless, it doesn't mean to **** off all the neighbors around by playing in dominance. Look at big boys: Germany cuddles Russian Federation, the Great Britain and France are friends more than ever in history. Poland follows the same suit. The only exception are hotheads from PF who still fall asleep reading DonQuixot stories and sucking a thumb (hopefully);). If you think that Poland can dominate any of its neighbors - then you are highly mistaken. The best bet would be to cuddle together in love and harmony, otherwise: a soccer ball between the West and RF :)
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
24 Dec 2010 #207
Sorry, but this is what some Americans might think. Many people around the world see it differently. You wanted to be a dominating power by attacking militarily weak Iraq and look at yourself now

That wasn't Poland's fault

Regarding thinking high of themselves and their culture I doubt that anyone can beat Polish. But it is Ok and it is totally normal to feel proud towards one's culture

Poles don't think they're better than anybody, it's just that Poles constantly have to defend ourselves and correct others who spread lies about us and our country. Poles want people to see us how we really are not what some ignorant a** said. As For Lviv ignorant people should also stop saying it's Polish that's Ukrainian land, our present day borders in the east as well as in the west are correct, two Slavic nations like Poland and Ukraine should definitely be friends. We get along, live together in other countries but can't at home? that seams silly.
Nathan 18 | 1,363
24 Dec 2010 #208
Poles don't think they're better than anybody

Well, I wish it was at least true for you. Here are a few statements you made that "support" your ideas:

what did Ukraine have and what does it have today? no culture, no sovereignty, no money, so what exactly is amusing you Nathan?

Secondly who the hell Ukraine has that can compare to scientists and discoverers like Maria Sklodowska-Curie, Copernicus, Stefan Drzewiecki, Ignacy Lukasiewicz.

When I mentioned Ukrainian scientists and discoverers you even didn't grant me your reply which would have been necessary after ruthless claims of yours.

two Slavic nations like Poland and Ukraine should definitely be friends. We get along, live together in other countries but can't at home? that seams silly.

Agree with you absolutely on this one. Merry Christmas.
Ironside 51 | 11,337
25 Dec 2010 #209
By constantly writing their immature attacks against Lithuanians and Ukrainians

what kind of ivory tower you live in kid?

will finally get out of the sand-box and grow up.

Look who is talking ! The world as you see it doesn't exists!neither does Ukrainian nation - not in the way you try to sell.

They know how it all end up.

do they? do you ? seer = 2 cents for a dozen !

The best bet would be to cuddle together in love and harmony, otherwise: a soccer ball between the West and RF :)

twiddle twiddle doom ! gee kid you are mad as a hare in march !

As For Lviv ignorant people should also stop saying it's Polish that's Ukrainian land,

You are an ignorant Amerykanin!

two Slavic nations like Poland and Ukraine should definitely be friends.

And the world should be at peace and all humans brothers - what a wonderful world it would be !

that seams silly.

only to silly people !
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
25 Dec 2010 #210
When I mentioned Ukrainian scientists and discoverers you even didn't grant me your reply which would have been necessary after ruthless claims of yours.

I know a famous still living Ukrainian writer who live in Germany if only i could remember his name...


Home / History / Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage...
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