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Lwów, Wilno ... kresy - Poland have lost enormoust part of our heritage...


Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,019
2 Jan 2011 #301
Come...let it rest...it's history now...

Think of it, what possibilites would Germany have if it created an free independent Poland with close ties/alliance to Germany? I think a lot of troops would rebelled during ww1 and help the central powers? A lot of Americans would not be on Entente also!

1-2 more million happy volunteering soldiers fighting by your side. With over natural zeal to crush your enemy: Tsarist Russia. Do you think there was an option to do this BB?

Secured eastern front + millions of non-hostile Poles and lots of food! Hmmm? :)

90% of teachers and students were polish

Polish? ;) Not Ruthenian, Jewish or Austrian? Gosh the Austrians were weird
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,342
2 Jan 2011 #302
Do you think there was an option to do this BB?

Secured eastern front + millions of non-hostile Poles and lots of food! Hmmm? :)

Hitler for sure thought so...he was till high in the summer '39 still willing to give up all german claims for an agreement with Warsaw!

But Poland trusted their Britain and France completely.

PS: It wouldn't had been a first. For an agreement with Stalin Hitler gave up german territory in the Baltics. Germans were forced to leave their homes for political interests....Hitler made them do that.

He would had changed the tone with Poland also very quickly would they had been more compromising.
Mr Grunwald 33 | 2,019
2 Jan 2011 #303
Hitler for sure thought so...

That was too late, Poland was "free" already

He would had changed the tone with Poland also very quickly would they had been more compromising.

I was talking about pre-ww1 during partitions, an option of cooperation with Hitler was unacceptable especially being drugged by Britts&Frenchies
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
2 Jan 2011 #304
Hitler for sure thought so...he was till high in the summer '39 still willing to give up all german claims for an agreement with Warsaw!
But Poland trusted their Britain and France completely.

Rubbish, there was no signal given to Poland nor any official consideration, there was a single remark to Beck in regards to possible partition of Ukraine but thats it.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,342
2 Jan 2011 #305
What do you think Hitler did before and after taking part in Pilsudksis funeral Sok?
They had been quite friendly....they surely talked! ;)

Hitler would have given up most of the claims...as Poland was leaning more to France and GB he chose to ally for the time being with the Soviets instead (and he gave up the german baltics for that)...but it could have/should have been Poland....only one enemy at the time!

Buchanan wrote a book about it: amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/030740515X/forthecause-20

There was a last ultimatum even only a few days before the war started....things would had gone differently if Poland had agreed.
Torq
2 Jan 2011 #306
He would had changed the tone with Poland also very quickly would they had been more compromising.

He probably would. Seeing as he allied with Romania, Hungary, Slovakia or Croatia, I can't
see why he shouldn't consider Poland a valuable ally (especially that 50-55 Polish divisions,
commanded by officers who were the victorious Polish-Soviet war veterans, might really
have made a difference in the crucial moment of War in the East.)

Rubbish, there was no signal given to Poland nor any official consideration, there was a single
remark to Beck in regards to possible partition of Ukraine but thats it.

Well, I read many articles, including one very recently (in "Fronda", I think) that would seem
to confirm BB's words. Poland was repeatedly offered to join the crusade against SU and even
in 1939 unofficial negotiations were conducted, but Poland kept faith in their British and French
"allies", and we all know how it ended.

By the way - I'm not saying that Poland should have allied herself with Hitler's Germany,
but we paid a VERY high price for opposing him and sometimes I wonder if that price was
not too high.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,342
2 Jan 2011 #307
Yeah...people keep wondering.

If it hadn't been the Nazis...no Hitler...we could really had kicked the commies together!
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
2 Jan 2011 #308
Well, I read many articles, including one very recently (in "Fronda", I think) that would seem
to confirm BB's words.

Wishfull thinking by extreme right, facts are Ribbentrop dropped a line to Beck that said Black Sea is also a sea that referred to shifting Poland eastwards, away from the Baltic and giving it Ukraine and Black Sea instead but nothing hard followed.

Poland was repeatedly offered to join the crusade against SU and even
in 1939 unofficial negotiations were conducted, but Poland kept faith in their British and French
"allies", and we all know how it ended.

Again castles on ice built on that single remark by Ribbentrop, there's no hard evidence that such talks were even attempted or even considered.

Now if such talks were attempted and Germany allowed Poland some limited access to the Baltic, but Germans wanted the cake not a slice so its wishfull thinking.
Torq
2 Jan 2011 #309
If it hadn't been the Nazis...no Hitler...we could really had kicked the commies together!

Poland could have regained lost Kresy, grant some sort of autonomy to Ukraine and build
a common country with them. There would still be more than enough "lebensraum" for Germans,
and Russians would be better off in a new, communist-free Russia. Soviet Union wouldn't
have drawn the world into 45 years of Cold War. Jews (who would have wanted their own
country) would all had lived peacefully in Madagascar, which would have turned into
a prosperous, rich paradise under their smart leadership (instead of being drawn into a bloody,
never-ending conflict with Palestinians) and we would have a European Union, uniting Eurasia
from Lisbon to Vladivostok on the Pacific Ocean, 45 years ago... I could go on.

A WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN situation.

If it hadn't been for Nazis and Hitler... oh, well.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
2 Jan 2011 #310
Poland could have regained lost Kresy, grant some sort of autonomy to Ukraine and build
a common country with them.

I daresay IF there was such an alliance Poland would have stomped hard on Ukrainians, they were a nuisance more than a potential ally.

Jews (who would have wanted their own
country) would all had lived peacefully in Madagascar, which would have turned into
a prosperous, rich paradise under their smart leadership

And then we could get them all with just one nuke!
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,342
2 Jan 2011 #311
facts are Ribbentrop dropped a line to Beck that said Black Sea is also a sea that referred to shifting Poland eastwards, away from the Baltic and giving it Ukraine and Black Sea instead but nothing hard followed.

Because the Poles didn't reacted....

A WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN situation.

If it hadn't been for Nazis and Hitler... oh, well.

*sighs*

Now...where did I put my time machine...
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
2 Jan 2011 #312
A WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN-WIN situation.

How long before ethnic strife started to tear the continent apart, though?

By the way - I'm not saying that Poland should have allied herself with Hitler's Germany, but we paid a VERY high price for opposing him and sometimes I wonder if that price was not too high.

It may have actually been a smart move - the problem would have been his territorial demands. But then again - with Poland free to take whatever she wanted in the East after a Russian defeat, along with staying well clear of Germany - it may just have worked. Hitler may also have preferred to have Poland carrying out the dirty work.

The question here would be - could Poland exist with expanded land to the east and the loss of quite a bit of the Western/South-Western territory?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
2 Jan 2011 #313
Because the Poles didn't reacted....

Because you dont react to something like that unless its backed by an initiative, it was not.

What did you expect Poles to jump and go "hooorayyy" and give up half of their country because the german foreign minister gave them a finger? In these matters you go all the way or not at all, you dont drop foggy remarks, its pretty clear that while somewhere in the nazi leadership floated the idea of drawing Poland into the Axis it was never considered seriously or we'd hear more from the german side.

The question here would be - could Poland exist with expanded land to the east and the loss of quite a bit of the Western/South-Western territory?

Poland was on every field the most powerfull central/eastern political entity bar Russia, with Russia gone it could have done whatever the f*ck it wanted and thrive.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
2 Jan 2011 #314
Of course, Hitler's price would have been giving up any territories considered to be German - so bye bye Silesia, bye bye "Polish corridor" and so on. As for thrive - it would have been intact, but still a German vassal.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
2 Jan 2011 #315
Thats... questionable, Poland with time to grow has historically proven to be an equal at least so the loss of Silesia might have been historically... temporary :)
Torq
2 Jan 2011 #316
it was never considered seriously or we'd hear more from the german side.

Didn't Ribbentrop offer Poland to extend the non-aggression pact from 10 to 25 years and
join the anti-comintern pact in 1938? That's what they taught us on history in high-school,
anyway. Supposedly, the same proposal was repeated again in 1939 to our ambassador,
by Hitler himself, but Poland firmly refused.

I think the alliance between Poland and Germany might have happened if we weren't
manipulated by France and Great Britain into believing that they would actually help us.
We had too much trust in our own army too. We didn't predict that we will fight being
completely encircled, against an enemy using a new blitzkrieg tactics. Also, facing both
Wehrmacht and the Red Army was something not even Wojsko Polskie could stand for
too long.

Anyway - it's only history now and as long as we learn from it (to ally ourselves with
Germany next time ;)) we'll be OK.
Bratwurst Boy 12 | 12,342
2 Jan 2011 #317
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Comintern_Pact#cite_note-p.343-1

The Pact was to be originally introduced in late November 1935 with invitations for Britain, Italy, China and Poland to join.[2]

Hitler also made an effort to influence the Poles into joining the Anti-Comintern Pact and spoke of his intention to settle territorial disputes between Germany and Poland.[7][8][9][10][11] However, Poland refused Germany's terms, fearing that an alliance with Hitler would render Poland a German puppet state.

Well...they became a puppet state nonetheless...

Hitler's efforts to develop relations with Britain also failed. In August 1939, Germany broke the terms of the Anti-Comintern Pact when the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact was signed, making a non-aggression agreement between the Soviet Union and Germany official.

Anyway - it's only history now and as long as we learn from it (to ally ourselves with
Germany next time ;)) we'll be OK.

Well..we learned something!
Mercedes/Audi/BMW have a better chance of longterm success than Panzers! ;)
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
2 Jan 2011 #318
Where's Nathan? He must be getting ready for the Orthodox new year :-)
PennBoy 76 | 2,436
2 Jan 2011 #320
Yes my mistake i was sure they had Christmas already.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
2 Jan 2011 #321
I think the alliance between Poland and Germany might have happened if we weren't manipulated by France and Great Britain into believing that they would actually help us.

Any idea if it's known who the Polish leaders considered to be the worse enemy - Germany or Russia?
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Jan 2011 #322
Both, both wanted Poland to end, Piłsudski considered Russia a greater threat (and was right).
Torq
3 Jan 2011 #323
Mercedes/Audi/BMW have a better chance of longterm success than Panzers! ;)

Oh, absolutely! Those Panzers are so overrated, you know. I think you can give us
all those completely useless Leopards of yours (they take so much fuel and all.)
As good friends, we will take this burden from your hands ;)

Any idea if it's known who the Polish leaders considered to be the worse enemy - Germany or Russia?

Well, Soviet Union was probably seen as the greater threat, but generally Poland had the idea
of creating a counterbalance for both Germany and SU, by the alliance with France and GB.
I am still angry with our politicians for their immense stupidity. If even such a retarded
corporal as Hitler saw clearly that France and GB wouldn't move a finger to help Poland,
then how could our leaders, generals and politicians not see it? Over 70 years have passed
and I still can't believe their idiocy.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Jan 2011 #324
Considering that the French sat on their hands while Germany, Poland, and Hungary invaded their ally Czechoslovakia...and that their entire military strategy was based around fighting a defensive war, it shouldn't have come as much of a surprise.

Regarding GB, treaties signed a month before an invasion as an obvious political maneuver don't usually turn out too well...
Torq
3 Jan 2011 #325
Germany, Poland, and Hungary invaded their ally Czechoslovakia

Poland DID NOT invade Czechoslovakia. We simply incorporated, with the accord of Czech
government, some lands that were previously taken from us. The Czechs saw their mistake
and decided to do the right thing, by giving the stolen lands back. Fair play to them for
that. If they weren't so hostile towards us since regaining their independence, who knows,
maybe we would even help them with Germany in 1938?

it shouldn't have come as much of a surprise

EXACTLY.

Was it the immense trust in Wojsko Polskie - considered unbeatable, after their victory 20 years
earlier against the Soviets? Was it the underestimation of Germany's strength?
Was it really the trust in our "allies"??? I mean, come on... that's just incomprehensible to me.
convex 20 | 3,978
3 Jan 2011 #326
Poland DID NOT invade Czechoslovakia.

I wouldn't say that threatening your neighbors with force while the Nazis and Hungarians rolled in and your country was on the brink of civil was the "Czechs seeing their mistake and doing the right thing". Apparently it was celebrated as a huge success of Polish strength at the time, maybe you've got better info than me. Anyway, we're going way OT I suppose.

Back to the lands that were "liberated" and given to Ukrainian and Belorussian minorities during Poland's moment of struggle :)
Torq
3 Jan 2011 #327
while the Nazis and Hungarians rolled in

"Rolled in"? More like walked in, in a relaxed manner, unharassed by the Czech army (which
was quite strong at that time, by the way.)
hague1cmaeron 14 | 1,377
3 Jan 2011 #328
no wonder he try to sell his nation as an ancient entity, rich in culture and history with plenty of great people !
Well, they could stick to the truth - that they are freshmen on the nationhood - that would be good for them !

O come now Ironside, that is just a little bit unfair isn't it? Some of them love to indulge in the culture of other nations. Take for instance this little footage of Ukrainians recently commemorating Stalin with a statue.
delphiandomine 88 | 18,454
3 Jan 2011 #329
Was it the immense trust in Wojsko Polskie - considered unbeatable, after their victory 20 years earlier against the Soviets?

This is my personal opinion - that they massively overestimated just what the Polish Army was capable of. In all fairness, people talk about Russia invading Poland and this is what broke Poland - but Poland was already staring defeat in the face by Germany alone by September 17th. I don't think it takes a genius to work out that Stalin waited until Poland was there for the taking before invading - heck, he repeated that performance with the Warsaw Uprising!

This map is quite interesting - en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Dywizje_wrzesien_1.png

One thing that strikes me is just how indefensible the border with Germany actually was.
Sokrates 8 | 3,346
3 Jan 2011 #330
"Rolled in"? More like walked in, in a relaxed manner, unharassed by the Czech army (which
was quite strong at that time, by the way.)

You know dude i wonder when you're gonna get back Torqs nickname, ******* troll:)

Czechs army was weak.

This is my personal opinion - that they massively overestimated just what the Polish Army was capable of.

Luckily thats just your personal opinion.


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